SWFs need to be handicapped in some way to balance how game breaking they are
Something like shutting off aura reading perks or slowing their repair speeds down because with voice comms they in effect have access to every information perk in the game.
It's an advantage a killer has no way to counter.
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Orrrrrrr we could fix the fundamental problems with solo queue so that there isn't a discrepancy between their power level and then balance the game around that.
I mean I get it. Playing against a 4 man who call out every trap you place as Trapper or Hag, or are constantly giving away your position as a stealth killer, etc. is frustrating. But punishing players for queuing with their friends is not the way to go about solving this problem.
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The devs have stated they dont intend to split "survivor" balancing into "solo" and "swf".
Technically we could just give survivors voicechat and the technical differences would be gone. But the problem arent game mechanics, it's the survivor mindset.
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yeah, swf has been breaking this game since 2016 but unfortunately somehow this game still running till date
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Swf isn't a problem. The team in the team game should have comms of some sort
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SWFs are a problem balance wise. Anyone who says otherwise just doesn't want to admit it.
Probably because every competitor that has tried to challenge DbD has gone belly up due to low player counts or even worse balancing than DbD (See also: VHS).
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BHVR just released data showing SWF isn't escaping that much more than solo. This SWF are "game breaking" thing is needs to be retired. Even at high MMR they are barely getting two players out most of the time. Having a 40 - 50% escape rate is not broken, it's a fair challenge.
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In that case we would have to buff every single killer that isn't Nurse or Blight. Even other strong killers like Spirit would need to be buffed. And then it would turn into a game where with comms it's manageable but if even 1 person isn't on comms it's unplayable. I'm 100% against Voice Chat in DBD. Competitive games with comms ALWAYS go the way of people not using it = insta loss, so forcing people to be on comms or lose isn't healthy in my eyes.
And to clarify by "Competitive" I simply mean a game with 2 teams of Human players.
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That they have every information perk in the game just by being on cons is just objectively wrong. They don't see Gen auras in indoor maps or whatnot, just to name one example, already invalidating your statement. However they are able to share the information they gather, I don't see how making information perks not working on them helps in any way, because generally speaking those types of perks are considered less good then for example chase or 2nd chance perks (as they get called, even though I don't really agree on them actually being 2nd chance, but that is a different topic).
The solution should just be to implement some sort of communication so the gap between both groups when it comes to communicating information gets smaller or almost closed.
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...Or we could look at the official stats, and notice that solo q is extremely close to 2-SWF and 3-SWF... and it's really just 4-SWF at high MMR that is broken.
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What does that have to do with what I said?
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"Orrrrrrr we could fix the fundamental problems with solo queue so that there isn't a discrepancy between their power level and then balance the game around that."
The official stats show there isn't a fundamental problem between the power level of most solo q and most SWF. It's just a very small percentage of the 4-SWF players that have an imbalance. And the imbalance requires players to be in high MMR, and most survivors aren't high MMR, and most survivors could never be high MMR.
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They don't need it. Proof is literally in the lastest data drop.
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The official stats show there isn't a fundamental problem between the power level of most solo q and most SWF
Could simply mean most SWF are just bad... or they are simply friends playing casually...
That doesn't mean there is no room for QoL changes for survivors that will target mainly soloQ.
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why do ppl assume 4 man SWF = god tier team all around......could just be 4 friends who enjoy playing together?
high mmr is a diff story but ppl see or assume it's a SWF and immediately think that's why they lost
probably not
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Is having a 48% survival rate broken? To me, broken is something that is either unbeatable or almost impossible to beat. Infinite loops are broken. Boil Over on certain maps is broken. High MMR SWF having a 48% chance of surviving is about as balanced as you can get. BHVR wanting killers to win 60% of the time doesn't mean the game is balanced between killers and survivors, it just means that the outcome is what they want it to be.
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People who think that Voice Comms are the big advantage of SWF should not say anything in Balance Discussions. Because they disqualify themselves by saying this immediatly.
The strength of SWF is that you can choose your teammates. You remove the RNG. You have 4 competent Survivors in your team.
That being said, not many SWFs will be 4 competent Survivors. Most of them will just be friends playing together. And there should be no penalty for playing together.
Let alone that the idea of slowing down their Repair Speed (as an example) is just not thought out. What if a 3 man SWF plays with a Solo? The Solo will also be punished because they will have 3 people in their team who are slower on Gens.
And well... The game is more balanced around SWF anyway than it is around Solos. Otherweise SoloQ would not be such a miserable experience. If you struggle as Killer nowadays, SWF is most likely not the problem why you struggle.
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Could limit party size to 3 for public matches. If you have more people who want to play together there's still private matches. I'm biased though. It's almost always me and my favorite person plus one other friend who manage to get together. Sometimes it's more friends, but rarely exactly 4. We're either with a random in a piblic match or playing a private match because we have too many.
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I never said 48% is broken. I'm just saying BHVR's goal is 60/40, and 48% is far away from 40%
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4 man SWF are not always god tier, but those god tier teams that utterly destroy you without giving you any chance to breath or regain your composure are 95% all 4 man SWFs.
And thats why I think that the game would only benefit if we coudl see who was in a SWF AFTER the game. Yes, killers could chalk off their big L to the opposition having "an unfair advantage" for being on coms and using callouts, but it would also show killers that a LOT of their resounding wins and "lucky turnarounds" were actually SWFs of all colors, who took extreme risks, justs because they were playing with their friends and wanted to get everyone out, if they died trying be damned. Thats exactly how me and my SWF friends play, ie we play very risky to get everyone out and if we all die, we laugh it off, but cherish the moments when a daring escape does succeed even more.
Also killers would be surprised how many of the potatoes they play are in SWFs, showing who was in a team with whom would help to defuse the stigma of "SWFs destroying the game" a lot.
Not saying that highly coordinated SWFs aren't problematic and can make feeling playing killer extremely aweful and disgusting. The killer buffs of the recent month have helped a lot to pull that sting out of our flesh, but its still hurting to get utterly destroyed by a SWF and you now seeing what you could have done better. If a SWF sticks to gens and communicate your position, it just feels like fighing an endless swarm that pulls away from your front and always stings at your back.
People also rightfully claim that it ain't wise to punish people for playing with their friends, as thats the most enjoyable part of playing survivor. I have one solution that is a very slight nerf to casual SWFs, a sizable nerf to the ugly ones and non at all to soloQ, could you beliefe that?
Its pretty easy: just don't allow duplicate perks in a SWF and thats it. The casual SWFs would have to coordinate a little bit with their load outs, but in my games we mostly have our own playstyles and very little overlap; what little overlap there is could be ironed out in 5min. But those SWFs that feel like a rolling tide with 4 DH, 4 MFT (back in the days), 3 UB, 4 Sabotage or even 4 Head On with a Dead Dog map offering ... all this would be severely neutered. Of course players would eventually figure out effective ways to utilize four different loadouts, but at least you wouldn't have this "killer as the survivors plaything" playstyle.
The beauty with this mechanic would be, that it would only restrict the builds of players in a SWF, so a soloQ survivor could always pick any perk they want, and 4 soloQ survivors could indeed run 4 DH and 4 UB, as they can't coordinate in that way. But in the end, the most important thing is to show who played with whom in the post game chat, so that we can have an honest conversation about how often the seal team 6 death squads happen .... and how often us killers demolish a full team of gamers who just wanted to hang out with each other and chat while they knocked down a couple gens.
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my point of view on the subject as a person with over 8500 hours in dbd as experienced player, its simple, the game is very balanced right now for both sides, the game is not survivor sided and not killer sided on the highest level.
while the stats shows that killers are stronger than 4men teams overall as evidence that debunk your claims.
you either met people which are better than you, or some cheaters, there is no reason to nerf survivors any more at this point, nerfing survivors any more would def make the game awful for them and since they barely survive now with gen perks says a lot.
i play on top mmr and i win most of my games and could win all of my games if i just play blight/billy/nurse. it says a lot about the power role. u have killers with hundreds of winstreaks, there is no such a thing survivor sided game in dbd, currently the game is balanced in my opinion, nobody give credit to behavior for the balance, people wanted balance and got it, even tho i think the S tier killers needs a light nerf since they are overkill. the S tiers currently are billy/nurse/blight. i mainly play billy thats why i claim it. but u cannot nerf nurse without a rework since she have low stats which are still good since no killer have bad stats anyway.
4men on coms = Killers, No Bias.
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One of the most levelheaded and measured posts here in recent history. I see that you are a new one, please stay and enrich the conversations here :) Take a cookie and sit by the campfire.
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The real problem isn’t SWFS it’s solos that are forcing them to play SWFS because it’s better to rely on your teammates that way.
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As others have pointed out, the real strength of SWF is consistent survs, most likely all competent, getting rid of a lot of the randomness of running solo.
You know you have teammates, not mere allies, and are also not likely to be left behind without serious efforts being made. If on comms you also know loadouts, achievements/challenges/dailies being attempted, and over time tendencies and strengths & weaknesses.
There's simply no way for solos to ever get most of this, not without forcing comms. Showing loadouts in the lobby, or even during the trial, is the last step imo the devs could make to lessen that gap. Anything else would be too detrimental to everyone.
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But on average, killers are winning more matches against 4-person high MMR SWF than they are losing. The only data we have to determine if SWF needs a nerf is the most recent drop. It's either that data or just self-reported personal experiences. They might have an 8% higher escape rate than BHVR wants at 48%, but that's objectively balanced. BHVR's balance is to intentionally favour killer over survivor so the game feels like a horror game. Which it is until you have looped a rock several times and then that feeling is gone for good, and all you are left with is an unbalanced PvP game.
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It's the other way around solo queue should be brought up to swf level
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Frankly the best way to "balance" a swf group is just show survivors who are grouped, weaker killers might dodge, you have the chance to put on stronger perks and addons, you go into the game with a different strategy / mindset ect, indirectly you give them tougher foes
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Almost every game is Pain Res, Grim Embrace, Pop, Corrupt etc anyway. Adding it to the loading lobby would purely be for dodging. That being said, swfs are still losing the majority of games. Sure you may run into that killer swf every now and then, but that’s not on the regular.
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This is not an appropriate interpretation of the data.
BHVR explicitly states that the numbers are just for fun and you shouldn’t draw conclusions from them. And they’re right.
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SWF's aren't a problem until they strap on endurance perks and score an unfair win purely because your hits didn't ######### count.
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It already pretty much is outside of high MMR.
At least as far as we can tell with the data we have access to.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
i will make this clear for all of you,
Killers are just as strong as 4Men on Coms are.
if you meet a Comp Squad that went for pubs to play, why do u think that u deserve to win if they are sweating in this game a lot more than you are and take the game more seriously?
and i could say the same Opposite, many Comp killer mains plays in pubs and stomping every single game easily even against those which u call God squads.
if a Comp killer gets a Comp team in a public match, it can go either way, i dont see any problem there.
that proves that the game is currently balanced around 4men. and i feel really sad for SoloQ, also in SoloQ, u measure the escape rates of like 40%, do u realize that it include hatch right? i personally think that as individual, escaping soloq is a lot lower than it showed because Hatch is included. and hatch will increase ur escape chances by 40% by default but since it split between 4 players it reduced, so basically escaping soloq can go around 10-20% chance. depend on the individual, which is understandable since game is currently balanced around 4men on coms.
if you cant beat Top level survivors in public as B tier killers or above its on u.
there are people with hundreds of winstreak on clown, u wanna tell me those kind of players dont get good teams against them out of those hundreds of games?
i play both sides and im not bias, i got too many hours and experience both in comp and pubs, and with all honesty i can say that SWF is not broken, is totally balanced, if u want to argue then i will argue that Blight and nurse on the highest level are more deadly than any God team, and Billy is also near that level now since i main him i know.
u can deny my post if you dont believe it, but if survivors were so much stronger as people claim then believe me the average winrate of 4men on high rank would be higher than killers which are not btw.
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Swf isn't the issue because nothing stops solo queue players from starting up their own voice chat parties with each other it happens all the time y'all just like to complain
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I play survivor with friends a lot recently. One person is always making terrible decisions, the other logged on high af.
No, SWF doesn't automatically mean a huge advantage. But for those who play the game competitively and more seriously than they probably should, IT IS.
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They should make the comms audible at a certain distance between survivors and the killer. If the killer is within earshot of a talking survivor, the killer should be able to hear them. Also, survivors should be close enough to each other to hear another survivor; instead talking from the other side of the map. That would make the game more realistic and fair. It would allow soloq survivors to talk to each other as well so long as they are close enough.
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