Is tunneling killing the game?
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The rewards system is not rewarding enough for good plays.
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"an incentive would only work if the problem is also nerfed heavily"
which is exactly what needs to happen, make insanely good incentive for not tunneling and punish those who do
just because its probably not going to happen because the devs dont understand their game doesn't mean it wouldn't fix the problem
literally just give some decent at least gen regression/blockage/slowdown when mixing hooks and you have your incentive which would work well
but, if you dont agree with me, that's fine, I dont really feel like arguing with another internet stranger right now
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Fun is very very subjective and the killer can find tunneling fun, the tunneled survivor might appreciate the chases, the rest of the team might be thankful for the time they can spend on gens unbothered. Tunneling is a strategy and me personally (I can only speak for myself) I NEVER do it with the intention to ruin a survivor’s fun but only to win. Yes I tunnel at 5 gens, no I don’t think morality should be brought into a video game specially an asymmetrical horror game such as this. Realistically a serial killer under the same conditions would tunnel if his or her end goal is to capture all 4 humans. You have a wonderful day
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Thank you for having common sense
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While I'm personally fine with tunneling because chases are fun, I believe tunneling should receive a nerf if we're going to keep an MMR system in the game, why reward bad players on either side? The game could more accurately matchmake if tunneling were nerfed and then people would stop crying they're outmatched at high ranks, not everyone is the best killer in the world so why offer a cheap strategy to catapult bad players to higher ranks who in turn come here crying because they can't pull it off with 100 percent accuracy like they could before? "Gens go too fast!" Yea when you focus the same survivor for more than a few minutes instead of prioritizing gens that tends to happen
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Simple solution to tunneling:
Make not tunneling more rewarding than tunneling.
Right now, there is Grim Embrace and DMS, even with nerfed stbfl Killers are going out of their way to hook 4 individual survivors and purposefully ignore the obsession.
Yet countless thread about how unbalanced and unfair those perks are.
So you dont tunnel and survivors dont like it, you tunnel they dont like it either...
You can nerf and punish tunneling all you want, there is simply not a single strategy in the game that is more efficient than getting one person out asap and robbing the survs of 25% efficiency across the board.
People will always play versus games competitively. Even goofy and silly games like fall guys get completely min/maxed.
Its human nature that ppl want to win.
Encourage not tunneling. Basekit grim embrace, 10% repair debuff if 4 survs are 1 hooked, whatever.
Nerfing tunneling or implementing basekit bandaid "anti tunneling" buffs for survivors wont change anything.
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Imagine thinking killers need more buffs across the board...
I'm already winning 8/10 games; at that point, you might as well spawn them on hooks for me, too.
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Nerfing tunneling while not offering survivors anything additional will absolutely change it (as long as BHVR doesn't do the stuff theyre known for and give survivors something that breaks the game.) if you punish players for those strategies then the players who are using actual skill to win stand out more, kind of like in today's dbd if you can hold a long chase you're a good survivor because tiles have been nerfed and pallets removed over the years so the better players stand out more than they used to and the same needs to happen for the killer role so matchmaking works just a little more accurate than it does now (I'm aware there's no way to have perfect matchmaking), people are always complaining about survivors but at this point in the game it's a skill issue more than a balance issue , those people complaining don't belong in the lobbies they're getting thrown in and tunneling is the big elephant in the room everyone is trying to ignore so they feel better about themselves and can say they're "good at the game".
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I don't disagree with BHVR's stance of removing BP bonuses from perks. But the WGLF and BBQ bonuses should have always just been made base kit and not tied to the perk(s) since that nerf.
I also think this is one of the few 'base kit' mechanics they really should add and doing so really shouldn't be controversial in any way.
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But it is useful to have those bonuses tied to perks.
A killer using BBQ = One less gen regression / blocking perk.
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Maybe, but it's been BHVR's stance to systematically remove those BP bonuses tied to perks.
Since I can't change their minds on that, I'd rather have the bonus base kit than literally not at all. Especially for BBQ.
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No, its the same as its always been. People have been saying your exact words for years.
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Since I can't change their minds on that
All we can do is offer feedback, but I'd say it is worth the shot. It is never too late to revert things.
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This actually should really be one of the main discussions to look at because they can still face camp you, then you can jump off the hook right infront of them because they just sat there and camped you the whole time for the yellow bar to go up entirely, then they proceed to not target anyone else just to continue to tunnel and kill you. Idk for me you can actually respect the killer when they choose to go after someone else, even when they see you. Alot of people are so toxic with it too because nothing has been done about it yet. It's honestly sad to see them just stand there the whole time, like they don't know how to multitask and get a sense of accomplishment from it. Couldn't be me.
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I don't have access to the statistics of the game, but I can say all my friends (and I've a lot of them) have quit and not come back due to tunneling and slugging.
They felt frustrated and aggravated, along with the fact that their mental health isn't worth the game. The ones that tried to stay said they stayed only to play with me. Eventually they just stopped.
Take that as you will :)
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Every action has a reaction. If survivors want a fun experience, they should match that energy and not be insufferably boring in 90% of games.
Post edited by EQWashu on5 -
What you're suggesting, punishing a killer for tunneling, is ridiculous. You have to make it less lucrative to do so. So, perhaps, for example, instead of whining about a new perk combo that rewards NOT tunneling, just learn counterplay and accept that it's okay for a combo to be strong. That type of thing.
To punish a killer for tunneling would be like punishing survivors for doing too many gens at once.
You guys need way too much handholding. Get good.
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Isn't that called Deadlock lol
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Us vs Them isn't a good look anymore; it's not 2017 and you're not a poor Killer main victim.
Both sides are horrible to each other at times. This creates a vicious cycle where one side takes out their frustrations on a completely uninvolved player(s), which then causes those players to do the same.
Instead of blaming only Survivors, it would be more wise to call out all toxic behavior.
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This thread is literally Us. vs. Them.
The fact is - it's generally accepted by the community all around for survivors to use what they want, play how they want, do all the stuff they can to complete their objective. That energy does not exist for killers. This thread is proof. Sadako being basically rolled back is proof. There are many instances of proof of this. There is no version of this where you're even remotely capable of proving otherwise. Period.
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Survivors: Why do I have to run a perk to counter this killer thing (there's many examples)?
Also survivors: Isn't there a perk to counter survivors doing more than one gen at once?
Deadlock doesn't do anything but block the gen for a moment. It does nothing other than that.
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In a game decided by seconds, Deadlock certainly matters.
Likewise, you said, "To punish a killer for tunneling would be like punishing survivors for doing too many gens at once," which I found curious since that already exists in Deadlock and it doesn't even punish multiple gen pops or slamming the objective. It actually punishes you for doing it at all, which is curiously similar to another perk from the past.
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I think you've become too biased and I urge you to take a step back. Your vision is clouded by hatred for the other side and it shows.
There is no Survivor conspiracy against you or Killers. Killers have been buffed across the board since I started playing so many years ago. There is no such energy, you constantly hear complaints about perks, strategies, button presses etc etc.
Sadako being rolled back happened despite feedback that she was GOOD. All the feedback here and on Reddit was positive. Every content creator had positive feedback. The Devs do what they want.
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Tunneling isn't the root cause, it's a visible symptom of a few different issues working in tandem.
The sbmm and mmr systems are terrible. They catapult killers with weaker or non existent skills into high mmr swf and cheaters because it starts them out on a bunch of low mmr solo q and the killer stomps them.
In high mmr, where survivors actually know what they're doing, the killers, who shouldn't be there, get stomped right back into low mmr where the cycle repeats
Eventually the killer figures out a 3v1 is easier to manage than a 4v1 and starts tunnelling out in high mmr, with zero feedback for when they go back to low mmr
Bhvr has only made this worse by nerfing every play style for both teams outside of gen rush for survivors and tunneling for killers. Which is a testament to how much they nerf because tunnelling is mechanically the most difficult it's ever been (anti face camp and bt basekit).
Tldr: bhvr needs to stop nerfing everything and start rolling out buffs for both sides
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That "tunneling at 5 gens" always makes me wonder when, according to you, someone is allowed to "tunnel". You are probably going to say 1 generator or 2 generators left. But by that time you already lost as killer. You will be chasing someone, 4 people alive, one gen gets stacked, other solo. You're already cooked
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Dont forget that "at 5 gens left" could mean anything inbetween 0 and 396 charges repaired.
It's like saying dont start repairing at 0 hooks.
"Dont tunnel at 5gens left" is valid but "dont repair/genrush at 0hooks" is ridiculous, right? Btw thats totally one of the survivor biases this community has.
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I feel like there are topics in which the community definitely holds survivors to a less strict standard.
For a small example. Do you expect survivors to consider their opponent's fun or change their gameplay to do so?
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A non-tunneling game is fun for survivors.
Tunneling at 5 gens, isn’t even a game for survivors.
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I see fairly constant threads about gen rushing, so yes, that does seem to be a constant standard.
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Have you read the threads? The responses are always "what else are we supposed to do?"
15-20 replies excusing it every time
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And yet the game is still here going strong.
"Tunneling" didn't kill the game before and won't kill it now.
Maybe its the smaller maps but I remember a time when I could walk more than 2 steps away from a hook before some survivor rushed in to make a save.
Maybe built in BT just makes people think that unsafe unhooks are the norm?
Do players just double down on the ol "survivor rule book" and expect a killer to only chase the rescuers even when practical logic says it's the worse of 2 choices. I don't know but I feel like pre MMR days players just more commonly made better decisions than they do now.
I don't find as survivor that I get "tunneled" or "camped" that often but I also try to make smart choices that don't give the killer the opportunity to do so.
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And I see the same responses in threads about tunneling.
I'm sorry but you can't spin this particular point your way.
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dude as a killer main i am very sorry about that and i hope to have a game against you so i can show you we are not all like that
also good ideas for the changes but i got another one add a competitive gamemode that gives more bp and a casual one that gives less
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Its like... don't finish the gen, let me hook everybody 1-2 times before you can continue, otherwise you are a bully. Stop tunneling them gens when there is zero hooks! \o\
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That's actually a good point about the rise of proxy camping.
Maps being smaller increased 3-gen placements. It also made everything more condensed, allowing Killers to proxy better which in turn, led to survivors feeling like they needed to unhook quickly.
Used to be you couldn't hold gens and a hook, because maps were too big for that. Now you can do both.
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I played 3 games as survivor yesterday, i didnt touch a single gen i 2 of them, because i got tunnled the whole game.
I know, im a former killer main, thats not what im talking about, im talking about the killer finds you at 5 gens, and every time you get unhooked (not in their face) they leave their current chase (if they are in one) to return to you.
I even tried when i was on death hook, and no one else were hooked to hide, and as soon as the killer saw me they returned to me, the other team memebers even tried to offer them self as a new target but she (plague) would have none of it.
This was the reason i only played 3 games, where i normally would have played more (and i know im not the only one)... so no matter what you say, this is defo. hurting the player base.
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Just make the killer a bot
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Well, yes but no. About half the responses on tunneling threads are killers saying they don't need to.
But also, both the gen rushers and the tunnelers are correct. All other playstyles have been nerfed into the ground
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In that case you are the chase guy and your goal is to out play the killer and sink as much time as possible.
There are some great examples of chase builds that can make you hard to track and heal up quickly meaning if played well you can escape from chase with some regularity.
I’ve always been of the mindset that if I have several games where the same thing happens I build to avoid that thing for a few games and it typically works.
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Why the next match? You could tunnel right then, because you just got your first hook. Its not that you choose to not tunnel that match, you just failed. Next match might just be the same. Sure, if you then get your first hook at no gens done and you tunnel, there is no reason you wouldnt have done it in the other match if you had got that first hook earlier.
I for one think of taking off a month from playing survivor. Maybe i keep playing as killer. If enough players think like me, it might send a message.
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I wouldn’t call it proxy camping per se when survivors don’t even give you the chance to leave the hook.
You’d think it’d go the other way with smaller maps, you don’t need to rush the hook as you don’t have to run that far to save.
Whatever it is though I feel like the impatience level is much higher than it used to be and that leads to bad decisions on both sides.
I can’t really blame an opponent for leveraging my bad decision to their advantage. Even if it means I or a team mate are eliminated early, I mean that’s the killer goal after all.
I’m not saying all “tunneling” etc is the fault of survivors but I can identify the opportunity to apply it as a tactic effectively and the situation to do so arises far more frequently lately than my previous game experience.
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I think it's more that Survivors have learned to not allow the Killer time to position themselves properly.
Better to rush in than to allow the Killer to camp multiple objectives. If they don't give you time to identify that, then it's better for them.
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I play in according to what the survivors are like at the time I play. If I get multiple squads that just hold main buildings with map offerings then I will play accordingly.
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It's generally accepted because they aren't the same thing. And to think they are completely ignores many game mechanics. Unless survivors have put you on a hook as killer and you sat there for 30 seconds.
I don't care if survivors try to gen slam me. I'm playing against those survivors because I'm good at killer and generally play higher tier killers that can handle it. They aren't denying me the ability to play the game. I'm not sitting here at 5k hrs and devotion 26 wondering how I could have possibly lost on Legion if I happen to be playing Legion. And if I'm on one of my mains like Nurse....nice BNP I guess.
But a survivor can very easily die because of RNG, get hooked in that area that they just died in (usually for a reason), and then not be able to get out of that area. They're just dead. 10 second BT is a trivial thing for a lot of killer powers. Realistically, what is a survivor going to do after a swamp corner hook against Wesker, for example? Hindsight is always perfect, but players don't have the ability to equip the perfect loadout for any situation on the fly. It's way too easy for a survivor to spend a few minutes in queue, spend 5 minutes in game, and come out of it with 10k BP. That's not healthy.
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Well, i recently got bashed on this forum for using Distortion and Calm Spirit - It was unfair for the team, and i was pushing chases on them.
Im open to suggestions if you have any specific perk suggestions.
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I get salt for playing an m1 killer with no perks/add-ons, no tunneling, and giving survivors an "extra hook" with slugs. Play your way because both sides have gotten toxic about it
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I know I hop in only to do my dailies and then immediately quit for the day for the most part. Either it's the SBMM system dealing out the most unbalanced games of all time or toxic players in my games (on both sides), neither of which are worth dealing with when I can be playing other games.
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For years we have been preaching to the same choir about how Tunneling and really Camping too (sidenote: I know your OP is about Tunneling) are the reasons that are ruining their game.
The problem to me appears to be the disconnect between what they want their game to BE and what it actually IS. Why? Because used to they would say "If you're getting camped or the killer tunnels focus gens", mind you this is even written as a TIP! for newer players which is ridiculous. Now that doesn't work because gen times were extended (see update 6.1) while perks have also been introduced (No Way Out, Ultimate Weapon, DeadLock etc) that only ENHANCED the playstyle.
So what I mean when I say that they want their game to play a certain way, is that they think repairing generators as fast as possible is the solution to these playstyles they couldn't be more wrong. Tunneling is neither prevented nor avoided, it can be slowed down depending on MAP/Set ups RNG and the survivor bringing in OTR/DS but other than that there isn't much you can do. Nevermind the fact that those two playstyles are huge contributors to why killers get away with certain things... and yet the devs treat them as if they are only a small percentage of what happens during a match.
So when it comes to rewarding the killer with points so they are encouraged not to tunnel, I respecfully disagree because they don't honestly care about more points when they can easily get over 30k points by tunneling someone out first... and also most people who tunnel do it because its there. They do not require a "reason", and this should certainly not factor in when we are talking about something that would balance the game. Like imagine if BHVR added a way to immediately finish a gen in 5 seconds, but only if the survivors "chose" to depending on how they were feeling that day? It would be just as ridiculous as what is happening now.
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maybe, but being eliminated early is a big cost if that tactic doesn't pay off.
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When does tunneling not pay off?
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