Is tunneling killing the game?

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Frizouw
Frizouw Member Posts: 96
edited February 9 in General Discussions

Hi,

I want to share my thoughts, experiences, what I think could be done about tunneling and I would like to know your opinion about that.

Lately, I played during the community tournament, which we couldn't tunnel, camp and only slug once per match, it was so much more fun, balanced than what we have right now, it was rewarding good plays for both side. Everyone actually needed to use a minimum of their brain cells, like using the only slug for the right moment, protect the right gens, make good skill shots, GOOD PLAYS!

If the killers were not respecting these rules, they were loosing a huge amount of points (negative points).


Today I came back to play with some friends and it was NOT fun, we had a Sadako that was purposely tunneling. I am not talking about like "tunneling because the survivor is asking for it" or "tunneling because it was the end game", she was waiting for the survivor to be unhook, she was ignoring us and was chasing the same surviver again until he died.

It happens more than once during the same night, different matches, different killers but same behavior. We could notice that at the end the killer won as much points as us and I felt like...there was no reason to NOT play like that.


I really do think they should work on something to make the game more like a chess and mind game and not a tunneling playground. Don't get me wrong, I know there is survivors who are bullies too, at least there is perks to counter Flashlight/Stun plays, nothing except decisive strike for survivors, that does not really change much because the tunneler just need to continue tunneling after the strike.


I don't know if there is any devs who are reading the forum for real or if what we are writing here is taken in consideration but: If your goto is "fun", I think you are loosing the track of what is "fun" by doing nothing about people who just want to be mean to others because they can and there is no penalty for doing it. Like they could continue to play like that, IF IT'S THEIR KIND OF FUN, but don't encourage that by giving as much points for just tunneling and makes the whole game miserable.

Even if people say: No one is playing for BP. I guarantee you, if the killer have 0 or close to nothing points because he played just to make everyone uninstall the game, at some point he will run out of add-ons, run out of offering, find the games boring and uninstall it or change his mindset.


I love this game, I want it to be more fun :( Please BHVR, do something <3

Thank you for reading me.

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EDIT#1:

Note, this post is not about:

  • Winning or loosing
  • Changing game mechanic

It's about incentify not tunneling by adjusting points in regards of the amount of gens left and the duration between 1st and 2nd hook of a survivor.

It's either:

  • Removing points from tunneling at 5 gens inside x amount of seconds
  • Giving more points to not tunnel
  • Mix the two previous solutions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT #2:

After reading everyone here and have some reflexion, I think we just need a "tournament-like" mode, with the same rules as a tournament, so everyone will be happy, I could try a more "define" mode and other people could keep playing as free as they want with the regular mode:

SURVIVORS

Rules:

  • No duplicate perks
  • No items (finders keepers allowed)
  • No offerings
  • No duplicate survivors

----

KILLER

Rules:

  • Green or lower add-ons are allowed
  • Tunneling is not allowed (disable during endgame) : which you couldn't down a survivor after he got unhook without hooking a different one before.
  • Can only slug 1 survivor max (possibly disable during endgame): after u kept a survivor on the ground for more than 15 seconds, the next one you don't pickup in the 6 seconds after your weapon cooldown animation stop, can not be picked up and can recover real fast with an endurance and running speed of 10%.
  • Only allowed a cypress mori.

---

SEASONS

Every season the devs could pick:

  • 7 maps and 28 possible killers that can be played during that season till next 13th where it shuffles again.
  • For each game that players start, there will be 4 random killers among the 28 possibles, OR it could simply be 4 random killers among all the killers and throw the 28 idea in the garbage.
  • The player who is playing killer would have to pick one among the 4 random, he could have the option to simply pick "random" and let the game pick the killer for him if he wants more challenge.
  • The lobby waiting times would be longer than usual, I don't know how much times should be appropriate so the players can negotiate/communicate perks or build for each of them if needed, but if everyone is ready, the game just go as usual.
  • If the survivor does not care about his build or want some challenge, he can simply pick the perk "randomizer" that will simply random his 4 perks with what is left available.


IF THAT KIND OF MODE would exist, I'd be very happy, and I'd probably just play this one and the others that want to play more freely can still play as they want.

Post edited by Frizouw on
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Comments

  • Quizzy
    Quizzy Member Posts: 862
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    It's better to just honestly let it go and just "take it." Because devs will not do anything to change tunneling in this game, even if it ruins the experience of that one person getting tunneled and sacrificed at 5 gens. All they can do is give us perks and basekit BT to help, that's it.

    Personally, I do bring antitunnel perks, but even then it's sad that I have to rely on them for myself. Because it doesn't stop the killer to tunnel someone else and ruin their experience.

    So what I do is, if someone is tunneling me without antitunnel perks, I just give up. Because I can choose to not play with someone that ruins the experience of other people. We can't report them, and they can't report us for it. Or if someone else is tunneled out at 5 gens. They playing boring, I respond by playing boring and hide which prolongs the match even further. But overall, they won't do anything. It's better to just handle it on your own terms that doesn't require harassment, threats etc in the endgame. Move on and hope for a better match.

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,437
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    Realistically the answer to dbd's current problems is to nullify tunneling entirely some how and make mmr work correctly or at least add a check mark to wait longer for an evenly matched game.

    Then you balance the bad killers around that although that in itself is hard because majority of the bad killers lack room to get buffed without making them awful to play against.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,592
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    You sometimes want to camp to get the first hit for free in a chase. Spreading pressure you know? Tunneling off hook = not spreading pressure.

    If I want to find someone, I know that at least 2 people are at the hook.

  • Unknown2765
    Unknown2765 Member Posts: 1,962
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    Thats true, but its really bad at the moment. I dont think i have seen it like this for the 2-3 years i have been playing.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669
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    Tunneling off hook creates immense pressure on the survivor, making them prone to silly mistakes that gets them downed faster, especially due to the fact they are missing a health state. A 3v1 creates more pressure than not tunneling and that's why tunneling is so common, especially because it requires little skill. Why would they do it if it didn't create pressure? You tunnel the weak link out and it's ggs.

  • Shirtless_Myers
    Shirtless_Myers Member Posts: 361
    edited February 1
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    That situation is rarely the case, and you're trying to paint them as the problem requiring changes is such a joke. Camping is way too easy with little to no downside to the point it happens in nearly every game I've played since the patch dropped while on Survivor.

  • Frizouw
    Frizouw Member Posts: 96
    edited February 1
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    Listen guys, I don't think the solution is complicated, simply: DO NOT make that behavior REWARDING.

    If the killer hook a survivor, twice in a row inside x minutes (I don't know the amount, I'd the say 90 seconds, the time of an entire gen, we can argue all day on the amount of times) give him negative points or none depending the amount of gens left, it needs to be punishing but still available. So people who ONLY do that, will suffer from it in regards of BP, of buying offering, buying add-ons, buying perks.

    OR

    You can give MORE points to unhook a different survivor inside x minutes

  • Frizouw
    Frizouw Member Posts: 96
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    I don't agree with that.

    Because it will continue and become worst. Peope will leave the game, Q will be longer than ever to simply play a ######### game :/

    it's like saying let yourself abuse, it will be end faster. no.

  • Crowman
    Crowman Member Posts: 9,119
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    People also keep saying that "tunneling is worse than ever" every year. Whether or not it is actually worse, it's never caused the game to die.

  • radiantHero23
    radiantHero23 Member Posts: 3,592
    edited February 1
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    I don't do it. If I camp, I go for the unhooker. It's mostly the instances where I get bodyblocked by the u hooked survivor, that I decide to tunnel.

    Defencive measures should not be used offencively.

  • Frizouw
    Frizouw Member Posts: 96
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    I am not sure I understand your question.

    Here I am more talking about tunneling at 5 gens.

    If survivors are bullying you by using flashlights, at some point the game does not progress and they will loose.

  • Moonras2
    Moonras2 Member Posts: 269
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    This, I hate tunneling or being tunneled but it's hard to reward or punish it. You can't punish a killer for a survivor being unhooked and running towards the killer to take a hit for someone else. Which makes it hard to punish at all because there's always going to be a loophole.

  • Frizouw
    Frizouw Member Posts: 96
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    I am not sure I understand, you are saying that I survivor could intentionnally make the killer loose points by getting down and hook?

  • Frizouw
    Frizouw Member Posts: 96
    edited February 1
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    That's not true. Look at the statistic, it's a slow death. It does not mean there is not radically 0 that it's not happening. I can tell by my surrounding, my friends, that they are not playing as much or either not playing anymore because of TUNNELING at 5 gens.

    https://activeplayer.io/dead-by-daylight/

  • LordGlint
    LordGlint Member Posts: 8,045
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    The original post brought up that killers were not allowed to slug, otherwise they'd get negative points. As long as 1 survivor was in the general area of any chase, they could just get the easiest flashlight saves while knowing the killer would get dinged for points if they did anything besides instantly pick up. I KNOW you wanna talk about tunneling, but for some reason you decided to include these rules that just seem very exploitable. I'm just imagining a 4k at 5 gens resulting in the killer losing because they had -5 points for breaking the rules.

  • Bafugaboo
    Bafugaboo Member Posts: 406
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    I have been purposefully not tunneling and seen immense boosts to both bp and progression in tiers. That being said I think a change that could help is depreciating returns on same survivor hooks. This way if they tunnel they would not gain as much in bp or tier progression. It is not a perfect answer, but at least a suggestion.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,001
    edited February 1
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    I think a couple of things should happen.

    Firstly, since they increased to BP caps, reaching 10k in the Sacrifice category has been unreasonably tricky. They could fix this by reintroducing a similar mechanism to old BBQ. Each time a survivor is hooked for the first time, the killer scores a bonus 500 BP.

    That's not massive, but if you are aiming for max BP, you're better off ensuring everyone is hooked at least once before endgame.

    Secondly, we have some niche perks that lose their effect once a survivor is sacrificed. I believe the majority of meta slowdown perks should have this effect. Once a survivor has been sacrificed, slowdown is not strictly as necessary. You've either reduced the survivors to 3 with multiple gens left to repair, which is it's own slowdown, or you're near endgame and the slowdown has depreciating returns. But the knowledge that killing a survivor will essentially remove one of your perks can be a powerful incentive, and give the remaining survivors an actual chance. With the remaining survivors more likely to escape, tunneling becomes less rewarding.

    This would be fitting for perks like Pain Res, DMS, or Grim Embrace which proc on hooks anyway.

    Ruin had this, but wasn't meta, and Thanatophobia has this indirectly by having it's greatest value tied to having four survivors in game.

    Pentimento could also do this, or have a backup effect once survivors get eliminated. Perhaps each eliminated survivor knocks the effects down one by one, so one survivor sacrificed makes one Penti totem inert but two still slow healing, and so on.

  • UnknownKiller
    UnknownKiller Member Posts: 3,024
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    More likely saving it.If they fix tunneling ohh hell tgey will need to use the nerf hammer on survs if they dont wanna lose 70% killer base

  • Bafugaboo
    Bafugaboo Member Posts: 406
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    This brings more positive thoughts for change. If perks were made with different stages based on remaining survivors, or even hitting/hooking different survivors(repeat hooks could take from the gain). This could be great incentives. The bp gain or loss you reference is right on track towards what I was thinking as well.

  • LordGlint
    LordGlint Member Posts: 8,045
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    It's an asymmetrical pvp game, so me winning doesn't necessarily mean my opponent lost. If I manage to open the exit gates and escape, I won... If the killer got my 3 teammates, he won too. The game is going to adjust both of our MMRs to reflect that.

  • Yatol
    Yatol Member Posts: 1,935
    edited February 3
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    "killing the game" wouldn't be the right term since tunneling has been present for a long time, what is killing the game is the current meta turning everyone bitter and jaded where nobody wants to try anymore.

    Post edited by Yatol on
  • Frizouw
    Frizouw Member Posts: 96
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    I brought up that rule, because that rule was part of the reason it was making the tournament more fun than the actual game, even for killers, because they had to think twice before slugging, they were keeping that option at the end or for the right opportunity to make that kind of pressure a really significant move, instead of doing it at 5 gens and just gg. They were allowed to slug, but just once.

    You could look around, make sure to position yourself to not get flashlight before picking up. Just not letting the survivor there and start another chase more than once, it was also fine to hit a survivor in between if one was around waiting for the save.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669
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    Oh yeah that's perfectly fine, my bad. Seeing the killer go for the unhooker provides the biggest sigh of relief lmao.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,669
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    It could be mitigated by restricting tunneling power in the current landscape. Many people DC because they get tunnelled. That's the overall observation many people would provide you with because it's what happens most often. I haven't had a teammate throw a game like you described in a while, they might be bad at looping, but they don't purposefully throw the game. Removing tunneling wouldn't stop DC's, but there would be a significant decrease and I would literally bet on it. You can't change people's attitudes, but you can steer them away from doing stuff like that without punishing people by not allowing them to DC or die on hook. I don't want to be a killer's punching bag.

  • Frizouw
    Frizouw Member Posts: 96
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    At the end I think the simpliest solutions are:

    1) Making tunneling less rewarding

    2) Making not tunneling more rewarding

    3) Mix of option 1 and 2

    by adjusting points in regards of:

    • The amount of gens left;
    • The time duration between 1st and 2nd hook of the survivor.

    So you still can play like that, but there is something trying to encourage you to not do that. So it keeps the "you play like you want" but there is something telling you, it's not the optimum way.

    I personnaly would prefer making tunneling less rewarding: not making points, making less points, loosing points is a greater incentive in my opinion than giving more points to not tunnel, because you still reward the frustrating behavior just less. The solution should not be black or white neither, it should depends on the amount of gens left and the amount of times the player have been hook.

    For example, keep in mind, I didn't think deeply about the amount of times, points, but I want you to understand the big picture of my idea:

    • 5 gens, tunnel twice during 60 seconds after the unhook: negative points.
    • 5 gens, tunnel twice during 90 seconds after the unhook: no points.
    • 5 gens, two different hook during 90 seconds: hook points + 1000 BP

    If they prefer the 2nd options, I will still be happy because something would have been done to motivate an alternative playstyle.


    Don't get me wrong, it's not about winning or loosing here, it's about fun. Being tunnel at 5 gens, is not fun, it's making people quit the game cause there is NO REASON to NOT do that.

  • Gastongard
    Gastongard Member Posts: 87
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    Also, another problem I see with the tunneling gameplay style is that it makes you think you are good at the game, then you get one match where you think you choosed the "weak link" and in reality its the best survivor and you get stomped, and then you come here and make a post about how unfair killer gameplay is, you ask for survivor nerfs, and bla bla. Tunnelling doesnt make you better at the game, its just an illusion, it just make more miserable other people games. Picking always the easiest way to get an small dose of dopamine just because you killed a 4 survis solo q team, wont make you a better player.

    And Im only refering to killer that tunnels at 5 gens, like robots, npcs, of course strategic tunelling is a valid strategy. But tunelling at 5 gens is not strategic, its just bully, and sorry but bullies just deserve the worst.

  • Frizouw
    Frizouw Member Posts: 96
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    Yeah it's about the reward for good plays. It's not there, it's missing incentives to make the game fun.

    You reminds me of a challenge that was there during the christmas event, it was like "kill the obsession" something like that and I was like c'mon, this encourage tunneling the obsession to get your christmas reward. XD

    I hope a dev will read that post so much and maybe even participate in the conversation.

  • Quizzy
    Quizzy Member Posts: 862
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    Well for one, it's just a video game. So I will never let my mental health be in jeopardy because someone plays in a poor sport way. And we all tried to explain how tunneling is causing people to not enjoy the game to the devs as a whole. But they won't apply any new mechanics to punish them for it, so we have no choice but to just adapt to it or just gg go next.