http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why is tunneling an issue with Onryo but not any other killer?
Shouldn't we look into tunneling in general...? Incentivize spreading hooks maybe?
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Weird thing is, uncapped hook condemned lock did inspire more hooking as opposed to tunneling. If anything, now you have to tunnel to keep those stacks up and not risk survivors lowering it back down to 2, especially with how easy it is to do tapes since they have no downside now.
And I agree, tunneling is a symptom of the game itself, be it killers who feel too weak to attempt to spread hook pressure, killers with powers blatantly too powerful for tunneling, and reworks like this one making most feel as if it's the best approach to being nerfed.
Edit: I forgot to mention those who will absolutely tunnel no matter if it's smart or not to do just because they can/want to, in which case no change is going to stop them.
Post edited by ChaosWam on9 -
This is the thing that annoys me most about the nerfs -- the illogical justification for it.
There are a number of other killers whose powers facilitate camping and tunneling (and other unfun strategies) far more than Onryō. Wesker for one, is a beat at tunneling.
And then there's Nurse and Blight, who have chase powers so oppressive that they can shred through any anti-tunneling measures in seconds. As a killer with no chase power, Onryō is never going to be as good at tunneling as a strong Nurse or Blight.
It's all very odd to me.
Post edited by OnryosTapeRentals on8 -
i think their logic was not explained correctly. what the post is trying to say is that lock on stack system encourage player to tunnel because every time you get new lock on stacks, your encouraged to lock in the new lock on stacks. for example, if someone has 4 condemn stacks and you tp back to the hook, now the player has 5 condemn stacks +1 stack to lock in. Suppose they go into another TV spot, you TP, now they have 6 stacks. Now you 2 more stacks to lock-in. 4+2. Once they get unhooked, same process occurs, you tp again, your incline to lock-in new stacks and so on.
the condemn system is suppose encourage to spread pressure then after enough condemn has been spread, then the killer can decided spot 1 player that is weak link and choose to focus/tunnel that player. The new Sadako doesn't encourage spreading pressure in her gameplay at all. there is no ring drawing to do so.
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That logic is only worse if Sadakos know that they have more than 2 stacks off hook with the new system. It would become more of a problem since with the addition of the condemned cooldown, targeting the highest stack survivor becomes a major focus to condemn and get out of the match ASAP if they're ignoring the tapes.
And tunneling them off hook with the locked in 2 stacks + whatever else they may have makes it more of a bonus instead of spreading more condemned to the other survivors for late game pressure due to time. Really I'm starting to question lock-in stacks entirely if either case is as oppressive as the devs claim, because I see condemned cooldown a far worse problem in the long run since it cuts down Sadako's slowdown. If anything, both of them together really discourage spreading pressure to more than 2 survivors. Especially with how easy it is to shut down the condemned spam without the cooldown in the first place.
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The most hysterical thing is that they nerf Onryo to mitigate tunnelling BUT have no issues gutting STBFL by making the perk at it's best and encouraging tunnelling even more than before.
I heard this theory that the Devs do test the new features during the PTB themselves and that whatever changes at release is based mostly on their tests and further (more complex and precise) changes down the line are based on actual feedback from the community after people had time to get exposed to the changes for longer.
Let's also not forget that, unless console players keep/have access to two different accounts, then console players don't have access to the PTB and console players are the majority of the playerbase so it kinda makes sense in a sad way.
Post edited by Skillfulstone on5 -
I am not sure who this rework is for because even @radiantHero23 does not like rework. I don't think dev understand what he was asking for his request and I can only interrupt his posts from discussions i have had with him.
He had 3 major complaints about Current Sadako which boils down to singular global complaint. His global complaint is that Sadako is too focused on macro play[Condemn] and does not reward killer for micro play. What are these micro plays that I am referencing?
1) He does not like that Sadako has no good chase power. Part of his request was that he wanted Sadako to have a better chasing ability(He was upset that Rekiro watch got nerfed). He wanted her micro chase play to be buffed. So he is complained that her chase micro play is not good.
2) His second complaint was that all of Sadako's good add-on revolved around Condemn build-up. He wanted add-on rework on some of her worse add-on. In particular, he wanted Sadako to be a better stealth killer. He doesn't like lullaby. He is complaining about her micro stealth gameplay.
3) His 3rd final complaint is a bit complicated. It was difficult for me to understand it but his essential complaint is that survivor at live take tapes out of televisions which turn TV off. He doesn't like that survivors are taking takes out of televisions which limit her mobility. As secondary, he dislike teleportation cooldown. This complaint is regarding Micro TV gameplay.
Did the dev deliver his requests?
The answer is they delivered two minor requests. They increased base invis from 1.0 to 1.2 and they removed TV cooldown. for delivering these two buffs, they nerfed everything else. So now killer is extremely weak like freddy tier-weak where killer is complete m1 with TV teleport instead of gen teleport.
Now you just need wait for mid-chapter changes. I made post here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/403099/sadako-suggested-changes-my-version-of-onryo#latest talking about what I would change to merge New Sadako with Old Sadako. The post got buried. the number in the post was experimental with possible subject to change.
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I have not always seen eye to eye with most other Onryo mains, considering I can defend certain aspects of current live Sadako (but hate other aspects like slug condemned) but it makes me happy there's enough people who genuinely support her being in a good spot. I was extremely happy most of us and survivors liked the PTB Sadako, after a looooooooooong time of hearing how boring current Sadako is and how weak old Sadako was.
These upcoming changes are terrible, and I agree with radiantHero23 on these points as well as many other Sadako players who have expressed their concerns. And it's not like I want Sadako to be oppressive to survivors either, I really liked going against her in the PTB too. But there definitely needs to be a carrot/stick tradeoff that makes sense in a 1v4 scenario and throwing in unneeded nerfs to her kit specifically over aspects of the game that's specific to the game like tunneling or condemned spam that can be countered by taking a tape that is no longer a downside to grab seems like too much stick and not enough carrot. Especially with Iridescent Tape, the carrot gets replaced with a plastic one.
And honestly that analogy goes for however you'd balance her. If you take away more of her condemned pressure, you need something to compensate that makes sense. Goes for any killer really.
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so the reason why i did not think much of these point has to do with the fact condemn mechanic is so strong that the killer did not need better chase, stronger televisions teleports or better stealth in average public game. My post does illustrate how i would approach buffing those aspects of the killer.
I didn't really enjoying ptb sadako. the survivor games felt like I was getting handheld with aura from televisions and faster interactions. The billy games were most interesting. Blight games felt overly oppressive with all blight's running iri tag and c33.
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Why is tunneling an issue with Onryo but not any other killer? Shouldn't we look into tunneling in general...?
Sure bHVR should and they would if they were working on changing another Killers power which made tunneling the best strategy.
But in this patch Hillbilly does not have a big problem, such as Sadako does.
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Of course I know what I thought of the rework. What are you talking about? I adored her original version, despised the original rework and this was very close to her original self. Of course I liked it.
1) I wanted her chase to be buffed. How? LONGER INVISIBILITY DURATION. Nothing more. That's it.
2) I want her addons to be useful. Most of them do absolutely nothing. That had nothing in particular to do with stealth. I find her stealth to be ok. The change, that she can start chase while demanifested was more than enough for me personally.
3) I did never say that I dislike survivors shutting off TVs. If you can find where I said that, show it to me and I'll explain. This is counterplay that is absolutely necessary. YES. I dislike a cooldown on teleporting. This hampers her ability and maker her extremely clunky. Both the application of condemned and teleporting. I'm 100% against that.
My other requests in the Ptb feedback all got ignored. Pls look it up if you don't believe me.
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I did never say that I dislike survivors shutting off TVs. If you can find where I said that, show it to me and I'll explain. This is counterplay that is absolutely necessary.
you said enjoyed "guessing" what generator to teleport on to ambush survivors on gens and corralling survivors into televisions. global condemn mechanic obstructed your ability to do that because of the TV's being turned off from survivors acquiring tapes. either way, the feedback that you give is difficult to understand. I want to avoid any disagreements. my post is an attempted summary to understand your point of view on the killer.
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I already summarized all my points in the Ptb feedback. I wrote 3 hours. Don't make me repeat all that please. I pointed out what was awesome about the rework and what had to be changed.
I encourage you to please read what I wrote there. It took a long time and was well thought out.
The global condemned mechanic made me chasing survivors into TVs irrelevant because they got condemned no matter what. Not because they where turned off. There is no difference between chasing someone into a TV and teleport owing to the other side of the map. The survivor would get condemned nonetheless. That eliminated a lot of gameplay from both sides. This was my point about global condemned.
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Onryo could skip quite a few steps when she tunneled with her power. Not a single hook needed to be made, similar to old Pig.
That doesn't mean tunneling isn't a problem with other killers, but it does mean it's a bigger problem with her.
Same way 3 gens were a bigger problem with old Skull Merchant.
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You can‘t tunnel someone, when you don‘t hook someone!
The lock in mechanic was there as incentivize to hook and now it’s just a bad mechanic.
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