So BHVR nerfed Sadako without any buffs
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Mindless teleport spam would do nothing on the PTB version.
Any survivors outside of new players or low MRR would understand that they can just grab a tape next to the gen they are working on and then be completely safe from condemn. The counterplay is incredibly easy from the survivor side and requires little to no thought process.
The condemn locking is important to be uncapped due to how easy this counterplay is. Survivors can hold tapes without risk, they can work gens without risk. The only condemn risk for good survivors is realistically during chase, but with the TV auras and the 1 second tape insert speeds, you'd likely be able to just remove condemn most if not all of your condemn in her face before getting hooked.
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Anyone know who owns Sadako’s license and if they have socials? it might be an idea to let them know how unhappy we are with BHVR butchering her, maybe some pressure from them would help actually get our points across since they clearly don’t listen to us.
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You will find here, that very few if anyone will agree to what you just said. These changes are awful. Survivors once again will get to do whatever they want without consequence.
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On top of that she can’t see how many stacks they have, plus she has to hook them, if she can catch them with her loud lullaby, no chase power, or anti-loop ability.
And then they want to mention tunneling after creating a hook mechanic designed around her, condemn, but only to it?!?!
Is it hard to count how many stacks of condemn a person has no but it’s hard to keep up with everything at all times, everybody makes mistakes.
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Honestly everyone can try, but look at BHVR's track record. Look at Freddy, or Twins and how long it took to get them attention. Heck, Billy took years to finally be in a spot most everyone enjoys.
BHVR seems to just want to go by data with no thought toward general gameplay and it seems like they do it because it's easier than giving survivors the tools they need to learn how to counterplay killer powers. They turned a blind eye for a long time with current Sadako's condemned slugging, and even longer with her old condemned slugging.
More than likely this change will go through and we won't see anything for months. I don't even believe in their whole 'Watch List' thing because they've already mentioned keeping an eye on things before that went out of hand for too long. Even this line right here pretty much proves my point:
I don't say these things as a Sadako main at this point, this is purely coming from my point of view who plays survivor and killer in a 40/60 split. We all know there are worse offenders than PTB Sadako in the game and these nerfs were not justified. If they wanted to curb tunneling, the max they needed to do was a cap on locked-in condemned. Adding the cooldown is just insult to injury for those who liked the changes and those who like current Sadako.
Edit: Besides, is capping condemned really going to curb tunneling? What stops a Sadako from just doing it regardless of condemned?
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i want them to just flat out remove the license from bhvr. i would also encourage other license holders do the same if bhvr starts doing this to them. licensed killers should NOT be treated like this and if they are treated like this then bhvr does not deserve that license.
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it doesnt mess with tunneling. if anything its making her weaker for the people who dont tunnel
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I get where you are coming from but I don’t want to lose her entirely.
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Ok, no, this change has gone WAY too far. As a console player, I'm usually one to wait to try the changes myself since I don't have any way to do so before live release, and overall that's been alright. But this is complete overkill, this is totally unnecessary and unhealthy, and one doesn't need to try this for themselves to see this is a bad choice, and it's a worrying precedent for the next killers on the Rework list.
BHVR, I voted for you for Labor of Love this past year. And I do know these changes are probably coming from a sense of wanting to balance every side and make the game more fun, and that's a great intention, and thank you for that... but this adjustment is misguided.
I beg you, PLEASE, swallow the pride of having done these changes for the Developer Update, and at least revert Sadako to her PTB state. And PLEASE consider doing this for future post-PTB Patch Notes.
Again, especially as a console player with no way to give direct feedback other than to see streams and guess the positives and negatives by what they say, It's very scary to see your final word on post-PTB notes, without having any way to know when those will be addressed in the future, regardless of newer feedback like this thread.
It'd do less harm to just retract and say oopsie, than to be stubborn and try to release this. I beg you.
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Exactly.
Tunneling is something inherent to DBD, not to condemned.
Even thinking about the scenario, for a survivor to die to condemned stacks by tunneling it would take a survivor:
- Ignoring the active TV and gaining condemned until Sadako shows up
- Running into more TVs for her to teleport to, if she hadn't already spammed them for #1
- Failing to get to a safe spot after unhook with basekit BT
- Never interacting with tapes to counter the condemned in the first place
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Bhvr sealed the well on Sadako. 😩😡
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I’m hoping in the next week or two they will revert some changes, ideally, I’d love to see some things reverted before it goes live, but we shall see.
My heart is just in a sad place right now I’ve waited a while for these changes, for me personally, respectfully, I never wanted the current Sadako.
I wanted old Sadako with some buffs to condemn.
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Behavior talks about hearing the cries of the anguishing sadako mains.
They will certainly hear it today!
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they said "if the movies dont put an end to her, we will"
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and odds are theyll ignore it too.
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As i said before, im seriously thinking about a petition at this point.
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Ironic that they actually said that.
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Yes 😤😭
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I also hoped we return to her old version completely with some Buffs. Then they decided to do a good middle ground and now we got another useless killer. They should either give us her first version back or the PTB version, but nothing useless!!!
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Heck if they had the ability to throw on a cooldown for condemned, current Sadako would be less oppressive while correctly adjusted for mapwide without gutting her movement.
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They absolutely have to revert these unnecessary nerfs. A killer should not be punished for survivors failing to do proper counterplay when it is so easy and risk free.
Simply reverting the nerfs is not going far enough though. They need to address the 1 second tape insert times and the TV auras. Both of these make the counterplay way too forgiving for survivors and doesn't give Sadako the means to punish survivor mistakes.
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Yes they could have just changed the live version like that and I would be more happy than with these stupid changes.
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I feel you so hard. I fought so much and thought i actually took part in making a change happen. This hurts so much.
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I would be perfectly fine with a cooldown for condemn to make it less oppressive. BUT if they do that, they need to make it so the condemn counterplay doesn't negatively affect her mobility so much. She already has TV cooldown times and survivors being able to shutdown TVs risk free to avoid condemn and mobility is too much.
They should make it so TVs turned off by survivors are off for a shorter period of time than they are now. The counterplay is so easy atm and survivors will just constantly turn TVs off as a result for basically no risk. Onryo needs this duration change to allow her to have some counterplay to the strong counterplay.
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Exactly what they could have done with live Sadako. Add that condemned cooldown and remove the teleport cooldown.
Honestly at this point I think tapes just need to be removed. Clearly survivors don't want to touch them anyway. This whole situation boggles my mind.
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Some good news:
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Please just revert the nerfs, that’s all I ask for
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I don’t get why we’re going to have to wait for a follow up update. Surely they can just push the PTB version to live instead?
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Was this on Twitter?
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They did this with batteries included, it took 3 weeks to reverted the nerf, which will happen to sadako which will upset me and other sadako mains that it even happened in the first place
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Issue I see is, these are 'follow up adjustments' to things that truly aren't an issue in the first place if survivors just grab tapes? You know, her easy to accomplish counterplay with no current downside?
At this rate I just very well might main Nurse instead.
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I didn’t understand at all why that revert took so long. Why does it take almost a month to revert a perk to a version that is already coded and functional (as we saw on the PTB)?
Same with Onryō. Surely if they’ve heard our feedback, they can just launch PTB version instead. It’s 5 days until launch. That feels like enough time to sort it out to me 🤷♂️
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Who knows, all I know is that I lost my excitement for this update, especially since I’m a console player who didn’t get a chance to try this version of sadako and have to wait another 2 weeks for her nerfs to be changed
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I would’ve thought 5 days before PTB would have been enough too. 🤷🏼♂️
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They won‘t just revert it, otherwise he would have written that. They will do changes for her like with trickster, aka changes nobody wants.
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For console they have to certify the updates with them. 5 days is likely too short of a time to make the changes, it also costs them money afaik for each update they push.
I am okay with them reverting the nerfs after the release, however they also must address the other issues that we brought up in the PTB feedback. TV auras need to be looked at, 1s tape inserts need to be looked at, and some of her add-ons need to be looked at.
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Me too, I‘ve waited since they announced the rework „ to bring her closer to the original“. Very disappointing, what they did!
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it is not non-sense. with 7 televisions, you incentives to teleport every single chance you get regardless of whether you hit the survivor with condemn or not. there is simply no drawback to not doing that. By teleportation to all 7 TV's, you emulate old condemn effect of applying 0.75 condemn stack to the entire map. Now it is just 1 condemn stack on the entire map. if you hit, you build condemn. If you don't hit, just teleport to another location. There is no bad teleport. The 10 second cooldown is there to discourage mindless teleportation.
In order for survivor to counter massive teleportation spam, survivor are incentives to always grab a tape or deposit tape to turn off every single television on the map near a gen that is being worked on. TV's spawn next to generators so you can grab a tape, work on a gen then go to another gen and turn off television. you can do gen objective and tv objective in such a way that there is no game-delay. only positive benefits in deleting her entire passive and her teleportation capacities. there is no decision making or skill input from survivor end with new tapes. you see a turned on TV near a generator, you turn it off. You have a tape? Go to your television and turn it off. It is just free counter to her ability with no downsides. it might be worse Singularity EMP'S.
I dislike entire Onryo rework because there is no substance gameplay left on either side. The killer has no skill expression in applying condemn/manipulating condemn to be more effective and survivor has no skill expression in deleting the ability. The killer is spoon fed condemn stacks for existing and survivor is spoon fed the counter-play. I was heartbroken by her rework and decided to not give any further feedback beyond what I am writing here. All I can hope now for her rework to be a downright failure where she get reverted.
Developer post explains their reasoning for lock-on stack change.
With your current Condemned progress becoming permanent when you were hooked, Survivors who were hooked with several stacks became a clear target for The Onryō; it would only take a few more stacks of Condemned to secure a quick and early kill. This indirectly encouraged the Killer to seek out and chase the same Survivor after they were unhooked (or “tunnelling” for short).
To tone this down, hooking a Survivor will now lock in a maximum of 2 stacks of Condemned. Any additional Condemned will remain but can be removed by the Survivor as normal. This can happen again when the Survivor is hooked for a second time for a maximum of 4 locked-in stacks.
This will give Survivors an opportunity to remove some of their Condemned after they are unhooked while keeping Condemned kills as a far more prominent threat later in the match.
The short answer is that they want condemn to be a late-game threat when it doesn't matter. It is like they forget that Pyramid Head exists... who also has a name called Executioner who gets mori's for just applying torment debuff on death hook. Sadako now has identity crisis where a Pyramid head does what she does but better.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on0 -
It wasn‘t even easy to fully condemned someone, but now it’s just simply impossible!
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You completely overlook the fact that you can grab a tape by the time Sadako teleports a second time, in most cases. The TV is even highlighted for you. That TV is also off for 70 seconds.
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I have not played Sadako since her first rework. I was extremely happy with the PTB and said as much here; so excited, in fact, that I decided to wait until this update released so that I’d be fresh and ready to absolutely dig into this game with my favorite killer.
I guess I’ll be looking forward to the midchapter.
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i am not disagreeing with tape argument. I am saying that if you entirely ignore televisions, you get condemn stacks for almost doing nothing other then pressing TV teleport button. When survivor counters you, you have no ability. Condemn mechanic is nothing more then noob-stomping ability now. Average survivor to master-level survivor will never get Condemned. The mechanic only function vs new players that are like 0-500 hours that entirely disregard tapes and televisions as a concept.
sign of relief. At the same time, I do not see them being able to improve this killer in few changes. Onryo is garbage now.
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That's completely on the survivors at that point though. That's like saying 'This boss has a mechanic that kills me if I don't stand on this pillar. But I don't want to stand on this pillar, even if it takes 2 seconds to do it. Therefore, I shouldn't stand on this pillar' then dying and wondering why you died.
If 4 survivors are split, Sadako is likely to see one of them and give chase. It still gives everyone time to grab tapes regardless if she chooses to take that chase or not anyway. If all 4 survivors are on the same gen, it only takes one of them to grab that tape to save the rest from gaining condemned. I think a strong counterplay balances a strong power this way.
I started playing this game when Sadako came out. It took me less than half an hour to realize what tapes and teleportation does.
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I really liked; that cursed tapes gave passive condemned, that made them something bad and not just sth positive. In the last rework that negative and positive effect in my opinion was pushed too far. Either you condemned people by hitting them and distroying the tapes or you got no TVs available and no slowdown.
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While I'm okay with current Sadako's tapes having the nullifying properties for mapwide condemned and receiving stacks on hit, even I'll agree it could be better adjusted. Both current and old Sadako had a drawback to holding tapes, and even with old Sadako at least it was nice to have that while stacking condemned wasn't as reliable without (ironically) tunneling someone into TVs.
These changes though, if a survivor ever reaches max condemned it's honestly just their own fault at that point. Sadako will be lucky to see condemned stacks go beyond 3 or 4 against teams who touch tapes without using Ring Drawing if these changes go through, effectively killing her passive slowdown in the long run. If tapes had the passive condemned, I'd still feel wary about it but at least it would be something to better balance the condemned cooldown.
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It's also wild that she gets giga nerfed but Blight only gets a smack on the wrist at worst despite being the 2nd strongest killer for years now.
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I think a strong counterplay balances a strong power this way.
So you support an item that deletes most your ability entirely? That is like saying Singularity Emps and Turrets are good design. Survivors making right play every single time should not render your ability completely ineffective. The tapes are suppose to be a tool to mitigate effectiveness of curse. The current version upcoming version of sadako deletes curse entirely. There is nothing the killer can do to gain advantages from tapes. The tapes only hurt sadako and contribute nothing towards her success in the base-kit. Only ring drawing does anything towards the tapes, it gives messily 1 stack for hooking someone. Even coming from lore perspective, this version of Onryo makes no sense. your holding a cursed object and cursed object is like help you?
The current tapes are no better then singlurarity EMP's. free counter with no downside.
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Singularity EMPs and Turrets are a completely different debate. Singularity and Xenomorph cannot mori you regardless of hook state.
What makes Sadako different is her threat is tied to the condemned. And why are we suddenly shifting to tape effectiveness when the topic was the controversial changes made in the update? The tapes weren't touched at all and Sadako was effectively nerfed, heck I'd even argue with the hook condemned cap and condemned having a cooldown, tapes were massively buffed since you don't need to grab them as often.
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I was looking forward for the next update since I enjoyed the original Sadako way more than the current even if it's easier to condemn now. The PTB I didn't have time to play as - but seemed fun to play. But looking at the DEV Update, it looks like they literally ruined her, I do not want to play as this Sadako, all I ever wanted was a chasing power.
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Me too!
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