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So BHVR nerfed Sadako without any buffs
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This is sounding familiar. I don't play Sadako, but my friend mains her, @MechWarrior3 . He's very good with her. I know that when I versed Sadako's in pubs which was just slightly more common than versing a Trickster, as long as everybody grabbed a tape at the beginning of the match you could put a lot of pressure on a baby Sadako or even intermediate Sadako. She was strong but not impossible to deal with. If more hooking was the goal, then where is the incentive to do so? I also can't help but wonder if this is another case of survivors trying to verse each killer the exact same way, instead of doing the appropriate counterplay for that particular killer or adjusting during the match, causing misinformation and nerfs in areas that weren't needed. Im not saying that its all on the survivor mains, but the patch notes reads like Sadako mains are in trouble. lol And also agreed. PTB is not a good tester, because the queue times are horrendous, so most people dont jump in there as a swf, nor do they go in to play for "money". The real test is live pubs and even then you need to give people time to adjust and develop counter play, if they can. If they can' then you can adjust.
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The tapes weren't touched at all and Sadako was effectively nerfed
The tapes did change. previously in old iteration, you had a passive that gave you 1 condemn stack every 30 seconds when holding a tape. In current iteration, this passive was removed and traded for different passive where you gain 2 stacks of condemn when sadako successfully basic attacks a survivor when carrying a tape.
What does this version of Sadako have in relationship to carrying a tape?
Nothing. They straight up removed the passive with no positive. The tapes did change, they changed positive for survivor with no upside for killer.
heck I'd even argue with the hook condemned cap and condemned having a cooldown, tapes were massively buffed since you don't need to grab them as often.
they restrict her mobility. the loss of condemn is more insult to injury. Icing on the cake. the passive already lost all threat value. nobody at good-level survivor was going get mori'd before death hook in ptb version.
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My entire argument on this topic comes from PTB Sadako to upcoming release Sadako. Tapes were not changed between PTB and this upcoming release notes.
Your entire argument is based on you saying the changes coming are good for Sadako:
No cooldown teleportation promoted spamming teleport mindlessly with no decision making or thought process. The lock condemn stack promoted tunneling survivor off-hook and slugging people next to TV's to finish the 7 stacks of condemn on the "Locked Condemn" survivor.
These were grossly problematic designs in PTB Sadako. All the change are justified.
How can you defend the hook lock and condemned cooldown when with this update, tapes have no downsides to taking, you can see TV auras within 16m, and tapes can be inserted in 1 second in front of her? Condemned was easily countered by taking a tape and denying that TV and it's 16m range, that was entirely my point with this. In the PTB you could get decent stacks and buy yourself time since survivors had to respect it and exchange tapes, or prevent it by taking tapes early to protect their gens. I mean even the tunneling condemned thing has been debunked by a lot of players at this point.
Honestly you're starting to confuse me on what your stance is here.
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hook only lock 2 stacks.
if some survivors have 4 or 5 stacks, hook it but only lock 2 stacks.
they unhook but BHVR think Sadako will chase another survivor, but most killer won't.
because if take down that survivor, hook it it will lock another 2 stacks, there have 4 lock stacks in here.
but lock for what? 7 stacks execute? it already have 2 hook.
Sadako now is just that the weaker executioner doesn't even have the Partition Wall Damage power.
Transmission? A survivor can turn off all TVs for 70 seconds is useless power.
Inserting the tape into the corresponding TV is nerf for Sadako, meaning that the survivor only needs 1 stack to greatly reduce Sadako's power.
If BHVR continue nerf a killer just because most of the survivors don't know how to deal with the killer's abilities (Those survivors didn't even play as killer single match)
don't make the killer power complex (For those never play killer stupid survivor)
hillbilly、huntresses power is Straightforward for those stupid survivors, dodge it is easy, hit by it is not good.
blight power is complex for those stupid survivors is too complex, when dodge it? how it work? they never play they never know, they just want nerf blight so they can Escape. No matter how bad they play.
BHVR：I think we did a pretty good j——ob so far.
(The frequent changes have left most of the survivors who don't read the update notes, dying every match, screaming nerf the killer, and even that killer as weak as #########.)
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In the PTB you could get decent stacks and buy yourself time since survivors had to respect it and exchange tapes, or prevent it by taking tapes early to protect their gens.
not my experience. i wasn't able to get any condemn kills vs good survivors. I had scottjund experience which was that when you face a good team, you get no condemn kills. the tape counter is too strong. That is why the changes are confusing because they nerfed a killer that already sucked.
If you play public ptb which typical features weaker survivor players, then you will stomp lobby by spamming TV teleport's. that is why they added condemn cooldown. What was newbie stomp mechanic in the ptb is now a mechanic that does absolutely nothing now.
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Then I ask again, why did you say the changes were necessary when it seems your gripe is how strong tapes and taking them are when they also didn't get changed at all with this upcoming update?
My experience in PTB was very different. Thanks to uncapped hook condemned, I was able to use it as a pressure tool when teleporting mid chases and mentally checking when TVs would turn back on to apply more condemned. Especially as survivors wandered the map and get struck by it every teleport until I find their target TV and get 3-4 stacks locked onto someone for choosing correctly. It was a very great mid to late game tool.
And honestly, I take Scott's input with a grain of salt considering he more than likely didn't play a lot of Sadako before. Even his recent video he admits to as much and 'started to get into it' during the PTB. I also highly disagree with his take on condemned having a timer being good, it just incentivizes ignoring condemned even more.
Edit: And again, we shouldn't base massive changes on survivors who refuse to interact with the counter mechanics. They are not a good representation of balancing a power.
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why did you say the changes were necessary when it seems your gripe is how strong tapes and taking them are when they also didn't get changed at all with this upcoming update?
I already answered my problem with rework. This was my answer:
I dislike entire Onryo rework because there is no substance gameplay left on either side. The killer has no skill expression in applying condemn/manipulating condemn to be more effective and survivor has no skill expression in deleting the ability. The killer is spoon fed condemn stacks for existing and survivor is spoon fed the counter-play.
Condemn cooldown just prevents mechanic from stomping weaker survivors.
And again, we shouldn't base massive changes on survivors who refuse to interact with the counter mechanics. They are not a good representation of balancing a power.
The entire rework primary goal is to allow survivors that play poorly to win.
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I don't understand how the Devs could have interpreted what I saw as an OUTBURST of positive feedback from the community - former Sadako mains were rejoicing and survivors had fun and liked the rework - as the need to needlessly nerf her. I'm not sure what her numbers on Live servers are now, but this rework is definitely a nerf, but it brought back a sense of her old playstyle with significant buffs. It was a fantastic compromise. My comparison forum post has vanished without explaination, but I saw plenty of posts here praising BHVR about the PTB.
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I honestly can't take this seriously anymore when "Condemn cooldown just prevents mechanic from stomping weaker survivors." and "The entire rework primary goal is to allow survivors that play poorly to win." is in the same argument. I can't explain again how taking a tape isn't something strong survivors do, it's the basic counterplay.
Skill expression arguments are fine, Sadako is an M1 killer and suffers the same skill ceiling as other M1 killers with a twist on her manifest intermittent invisibility, timing anti-stun demanifests and mentally checking condemned and TVs. Her core is still an M1 killer. But I cannot justify nerfs to something that has a built in counterplay to them that's extremely simple to do. Walk to a TV and take a tape. Can be done between teleports. Tape exchanges are quick and easy and you just have to mindgame an M1 killer.
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taking a tape is basic counter-play but rework dumb down the tapes the gameplay so much so that the gameplay for survivor is too easy for experienced survivors. The weaker survivor player won't use tapes effectively thus still dying to condemn mechanic. Having a noob-stomp mechanic that does nothing for high-level but obliterates the casual beginner survivor team is unhealthy. that is why i support their change even if it is not good change.
Sadako is an M1 killer
it is not about being an m1 killer. it is about how applying condemn is skill-less mechanic now that is automated. Being good as Condemn Sadako is same as being Day 1 Sadako. The gameplay depth of the character is gone.
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Dying to condemned is 100% on the survivor if they ignore the tapes.
It isn't a matter of 'low tier' and 'high tier' when the counter is grabbing a tape at bare minimum. At best, survivors shouldn't fall for it more than a few times until they understand how it works. If survivors fail to grasp that for so long, it's on BHVR for not giving enough information. Heck, it's less 'automated' now that it isn't global.
Condemned is meant to be her threat and slowdown. That's like asking to remove Pyramid Head's mechanics because of the mori. Or trapper's traps because new players keep stepping in them. Or more accurately, Pig's headtraps because low skill survivors die to the trap. We can't cater to the majority of a bad playerbase or else basic mid tier matches are going to suffer hard.
And once again I ask, how is nerfing her helping with anything you want to begin with? She wasn't given a chase power, her tapes weren't given downsides, and condemned spread is even worse with the same, as you put 'skilless' mechanic.
Post edited by ChaosWam on5 -
I don't like the Condemn Spread Cooldown, because like you guys even said in the post, it was Clever and we had to be smart about how we used it.
I feel like just revert her state back to what she was on the PTB, but please PLEASE make the tape insertion 2 seconds again.
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I don’t care about a chase power. Not every killer needs that. Just make her condemn functional. It’s a curse. It should be dealt with.
I hope they fix her…again.. but the right way. They had it, but slipped away
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The PTB version of Onryo was in a pretty good spot but still needed a few buffs, not nerfs as she was noticeably weaker. I did see that you acknowledged on Twitter that you heard the feedback and will be hotfixing Onryo after the midchapter goes live. We appreciate that a lot. Using the PTB as the baseline, here are my suggestions:
Make the new ring drawing add-on basekit. I think this is the most critical change that needs to be made. Making it so when you hook a survivor with a tape, the other survivors get a stack of condemned encourages Onryo to both hook survivors and to go after other survivors who now have an extra stack (instead of tunneling the hooked survivor). It also adds an actual risk to carrying a tape. This is such a healthy change it should be strongly considered.
Improve the killer's UI elements. Make it so when survivors gain a stack of condemned, their ring flashes a different color. Make the holding a tape indicator a different color as well. Since hooking now locks in stacks, it would be nice if the UI can tell us what survivors are worth hooking. I'm not asking to see the survivors' stacks. Just a generic indicator that lets the Onryo know that a survivor has passed a threshold of new stacks that can be locked in. I'm thinking it should show up when a survivor has 2 or more stacks not locked in.
Remove the ability of survivors to see the auras of nearby active TVs. This kills her teleport surprise stealth potential as survivors can just watch the nearby TV aura and run early when it vanishes. Survivors can still see the icon of the TV they need to deliver their tape to.
And that's it for me. I know many others have also mentioned wanting the tape insertion time to be increased, but I'm not sure how badly that would affect her tunneling potential so I'm not going to weigh in on that. Thanks again for listening to the feedback!
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This is because survivors were frustrated at PTB. The management has also sent out in the past that killers should play as if they were taking a walk, so they must have followed that policy.
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The devs basically stated: They want people to play like current live Onryo works, no thinking just spamming!
Post edited by Rizzo on2 -
The problems I have had when going against current Sadako is the loop of teleport>hit survivors to drop tapes>teleport plus something like Ruin or Surge makes it nearly impossible to cleanse Condemn and do the objective.
Sadako should certainly be strong and threatening on her own, but not so much so that survivors can't play the game.
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Oh yeah, I get that. Current Sadako was obnoxiously good at generating condemn pressure. Sloppy Butcher and any other slowdown made her very hard to play around in SoloQ.
However if you knew what you were doing, you could play around her and make her kinda weak. New Sadako in the PTB addressed that problem, her condemn could be built up well, but survivors could counter it reasonably. She had to make a more concerted effort to get condemn stacks, but by the same token the survivors had to take more time off gens to manage their condemn.
At the end of the day, she's a basic m1 killer with no chase power/anti loop. Like the Pig she needs slow down to compensate for her weak chase. With these changes, she doesn't even have decent slow down, because like before Survivors could mostly ignore tapes and rush gens against her.
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Until i see these adjustments, im not getting my hopes up. Im tired of getting disappointed.
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Please just stop at this point. Your just putting salt in the open wound at this point.
If someones down, dont kick them.
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All part of the feedback. They know about these problems.
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I love how you told me tapes had some risk to them in the ptb, only for the devs to literally made a change that shows how utterly easy it is to use tapes without any drawback.
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They had. Not anymore though. I suggested what would make them more threatening. We see how far that got us.
All I can do I suggest changes. When the worst case scenario happens, I'm not to blame.
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All I ever wanted for sadako was the same old version, but to have TVs condemn everyone within 16 meters. Keep the passive punishment for tapes. It’s such a neat feature.
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It would be so cool getting our old beloved ghost back. Mostly her old addons and how everything worked.
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I agree
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
Indeed my friend
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Changes that need to happen:
1. Scrap the lock on and condemned nerf
2. Return the tape inserting and picking speeds back to 2 seconds.
3. Remove the "all survivors see all TVs" thing. Then only need to see the one they need to put a tape into.
4. Buff iri videotape. It sucks rn
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💯% agree
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Singularity can at least place pods mid-chase and still get value.
With this version of Onryo, the survivors counterplay is so strong that survivors would have to mess up monstrously to get condemned.
BHVR needs to address how disproportionately her counterplay benefits survivors and hurts her. Survivors deny her condemn pressure and mobility at no cost which is a problem. At the very least BHVR needs to fix things like the 1s tape insert speeds and the ability of survivors to see TV auras at all times. Otherwise against survivors who understand her power, it will be way too hard to build condemn, and way too easy to remove it.
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When I played Onryo on the PTB there were way too many survivors that clearly didn't look at the notes for Sadako and only cared about Billy, and as a result got condemned easily by not turning off the TV they stood next to.
As an Onryo main myself, I understood her new power before jumping on the PTB. When the killer queues became too long after the first day, I played survivor the rest of the time. Since I understood her power I never once got condemned by her. The only time I got any significant condemn was when I ran around the map turning off all her TVs to see how bad the consequences would be. The counterplay is way to simple and easy if you know what to do. Which is why most of my PTB feedback towards the devs revolved around this issues regarding this and how to make her counterplay more balanced.
As you put it, when going against good teams, you will get no condemn kills since the counterplay is way too strong and forgiving towards survivors.
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100% agree with you on these. This is the bare minimum they must do. I just hope they will do it.
In fact I would be okay with keeping the condemn nerf, IF they weaken how strong her counterplay is for survivors right now, so that condemn can actually be a threat again.
Regarding Iri-Videotape, in my opinion the add-on is basically fine and balanced. I love the add-on change they made for it. However BHVR completely overlooked the ability of survivors to be able to turn off TVs with a tape. BHVR MUST make it so that, if Onryo is running this add-on, survivors cannot turn off or interact with any TV other than their assigned Target TV. Without this change its is incredibly easy for a survivors to run around the map turning off all the TVs, and denying your power for a long 84 seconds each, completely risk free.
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I agree with this 100% especially because I do play quite a bit of singularity!
I think it’s disgusting though seeing the condemn cool down when it’s not even global condemning anymore.
If they want to keep that cool down sure, but the TV she comes out of needs to condemn somebody in consider, reducing the condemn cooldown to seven seconds 🙏🏼
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I never blamed you, I was just showing how what you said at that time was incorrect, tapes have no risk even in ptb, the nerf just made it more apparent.
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I standby one of thoughts, bring back old tapes. I want passive condemn pressuring survivors to go deal with the tapes.
if so change Yoichis Fishing Net back.
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If BHVR refuses to address her strong counterplay in other ways, I would accept a passive condemn buildup for holding a tape, even if it is slower than it was on release.
However this discourages survivors from doing the counterplay again, and with global condemn lite, it could be a balancing issue in Sadako's favor. Passive condemn was fine on her release version where condemn could only apply directly at one TV location. However, I think passive condemn has no place in any version of Sadako which has a form of global condemn. Its a problem because it creates a position where survivors are punished if they take tapes and if they don't take tapes.
If they reincorporate passive condemn gain, they should return her kit to only spreading condemn to her Projection TV and not all powered TVs, maybe with some slight buffs like the condemn range being 18m basekit than 16m.
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I get what you’re saying completely, but it’s not exactly global when it subjugated to a TV within 16 m of range. And all the survivor has to do is turn the TV off.
They won’t have to worry about any further condemn from the TV, yes, they will have to worry about the passive condemn, but if they increased it the timer from what it used to be it’s not too big of a deal at all. It’s just a little added, slight pressure to get them to actually go put the tape in just holding onto it.
It’s not necessary for the tape to be destroyed or add unnecessary condemn, and that way I feel it would be punishing them either way, which is unhealthy for the survivor.
Edit - take out the first initial stack of condemn it gives survivors when they take a tape.
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If it's any consolation, despite our balance philosophies before, if this debacle has revealed anything it's shown how dedicated we all are about the killer we main. I salute you all for at least getting BHVR to notice their mistake, even if they decide to double down on it later or not.
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If they went back to the old old version, I would have made a that the condemned radius gets split in the parts. In the first (16-20m) you get 0,5 stacks, in the second radius (10-16m) 1 stack and in the last (0-10m) 2 stacks.
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I like your idea well enough but I'd go further, I don't find the cooldown necessary whatsoever. Survivors can see the auras of the TVs, they can see the aura of the 'blast radius' of that TV. If a survivor is being 'spammed', their options are to:
- turn it off (takes 1 second)
- just... leave
- stand there and let the mean ol' crafty clever sadako 'spam' the 'wrong' tvs until they get tunnelable :(
sorry to be so snarky but like, I don't quite know how to react to BHVR's decision when when it's so blind to reality.
It's the same with hooking and lock-in. Locking in 2 stacks totally defeats the purpose of the feature.
As for the TV interaction, I found it healthy (it made 'camping' TVs impossible which I liked), but absent strong lock-in, passive condemned, or rapid condemned build up of ANY kind, I guess it would need to come back to give her some kind of viable countermeasure.
The 10 second cooldown hurt most of all. Being able to rapidly condemn someone in chase was the whole point of the character, periods of no-condemned, and then you take advantage of a misplay and the game swings in your favor. It's the excitement and thrill of playing her for me.
10 second cooldown makes us a clock simulator again, you'd be wasting your time if you didn't try to use it off cooldown every chance you get. I'd unironically lose ranged condemned altogether if I could keep the other boons of PTB (hook lock-in, no CD, basekit reiko's and 70 second TV recharge)
I hope BHVR can see how these things work together to STRONGLY encourage slugging. We are sadly back to square one, the hook lock-in is killed once more and 10 second CD plagues us again but somehow worse.We went from a dream to... kind of the worst of both worlds :(
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I agree 💯. The cooldown on condemn ruined it for me. Totally ruins the flow of the character.
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I 100% agree. I just tried to find a middle ground.
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oof. guess its time to change the nerf the pig meme to nerf sadako instead lol. but for real this was dumb.
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Facts king!
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I agree, it needs to go. It ruins her fluidity. It’s a no go on the cooldown for condemn, very silly change.
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Totally. And you came up with a great solution if the CD was non-negotiable for BHVR, I'd be so down for that. But I don't understand why it would be necessary in the first place. Survivors have never had a more simple counter to this killer, it is quite possibly more simple than 'do pig box when scary trap is on head'...
and yet somehow... they felt compelled to defang her even more.
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As someone who really wants to play her, this is extremely disappointing. I've wanted to play her for a while now, but after his constant changes I just don't want to dig into that pile o' beans. I thought maybe after this PTB I might watch a guide or two to get into her finally, but now that everyones saying she's extremely weak, I don't know if I want to even try...
I'll just stick to good ol' bubs.
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I would resume your initial thoughts once she gets ironed out my friend. She has potential to be an amazing killer, the developers will iron her out to her strong and suitable for the game.
Of course, nobody is asking for an overpowered killer, but most people don’t even wanna play killer to begin with because the stress it already entails coming from a killer main, but somebody has to load into these lobbies
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I agree 💯 April. Also, I don’t know if you remember me, but you were my first guide ever in terms of original Sadako when I first started a year and four months months ago.
I use so many of your YouTube videos for advice and help. Then one day I bumped into One Pump Willie and he’s been helping me ever since!
Thank you so much though, getting me started, I never properly got to thank you for making me the main I am today. (P100)
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Yeah that's probably what I'm going to wait for, when she's in a good state. I am expecting another rework this mid-chapter, but who knows. They may even revert the changes that they made for the final PTB changes. She was well received for the most part, even OnePumpWillie liked her changes.
Don't know what "feedback" they were going off of, but I don't think anyone asked for these nerfs.
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