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SWFS are only 3% more likely to win than SoloQ (OFFICIAL STATS)
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When did I say I wasn’t winning? I’m talking the matches in which you load in and have no chance. I used to be able to play for chases and have success, since gen regression was strong. Now even against a group that isn’t that great, I have to play in a very defensive way. It’s boring. Killer should be balanced around chases, which I think everyone can agree is the fun part of the game.
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58.50 pretty good. And I think the game is the most balanced it's been. All that needs to be done is make bad perks and killers up to par. " Looks at fired up. And up the antie" ... yeah
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Did the kills all happen at the end because the killer had NOED and they played altruisticly? I could give you examples of games where i get 1-2 hooks and the game goes horrible, but i get a 4k because they didn't expect the NOED. I wouldn't exactly consider that a "balanced match"
Why wouldn't we count those? That's the game. It's not meant to be even ('balanced match') the whole way through. It's meant that killers can being having a generally bad game but turn things around in their favor really quickly.
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Reading alot of these comments I can see why the devs aren't big on sharing stats. They said "please try not to draw any conclusions from data alone... It’s important to dig deeper to understand the context behind the numbers you see," and yet everyone's here arguing these stats at face value lol
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I have no real problem with Xeno. Turrets work fine as a deterrence. At least from my experience.
Otherwise, Xeno is still way better than nurse. A Nurse that is on point has 0 counterplay. I like the game being designed around looping, pallets and windows. All 3 are not present in Nurse gameplay.
I'm saddened that you have no Ideas für Skull merchant. Many people just want to see her gone. It's easy to fuel the hate train but harder to actually be constructive.
Why would you further decrease Chuckys flick btw.? It's already too small for a lot of tricks.
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Exact hatch doesn't increase/decrease MMR.
Post edited by EQWashu on2 -
It doesn't, but it still counts as an escape.
I'm not sure why you're conflating MMR and Escape Rates, so far as I can tell, they've nothing to do with each other.
Post edited by EQWashu on5 -
True, i didnt think of that. Do we know that it counts as an escape?
As far as i know, escaping as survivor grants MMR. But hatch, as you said, also counts as an escape. However, its an escape that doesnt grant MMR.
Do we have an exact statement on how hatch is included in the stats?
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Its always been counted before.
Pre-MMR it was counted. It also says "Escaped" at the end of the match when you leave via hatch.
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But do we have confirmation on how it is counted in these stats? Due to the mmr changes, this could be different as well. Do you have any confirmed insight on that?
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It’s never been clearly stated by the developers that hatch escapes counts toward escape rates, despite the endgame tally screen saying “escaped”. We know for sure hatch escapes are a null as far as MMR goes. I’m willing to bet hatch escapes, considering they’re a null as far as MMR goes (which correlates to escape rates) do not count toward escape rates. I wanna say something similar was either implied or outright stated about slugging and kill rates but I could be incorrect about that part.
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No. We do not.
We also have no confirmation that Mori's, Condemned or bot kills count either.
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The bots we know though, right? To get a bot you need a disconnect, so that whole game isn't counted.
I was always under the impression that hatch escapes didn't count toward the escape rates, but now that you bring it up I can see the fact that it is null MMR does not necessarily mean it isn't counted here.
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I was more meaning about how mmr views bot kills.
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So Solo Q isn't that bad after all, same escape rate as SWF
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Because if ever single game where the killer won ended up like that, do you think that would make the game fair and balanced? And thats not a gameplay loop that is fun for either side.
Is it fun as survivor to be playing well the whole match, and lose simply because the killer hit you with noed at slightly the wrong time? Is it fun as the killer to get completely stomped the entire game until noed carries you?
But at this point you are arguing against a point i shouldn't have even brought up because it isn't really relevant to the discussion. I'd like to stick actually on topic and talk about how the stats are useless.
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I want to be able to hook someone, and make it to another person on a gen without losing multiple gens. I want to play a tile and have some chance at a mindgame that isn’t massively in the survivor’s favor. Irrespective of how good your chases are, the math literally isn’t there for a killer to be able to chase. You have to wait near the hook and patrol gens in that area.
Every single other era of DBD had better gen regression. I haven’t played in 6 months. Current gen regression is either not impactful enough, or too situational. COB, overcharge, surge, ruin, are unusable. Pain res is way too rng, and there are tons of matches in which I get little to no value. Corrupt, which I have never liked, still allows multiple gens to be worked on and becomes a dead perk very early on. I want to chase, not basically stand in place until someone comes to save.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
Legitimate question: What was actually stronger about the old Pop/Ruin meta when the % damage was proportionally lower and there were fewer options for getting it?
Time.
Have you ever heard that Hex: Ruin was a perk used to slow the game down (just a little bit)? Monto said it on many of his killer videos, and it is an extremely accurate description of what that perk did.
The original versions of Ruin were really good perks. Even though it was possible to power through those Hex Skill Checks, most survivors would go on a totem hunt when they saw Ruin was being used. And if you got lucky with your totem spots, that was really, really good for you.
Alone, Hex: Ruin was easily the king of the killer meta back then. But PGTW was the back-up. If survivors don't go on a totem hunt, they had to either power through Ruin or resort to gen-tapping. That makes the progress go slower, giving you a bigger window to intercept and damage that generator with PGTW. Not to mention, the perk will be there if Ruin gets cleansed.
That combination was so helpful that immediately after the Ruin rework some killers got a bit confused as to what they should run and how to approach the game, especially around Green Ranks. Those were some of the easiest trials I ever had as survivor.
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I'm pretty sure they're referring to the reworked Ruin prior to 6.1.0, but I could be wrong.
Even so, the time it took for them to find the totem (which, let's be brutally honest, wasn't that much in many games) is now instead time they spend re-doing a generator you've taken comparatively more progress off, or going and doing something else while they wait for the gen-block to wear off. The argument could absolutely be that Ruin/Undying/Pop was healthier, but it can't possibly be that it was stronger.
Compare that to running Pain Res and Pop now. The survivors may not be going and cleansing a totem, but the game's slowed down by more because of how much more gen progress is being regressed with the new tools.
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That's just running down why those perks are weaker.
The current regression meta is just flat stronger as long as you use the currently very strong perks. Even looking just at regression (which is a mistake since other forms of gen defence are also stronger now), you've got Pain Res, Eruption (depending on killer), Surge (depending on map), and of course, still Pop. Even accounting for perks that were changed in 6.1.0, they are proportionately stronger than before that patch-- take Surge. It's always had a number of 8%, but it's now 8% of 90 instead of 8% of 80. Even disregarding the cooldown buff, it's just stronger than it used to be. Eruption retained its % buff from 6.1.0 so it's better off for actual regression, and Pain Res was reworked to provide stronger regression after that patch.
Add in the other forms of gen defence for the overall slowdown meta, and it's just stronger than before, there's no competition. Ruin/Pop might've been healthier, but it was weaker.
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Well I disagree. Back when those perks were meta, I was able to take way more chases. Now I have to camp/tunnel. I didn’t magically get worse at the game. I’m not sure what you’re seeing. Gens regressing, at a fast rate, without having to kick them was incredibly powerful. Compare that to pain res, which only works once per survivor, is attached to rng, and doesn’t even tell you which gen is being worked on. Even in the worst scenarios, old Ruin provided more consistent value and slowdown.
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If you're not able to take chases and have to camp and tunnel in the current state of the game, there's something wrong with your macro gameplay. If you're bringing the strong tools and you're making sure to occupy multiple survivors at once (etc etc, I'm assuming I don't have to explain macro gameplay), the slowdown meta is considerably stronger than before.
Even if you don't like Pain Res, even if you want passive slowdown, there's so many strong options. Deadlock and Grim Embrace, for instance, are very powerful stall tools that don't require you to go out of your way, if what you liked was the passive nature of Ruin.
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Smaller differences as I though well that confirms game is bit killer sided even in high mmr. Though 4 man would escaped well above 50% in high mmr. I would expect kill rate to be lower around 55-58% overall. SoloQ kill rate I would expected to be even higher.
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They aren’t the end all be all obviously, but I see the same thing happening when I watch DBD streamers. Unless they are playing blight, they have to use some form of camping/tunneling to win. During his infamous streaks, Otz directly said he was tunneling and camping people whenever possible. What’s more likely: me and the professional streamers lack game sense, or that there is a balance problem?
I dislike grim embrace even more than pain res. 12 second blocking isn’t impactful and spreading hooks is not the optimal way to play. I tested out various builds with it, and then I took it off. I always had more success by, again, camping and tunneling. There’s no reason to run grim embrace because it’s counter to the effective strategy.
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I could point to streamers/youtubers that are quite skilled and don't tunnel and camp, for the record, it's cherrypicking either way. I would also like to point out, independent of that fact, Otz would've been tunnelling and camping because he was doing winstreaks where the entire point is minimise even the slightest potential of losing.
In a regular game, without that extreme incentive, you don't need to be 100% optimal all the time to stand a decent chance of winning, especially considering you and I stand a very small statistical chance of being in Otz's skill range.
Spreading hooks becomes much stronger when you buy yourself time to do it well and make a few mistakes. Time like, for instance, what you'd get when there's no generator progress being made at all for twelve seconds.
Also, it mustn't be breezed past that there's a difference between "not optimal" and "weak". Spreading hooks is very efficient and strong if you have good macro gameplay, it's only strictly weaker than tunnelling because of how hard to punish tunnelling is.
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Stepping in for a moment; let's keep the discussion civil and on topic, please.
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I play to win every match, so I play optimally. Like you can argue (though I disagree) that you don’t have to camp/tunnel, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s more effective. I’ve experimented with many builds/playstyles in my time playing dbd, and playing defensively is almost always the better option. Spreading hooks only works if the survivors aren’t doing gens. By the time a non-mobile killer walks away from the hook to a gen the survivors are working on, they will have decent progress on it. While that’s happening, someone else is getting an uncontested save. It’s more efficient to be in the area to prevent or contest the unhook, and an even greater thing if there are gens near the hook. Camping puts pressure on the survivors to eat health states, or risk a 3v1.
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i would like to add that not every SWF is a 10k hours sweat squad 9000 but just a group of friends that like to have fun :)
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Okay, so just stack slowdown and tunnel if winning is your only goal.
I really don't see what your issue is. You lose a match every hundred games, it's not a big deal. I get it, it sucks when you feel like you haven't been outplayed but rather have just been put into an instant loss.
Guess what, those last hundred games you tunneled, proxy'd and run four slowdowns? I bet those people thought the same thing, but your response would likely be that it's a skill issue for them, but somehow it isn't for you.
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It is definitely more often than 1in 100….lol. Not really sure what you’re saying. I don’t see how playing optimally is a skill issue. Nowhere did I say that the survivors playing optimally is a skill issue. My gripe is that BHVR incentivizes the killer to play in a boring way more and more with each update. Their solution to everything is to nuke perks, while not addressing core gameplay issues. The vast majority of core issues that they do address are on the survivor side, leading to the killer being at a further disadvantage.
It’s frustrating because I think, in the past, the game has been in a better spot and leaned more towards skill being the determining factor. Unfortunately, complaining has pushed the meta to what it is now. Players aren’t expected to learn, and balancing changes pretty much address the loudest voices in the room, with little consideration of whether these complaints are valid or not.
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Yeah its a player issue at that point
like first you tunnel every game with 4 slow downs and win most of your games. But the moment you lose one game its all complaints from there.
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Okay, so we get rid of tunneling, that way the game is focused more on "skill"
I actually think @Reinami had a very good idea regarding this a couple weeks ago that I quite liked.
Neither side has any wiggle room anymore, that I agree with. However, what I do not agree with is this notion your floating about being able to play sub-optimally and still win against an optimal team (assuming a reasonably fair match in terms of skill level)
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Yes, I’m saying the game should be balanced around hooks, not kills. Chasing is the main skill part of the game, and the most fun. The problem is that you are mostly locked out of this part against optimal teams. I don’t mind meta or optimal play, but I feel DBD’s current meta loop is the worst it has ever been.
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I don't get why they only showed the High MMR and Overall and not Low MMR too. Because I'm stuck in low MMR as survivor, I escape maybe 1/5 matches (20%) without counting hatch escapes (which doesn't affect the MMR), I play in SWF very rarely too but in duo, not a complete premade and most of the times this happen due team mates playing really bad, lasting 15 seconds in chase, hidding, not repairing and so on. I'm not specially good but I can asure that I'm better than at least two of my team mates in most of the matches and I'm always feeling that I'm being paired with people below my skill, also, I'm being paired with people with 50-100 hours quite frequently. I think the main problem of this is the MMR only take into consideration the escapes, not your performance in the match (altruistic actions, boldness,...).
As killer is a different story, I'm mostly OK with my matches and the skill of people I'm playing against, sometimes they are worse than me, sometimes they are better and sometimes we are at the same skill level. It doesn't feel as polarized as the survivor experience.
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Many killers consider anything less than a 4k a loss.
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Asymmetric simply means different size teams with different roles. It does not mean one side needs to win more than the other on average. That's something BHVR made up to fulfill some kind of horror fantasy in their words. If you polled most survivors though I think the majority would prefer returning to a fair 50% kill rate which all MMR games are based on.
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Because if ever single game where the killer won ended up like that, do you think that would make the game fair and balanced? And thats not a gameplay loop that is fun for either side.Well that's moving the goalposts a lot. We've gone from not counting to every game.
Is it fun as survivor to be playing well the whole match, and lose simply because the killer hit you with noed at slightly the wrong time?Um, yes? That's what makes survivor fun in the long run.
Is it fun in the moment? No, its agonizing to die when the escape is so close. But that's what makes survivor exciting, the knowledge that the situation can be turned around on you at any moment. Escapes as survivor feel much more rewarding than victory in other games because the intensity stays until the end of the match.
It's what makes DbD appealing. If I'm playing a team deathmatch style symmetrical game and my team jumps out to a significant lead, we're going to win. The game becomes uninteresting. DbD doesn't work like that, just because the survivors are outplaying the killer doesn't mean they are safe.
Is it fun as the killer to get completely stomped the entire game until noed carries you?If you don't find it fun the solution here is easy as you don't have to take the perk. But if you have the perk and plan around it, then yes, it can be quite a bit of fun. Snatching victory away from the survivors is exactly the thing many killers are looking for.
But at this point you are arguing against a point i shouldn't have even brought up because it isn't really relevant to the discussion.The reason I spent time on the other posts is that I think a lot of people want DbD to be something its not. We all have things we don't like about the game and wish we could change, but a personal dislike is different from it not working.
I'd like to stick actually on topic and talk about how the stats are useless.Stats aren't useless. As BHVR has said, they don't tell the whole story. A stat alone might also have multiple reasons why it might be true, but they certainly aren't useless.
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Okay, so soloq should stop complaining as they are just as strong as swf. Fair.
So how about killers stop complaining swf is so overpowered? Not fair?
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Sure, swfs are as good as solo q according to the stats. So everyone should stop complaining. Stats are leading.
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Where do you get that from? The stats talk about kill rate, and presumably accuratly.
There is not even a metric about good or bad killer, that is just an interpretation of the kill rate done by you.
First, define what a good or bad killer is, and then lets see how the kill rate relate to that, and then we can discuss if the data represents that accuratly.
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It stands to reason that the killer that has the highest kill rate that is 10% above the balance line deserves a nerf right? That would imply they are too strong. Similarly, one that is 10% below the line, needs a buff, like nurse. Right?
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My point is you are arguing with a strawman at this point.
I brought up the stats are bad, you said they are good. So i asked you if you believe the conclusions the stats lead you down, that skull merchant is the best killer in the game, and nurse is one of the worst. Then you brought up a hypothetical. I mentioned why that hypothetical won't exist. And now you are arguing against that hypothetical. So my point is. You are strawmanning. So. Lets get back on the actual topic instead of the strawman you have built up.
I can reset this conversation by asking you a simple question which will lead us to down the path of trying to find out what you believe.
Simple.
Should this game be balanced around high level players, the best of the best high MMR. Or should the game be balanced around average level (the vast majority) of players?
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SoloQ escape rate is Hatch included, without Hatch it would drop to 10% escape rate lol
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why nobody considered Hatch as escape? lol the only reason soloq have high escape rate is HATCH otherwise their escape rate will be 4% with hatch is like 10% x4 survivor = 40% just like the stats lol
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1) We don't know how exactly hatch is counted. It's counted as a draw in terms of MMR but there is no draw when it comes to the kill / escape ratio.
2) That would imply, that the solo escape rate without hatch is 0%, which is obviously wrong.
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I brought up the stats are bad, you said they are good. So i asked you if you believe the conclusions the stats lead you down, that skull merchant is the best killer in the game, and nurse is one of the worst. Then you brought up a hypothetical. I mentioned why that hypothetical won't exist.This never happened with me.
I've been in lots of discussions with you and this is a frequent occurrence where your responses feel like they are to an entirely different argument. If I was being generous I'd say its because you take all of the arguments of people disagreeing with you and lump them together.
The Skull Merchant conversation is one that happened with @radiantHero23 and @JeanGreyarea - You dropped out of the conversation with radiant when he pointed out, accurately, that you were saying things he had never said.
Hypothetical - I have no idea what you are talking about. I did a quick search of the thread and can't find it.
Stats - I think pretty much everyone recognizes that there are other things that influence the stats and we can disagree over what has caused them to look the way they do. I'd say the stats are useful.
And now you are arguing against that hypothetical. So my point is. You are strawmanning. So. Lets get back on the actual topic instead of the strawman you have built up.I've posted three times before this post. Unless this post starts a page 5, all my posts have been on page 4, and one was to @Pulsar.
My initial post I disagreed with your assertion that NOED kills somehow shouldn't count. That's it, I didn't jump on any other conversation.
To my first post you countered that it wouldn't be fun if every game was like that.
I then responded that no one ever said every game, you jumped to that. I then talked about how those matches are critical to the playstyle of the game and can be very fun.
I can reset this conversation by asking you a simple question which will lead us to down the path of trying to find out what you believe.Simple.Should this game be balanced around high level players, the best of the best high MMR. Or should the game be balanced around average level (the vast majority) of players?I'll save you the time because we've been down the road before and I've seen you do it with others. You treat it as a trump card that exposes hypocrisy when its really a bad argument.
First, its a false dichotomy. That is you are presenting a question as if there are only two options when there are many more.
Most people say around the middle or the average, which is a general statement that you then treat as an absolute. You set up the question with a 'simple' implying a basic answer, but you then treat responses as if they've made an overarching statement that can never be deviated from. There also becomes disagreement about what it means to 'balance around the middle' where you've made arguments that I thought exactly fall into that definition.
From there you either post the TF2 video or ask where are the Nurse buffs. The TF2 video is fine, but what its discussing usually doesn't apply to DbD.
On the Nurse buffs there are three responses - you are confusing game balance with game design, that many people just want a Nurse rework, or that Nurse should be evened out (buffed and nerfed).
I've never seen you respond to any of those issues, but its possible I missed it. So if you just want to jump to that point we can.
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For the part that i talked about (Skull mercchant), i want to remind, that stats have to be imterpreted. If we just take anything as it stands, we wont get anywhere. This is working with statistics. Of ccourse Skull mercchant isnt the strongest killer in the game. Not by a long shot. Neither are Pig or Freddy stronger than Nurse.
One has to ask themselves on how these stats are created and whos information is taken. Then the picture becomes a lot clearer.
Skull merchant is propably so high, because many still are heavily biased towards her and give up as soon as they hear her music or see a drone. She also has a ton of status effects that make it harder for newer survivvor players to realize whats going on.
Pig, Sadako and Pinhead all have a side objective for survivors to deal with. A majority of the playerbase consists of pretty causal players that do not put in thousands of hours to leanr one role or character. For these peopole even a Pig can be a real threat in chase. Then dealing with the traps can become a real trouble. Pinhead and Sadako can be even worse in that regard.
Nurse is presumably that low, because she has a very different playstyle compared to other characters. Many people play one game, ar sick of getting no hits whatsoever, looking down all the time, get insulted and tbagged in the exit gate and drop her to go back to Wraith.
These are all just assumptions of course. But to me, the statistics make a lot of sense. They are also the only 100% accurate facts that we have because they come directly from the developers.
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Agree with all of that, but one thing I'd add on Pig. I suspect if you mapped Pinhead/Sadako on a kill rate / MMR graph you'd see a slow linear decline. For Pig I think you'd see a sudden quick drop somewhere in the middle. Reason being if Pig can get a down / headtrap before the first couple gens pop, then the Pig is in great position. Once the Pig gets to an MMR though were it becomes normal for multiple gens to pop before the first chase ends, that first headtrap isn't nearly as strong.
So I think there's a good chance that Pig somewhere has a breakpoint in the MMR were she becomes a lot less viable.
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As a 2200h+ Pig main i agree for the most part. I dont know where my mmr is (just like anybody else) but i recently played against Knightlight. So i guess im where he is. The traps can be viable even if the first down took 3 gens. Its all up to the rng at this point. Pig is not fit for tournament because most of the comp teams embrace pre dropping to their fullest. Pig cant do much there. She gets her downs WAY too late. Maybe one trap for 5 gens. Survivor teams at that level dont give you room to even make any plays. They just deny it completely. Luckily, public matrches are a lot different. Even the best teams filled with high level players make big mistakes, that can cost them the match in seconds.
Piggy is difficult to rate. Shes by far not the best, but also not nearly as bad as some of the community make her seem like.
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I'm going to disengage from you at this point since you want to continue arguing against a strawman and not have discussions in good faith. If you would like to reset the conversation and continue talking, you can answer my previous question
Should this game be balanced around high level players (top mmr) or average players (where most players are)
If you aren't willing to go on that route and want to continue arguing with a strawman then i'll just move on from this discussion. No point in continuing if someone won't do so in good faith.
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