SWFS are only 3% more likely to win than SoloQ (OFFICIAL STATS)

• Did the kills all happen at the end because the killer had NOED and they played altruisticly? I could give you examples of games where i get 1-2 hooks and the game goes horrible, but i get a 4k because they didn't expect the NOED. I wouldn't exactly consider that a "balanced match"

Why wouldn't we count those? That's the game. It's not meant to be even ('balanced match') the whole way through. It's meant that killers can being having a generally bad game but turn things around in their favor really quickly.

I have no real problem with Xeno. Turrets work fine as a deterrence. At least from my experience.

Otherwise, Xeno is still way better than nurse. A Nurse that is on point has 0 counterplay. I like the game being designed around looping, pallets and windows. All 3 are not present in Nurse gameplay.

I'm saddened that you have no Ideas für Skull merchant. Many people just want to see her gone. It's easy to fuel the hate train but harder to actually be constructive.

Why would you further decrease Chuckys flick btw.? It's already too small for a lot of tricks.

Its always been counted before.

Pre-MMR it was counted. It also says "Escaped" at the end of the match when you leave via hatch.

It’s never been clearly stated by the developers that hatch escapes counts toward escape rates, despite the endgame tally screen saying “escaped”. We know for sure hatch escapes are a null as far as MMR goes. I’m willing to bet hatch escapes, considering they’re a null as far as MMR goes (which correlates to escape rates) do not count toward escape rates. I wanna say something similar was either implied or outright stated about slugging and kill rates but I could be incorrect about that part.

The bots we know though, right? To get a bot you need a disconnect, so that whole game isn't counted.

I was always under the impression that hatch escapes didn't count toward the escape rates, but now that you bring it up I can see the fact that it is null MMR does not necessarily mean it isn't counted here.

So Solo Q isn't that bad after all, same escape rate as SWF

I'm pretty sure they're referring to the reworked Ruin prior to 6.1.0, but I could be wrong.

Even so, the time it took for them to find the totem (which, let's be brutally honest, wasn't that much in many games) is now instead time they spend re-doing a generator you've taken comparatively more progress off, or going and doing something else while they wait for the gen-block to wear off. The argument could absolutely be that Ruin/Undying/Pop was healthier, but it can't possibly be that it was stronger.

Compare that to running Pain Res and Pop now. The survivors may not be going and cleansing a totem, but the game's slowed down by more because of how much more gen progress is being regressed with the new tools.

Smaller differences as I though well that confirms game is bit killer sided even in high mmr. Though 4 man would escaped well above 50% in high mmr. I would expect kill rate to be lower around 55-58% overall. SoloQ kill rate I would expected to be even higher.

I could point to streamers/youtubers that are quite skilled and don't tunnel and camp, for the record, it's cherrypicking either way. I would also like to point out, independent of that fact, Otz would've been tunnelling and camping because he was doing winstreaks where the entire point is minimise even the slightest potential of losing.

In a regular game, without that extreme incentive, you don't need to be 100% optimal all the time to stand a decent chance of winning, especially considering you and I stand a very small statistical chance of being in Otz's skill range.

Spreading hooks becomes much stronger when you buy yourself time to do it well and make a few mistakes. Time like, for instance, what you'd get when there's no generator progress being made at all for twelve seconds.

Also, it mustn't be breezed past that there's a difference between "not optimal" and "weak". Spreading hooks is very efficient and strong if you have good macro gameplay, it's only strictly weaker than tunnelling because of how hard to punish tunnelling is.

Many killers consider anything less than a 4k a loss.

Because if ever single game where the killer won ended up like that, do you think that would make the game fair and balanced? And thats not a gameplay loop that is fun for either side.

Well that's moving the goalposts a lot. We've gone from not counting to every game.

Is it fun as survivor to be playing well the whole match, and lose simply because the killer hit you with noed at slightly the wrong time?

Um, yes? That's what makes survivor fun in the long run.

Is it fun in the moment? No, its agonizing to die when the escape is so close. But that's what makes survivor exciting, the knowledge that the situation can be turned around on you at any moment. Escapes as survivor feel much more rewarding than victory in other games because the intensity stays until the end of the match.

It's what makes DbD appealing. If I'm playing a team deathmatch style symmetrical game and my team jumps out to a significant lead, we're going to win. The game becomes uninteresting. DbD doesn't work like that, just because the survivors are outplaying the killer doesn't mean they are safe.

Is it fun as the killer to get completely stomped the entire game until noed carries you?

If you don't find it fun the solution here is easy as you don't have to take the perk. But if you have the perk and plan around it, then yes, it can be quite a bit of fun. Snatching victory away from the survivors is exactly the thing many killers are looking for.

But at this point you are arguing against a point i shouldn't have even brought up because it isn't really relevant to the discussion.

The reason I spent time on the other posts is that I think a lot of people want DbD to be something its not. We all have things we don't like about the game and wish we could change, but a personal dislike is different from it not working.

I'd like to stick actually on topic and talk about how the stats are useless.

Stats aren't useless. As BHVR has said, they don't tell the whole story. A stat alone might also have multiple reasons why it might be true, but they certainly aren't useless.

Sure, swfs are as good as solo q according to the stats. So everyone should stop complaining. Stats are leading.

It stands to reason that the killer that has the highest kill rate that is 10% above the balance line deserves a nerf right? That would imply they are too strong. Similarly, one that is 10% below the line, needs a buff, like nurse. Right?

SoloQ escape rate is Hatch included, without Hatch it would drop to 10% escape rate lol

1) We don't know how exactly hatch is counted. It's counted as a draw in terms of MMR but there is no draw when it comes to the kill / escape ratio.

2) That would imply, that the solo escape rate without hatch is 0%, which is obviously wrong.

I brought up the stats are bad, you said they are good. So i asked you if you believe the conclusions the stats lead you down, that skull merchant is the best killer in the game, and nurse is one of the worst. Then you brought up a hypothetical. I mentioned why that hypothetical won't exist.

This never happened with me.

I've been in lots of discussions with you and this is a frequent occurrence where your responses feel like they are to an entirely different argument. If I was being generous I'd say its because you take all of the arguments of people disagreeing with you and lump them together.

The Skull Merchant conversation is one that happened with @radiantHero23 and @JeanGreyarea - You dropped out of the conversation with radiant when he pointed out, accurately, that you were saying things he had never said.

Hypothetical - I have no idea what you are talking about. I did a quick search of the thread and can't find it.

Stats - I think pretty much everyone recognizes that there are other things that influence the stats and we can disagree over what has caused them to look the way they do. I'd say the stats are useful.

And now you are arguing against that hypothetical. So my point is. You are strawmanning. So. Lets get back on the actual topic instead of the strawman you have built up.

I've posted three times before this post. Unless this post starts a page 5, all my posts have been on page 4, and one was to @Pulsar.

My initial post I disagreed with your assertion that NOED kills somehow shouldn't count. That's it, I didn't jump on any other conversation.

To my first post you countered that it wouldn't be fun if every game was like that.

I then responded that no one ever said every game, you jumped to that. I then talked about how those matches are critical to the playstyle of the game and can be very fun.

I can reset this conversation by asking you a simple question which will lead us to down the path of trying to find out what you believe.

Simple.

Should this game be balanced around high level players, the best of the best high MMR. Or should the game be balanced around average level (the vast majority) of players?

I'll save you the time because we've been down the road before and I've seen you do it with others. You treat it as a trump card that exposes hypocrisy when its really a bad argument.

First, its a false dichotomy. That is you are presenting a question as if there are only two options when there are many more.

Most people say around the middle or the average, which is a general statement that you then treat as an absolute. You set up the question with a 'simple' implying a basic answer, but you then treat responses as if they've made an overarching statement that can never be deviated from. There also becomes disagreement about what it means to 'balance around the middle' where you've made arguments that I thought exactly fall into that definition.

From there you either post the TF2 video or ask where are the Nurse buffs. The TF2 video is fine, but what its discussing usually doesn't apply to DbD.

On the Nurse buffs there are three responses - you are confusing game balance with game design, that many people just want a Nurse rework, or that Nurse should be evened out (buffed and nerfed).

I've never seen you respond to any of those issues, but its possible I missed it. So if you just want to jump to that point we can.

Agree with all of that, but one thing I'd add on Pig. I suspect if you mapped Pinhead/Sadako on a kill rate / MMR graph you'd see a slow linear decline. For Pig I think you'd see a sudden quick drop somewhere in the middle. Reason being if Pig can get a down / headtrap before the first couple gens pop, then the Pig is in great position. Once the Pig gets to an MMR though were it becomes normal for multiple gens to pop before the first chase ends, that first headtrap isn't nearly as strong.

So I think there's a good chance that Pig somewhere has a breakpoint in the MMR were she becomes a lot less viable.