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Pig mains, I call upon thee!
In case you have missed the latest dev update, BHVR have decided to buff (nerf) the Pig. The idea is to make her chase power, the ambush, a bit better and compensate for that by nerfing the traps (RBTs). However, the buff to her ambush is minimal. They applied the following changes:
- Increased Ambush duration to 2.3 seconds (was 2 seconds)
- Decreased Ambush successful attack cooldown to 2.7 seconds (was 3 seconds)
- Decreased Ambush missed attack cooldown to 1.5 seconds (was 2 seconds)
On paper this isn't bad. However, it doesn't really fix her issues. One of her main problems was (and still is) that survivors can simply leave the loop when the Pig starts crouching. This works as long as they aren't properly zoned. In which case her ambush is already quite useful. However, only as long as the pallet is not pre dropped, which will remain an issue.
This leaves her with almost the same strength in chase as before.
But more impactful is the nerf to her RBTs:
- The Pig can no longer see the auras of Jigsaw Boxes
- Reverse Bear Traps now have a base timer of 3 minutes (was 2.5 minutes)
On the surface it may look fine but digging deeper, you'll find it isn't. Not only do you have more time to get rid of your RBT but the Pig player will also no longer be able to play around that part of their power, making her traps much less deadly and removing a lot of her slowdown in the process. The slowdown did not only come from people running across the map and trying to get rid of their trap but also from briefly turning the match into a 1v3, where any more pressure would result in nobody doing gens.
With these changes that will no longer be the case. You now have a lot more time to take care of different objectives even with an active RBT on your head. This means, the 1v3 aspect is gone. Completely. You will now be able to choose when you want to go for the boxes and you also won't have to worry about the Pig chasing you away, because they won't know where the boxes are.
As a result, her lethality and slowdown were nerfed massively. This is terrible and it cannot go live. This should not even have been considered.
Comments
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@UndeddJester , i cant post as often due to being banned to the shadowrealm that is Maliketh´s punching bag, and because im jailed on the Forums right now, you need to call upon the other members of our secret society. We need them all. This is an emergency.
For now, im just gonna copy and post this here:
Im back from the shadowrealm (Elden Ring) and not for good reasons.
I have to quote the Boss im currently biting my nails out: "Tarnished? Why wouldst thou....why....?!!?". Its incredibly fitting on how these changes make me feel.
This is super bad. Im not exaggerating.
Lets start of saying, that the comment in the dev notes that this is a buff is not true. The overall strenght of the Pig will take a massive hit here. Her power level will remain the same AT BEST.
Lets start off with the good stuff:
- Longer ambush (2 sec. to 2.3 sec.)
- Faster ambush cooldowns (hit --> 3 sec. to 2.7 sec. and miss --> 2 sec. to 1.5 sec.)
- Faster stealth movement (3.6 m/s to 3.8 m/s)
- Faster crouching and uncrouching ( 1.3 sec. to 1 sec.).
To put this into perspective:
- Crouch movement speed with medical file: 3.959999 m/s (right now)
- Survivor base movement speed: 4.0 m/s
- Crouching and uncrouching with combat straps: 0,91 sec. (right now)
- Missed attack cooldown: doesnt matter because the player wants to hit. Otherwise, its just wasted time. Pig is not gonna use the ambush to block vaults or pallets
- Longer ambush (new effect)
All great! Great changes to make her a bit more viable in chase. Now where is the rest? ... No? Thats it?
Now to the nerfs:
- The Pig will no longer see auras of the boxes
- The bear trap timer is increased to 3 minutes.
I cant be the only one that sees this right? These buffs DO NOT OUTWEIGHT THE NERFS. Ever had the problem of the survivor just leaving the loop when you start to crouch? You think that problem is gone now? NO! Even with all her best addons, survivors will outrun the ambush. Due to the changes making NO ADDON completely basekit, this WILL NOT CHANGE! Im currently using medical file and combat straps every game. Both addons are give a better effect, than the one that will be on the PTB. Survivors still outrun me by a mile. These addons WILL BE NERFED AND THE BASE EFFECT IS NOT EVEN AS STRONG.
THESE CHANGES WILL NOT INCREASE HER CHASE POTENTIAL ENOUGH TO WARRANT THESE HEAVY NERFS!
30 seconds longer on traps now makes head pops almost impossible. They should not be happening every match by far, but they should also not be something that happens when the survivor has to clean their desk mid match because they accidently pushed over the Doritos.
The aura change just make her even harder to play because now i have to memorize box locations on top of all the other things. A completely unnecessary change that is supposed to nerf her head pop potential.
Both nerfs (especally the 30+ seconds) are COMPLETE OVERKILL! This makes her kill potential non eistant, therefore making traps less lethal, therefore makingh it even easier to play against her because there are 30 seconds more room for huge mistakes.
This match, i had recently is a perfect showcase of this and of why the Pigs traps SHOULD NOT BE NERFED IN THESE WAYS!
Pig on Garden of Joy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z06a3UullRk
THIS IS THE OPTIMAL NERF OT THE TRAPS:
- A survivor searching a box cannot die to the timer running out while searching the box.
PLEASE TAKE THIS INTO CONSIDERATION!!!! It comes from overe 2200h of experience and seems small, but this change is huge for the lethality of the traps, while not being as massive as the changes proposed in the dev notes.
BHVR, YOU WILL NERF THE PIG AGAIN! THIS IS NOT A BUFF.
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Not a Pig main, however i think they increase the crouch movement speed and the speed curve of her ambush it could be worth the heavy nerfs.
If not a speed increase than make Ruleset Nr. 2 basekit.
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@Nun_So_Vile @JPLongstreet @AbsolutGrndZer0 @totallynotamegmain
More to rally friends! You guys are all the active forum Pig mains I know! Please keep the rally going!
This is a butchering of her kit, the buffs are nice and needed, but they do not make her a chase killer... she is not a chase killer, she is a stealth slowdown killer... and the nerfs completely destroy her slowdown...
If you wanna hit her RBTs BHVR, you don't need much. Heck @radiantHero23s suggestion for preventing head pops while on a box and maybe reworking tampered timer would be all it would take to smooth out her nastier gameplay.
Trying to improve her chase is a noble goal, trading off for some RBT power is fine... but currently she is being gutted... her RBTs don't need to be overpowered, but they do need to at least be something you can't ignore.
Please reconsider what you're taking away from her...
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Well said friend!
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I really looked forward for these buffs and again nerfs.
The dash buffs are nice, but nothing compared to the nerfs to her traps.
Now her main part the traps are even more useless, which I think should be buffed not nerfed.
I would change, that the timer is between 2min +10-20s and make, that progress when leaving a box gets lost over time like with haemorrhage to weaken scream builds.
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Agreed, and thanks for tagging me @UndeadJester ! These changes cannot go live, this is the WORST PIG NERF IN HISTORY.
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So much melodrama.
Every time the topic of Pig buffs comes up, and it's fairly often, the consensus is always:
- Buff chase
- Buff crouch
- Buff Ambush
- Buff stealth
- Nerf traps
And that's exactly what we're getting.
Traps are not supposed to be a way to reliably kill survivors. Ideally they should only result in a kill when the survivor ######### up, not when the Pig stalks and harrasses the trapped survivor.
Traps are supposed to be slowdown. 12 box searches guaranteed, 12 seconds each, plus travel time. 144+ seconds of guaranteed slowdown. That's the value of RBTs, and that hasn't been changed one bit.
Increasing the time survivors have to remove their trap doesn't change how long it takes to remove the trap. Hiding auras of boxes doesn't change how long it takes to remove the trap.
There is no nerf here... unless you're a Pig who harrasses a trapped survivor to force a head pop.
This is further convincing me that Pig mains don't actually know how to play Pig. You stick a trap on a survivor then you ignore that survivor until their trap has been removed. It's the single most effective form of slowdown in the game, and the best anti-tunnel mechanic that actually benefits the killer. But instead nearly every Pig I go against tunnels a trapped survivor, wasting their slowdown potential. Apparently all those Pigs frequent this forum.
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You're not wrong that the overall time aspect hasn't been altered, so I do see what you're saying. I do try to stay objective on these discussions, so even though the Pig is my chosen main, I am not close minded to any form of nerf if it makes sense to me.
With that in mind, the problem I see is a more subtle part of the Pig's gameplay is not the ability to force survivors off boxes, but the threat/possibility that she MIGHT force you off jigsaw boxes and/or being caught with little time to spare.
It is already less efficient for the Pig to chase down survivors with head traps. Her chase pauses their timer, so playing to interrupt boxes has the same problem as camping. It might secure you A KILL, but you are likely throwing the game if you're doing it a lot.
The real power of the head traps is not just the time slowdown, but the fact if a survivor messes around by taking time to heal, movimg to stop a gen regressing (esp now with 5%), playing too cautious and stealthy, or even being in a situation where they're the only one available to pull a teammate off hook before they lose a stage... any of these things can lead to a 4 box trap having a good chance of killing you. You have to deal with it reasonably quickly, and you have to make concessions on your time and often take a less optimal choice, just in case you get the bad rng trap (cause there is almost always one).
Adding 30s removes a LOT of that pressure, you now can afford the time to heal, to stop a gen regressing, etc. Even the threat of finishing a gen without preemptively doing a jigsaw box is diminished... you may even spend 10 seconds to finish a gen even while your head is going, because you're now afforded the time to.
The inability to see jigsaw boxes is an annoyance, again chasing a survivor off boxes is likely using your time inefficiently, however what you can do is "spook", push them off (preferrebly withoit chase) on your way to somewhere else and buy a few extra seconds off that survivor that may severely limit their time and options later.
I'm not so sharp on this time management stuff, but I have seen Pigs who are...and its aweaome to see. The limited time can be crucially important to her pressure, by virtue of the fact if you have good internal timing, you can KNOW that if you have 1 person with an active RBT close to popping, 1 on hook, 1 slugged, that you only have 1 survivor active at this point in time that can deal with that hook.
You add 30s on that, that head trapped survivor must have really been screwing about in order for you to have anything close to that pressure... and ofc the main point is ,having this amount of pressure against strong survivors as the Pig is rare and hard earned...
Now ofc, we aren't getting nothing for this, her chase is getting better... but... she's still not gonna be strong in chase, her chase is still gonna be a little lacklustre... and it should be, she as you rightly point out still has this slowdown... but, she is losing a lot of the psychological pressure with these changes... and that psychological pressure is already not very effective against veterans.
If you disagree, I'd be intrigued to hear the argument. I accept something needs to be done about her low MMR potency, but this feels like something that just permanently relegates Pig to play in the bronze mud.
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Completely agree, I’m seeing it all over Reddit. it’s crazy how the “nerf” is apparently a “massive nerf” like you said it’s literally not even a nerf to regular pig players. It is however a massive nerf to pig players who force head pops and tunneling by patrolling the boxes aka Toxic Pigs
So the people who are mad that pig is getting nerfed are the toxic killers who can’t torture survivors as easily anymore or pig players who don’t know what their talking about
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I received word about the new changes through a series of highly encrypted messages sent by @AbsolutGrndZer0. I'll paste my response here as well. These are my initial lunch break thoughts after going through the notes the first time.
The Pig
In a (truly) shocking turn of events, we have decided to buff (here we go) The Pig (Run far far away and hide Amanda). More specifically, we have made improvements to both The Pig’s Ambush and Crouch abilities (Good so far). The goal with these changes is to make her Ambush and stealth abilities more useful and make her less reliant on her Reverse Bear Traps (-Karma, [Insert Fallout "everyone disliked that"]) (Ngl starting to get me a little worried).
Ambush:
- Increased Ambush duration to 2.3 seconds (was 2 seconds) (Okay, I wanted to see it longer, more in line with SnD, so I can get behind the slight number bump)
- Decreased Ambush successful attack cooldown to 2.7 seconds (was 3 seconds) (Nothing too game, breaking. Definitely on the safe side for an initial change)
- Decreased Ambush missed attack cooldown to 1.5 seconds (was 2 seconds) (I like this change, I was going to be harder on the values, but honestly it's a decent start)
Crouch:
- Increased crouched movement speed to 3.8m/s (was 3.6m/s) (So, less than JMFs value, but we'll have to see how JMF gets changed)
- Decreased time taken to crouch to 1 second (was 1.3 seconds) (This is a good change)
Reverse Bear Traps:
- The Pig can no longer see the auras of Jigsaw Boxes (This one's a tough one to take on the chin for me; Auras in this game are very useful)
- Reverse Bear Traps now have a base timer of 3 minutes (was 2.5 minutes) (Will have to see how this change interacts with some of her add-ons. I hesitate to classify this as more second-chance opportunities making their way into the game, but an extra 30 seconds will certainly make the difference between getting a kill and not on Piggy. I think we've all had a game where it really comes down to those precious seconds on RBT's timer. Not a big fan of this change overall just because a lot can happen in those extra 30 seconds. Will Gears be more sought after to combat this?)
Some of these changes make me a little nervous, but It sounds like she'll get through these changes alright for the most part. A lot of this is what the community has been asking for, which has made some add-ons redundant (which devs have acknowledged in their notes), and in need of probably more than just a numbers change looking down the line. The aura change and the increase in RBT timer i'm not a big fan of off as of now. That being said, there are a lot of good changes, and safe-by-the-numbers changes, mixed in here with the bad (IMO). It'll be interesting to see if they'll only adjust the numbers on her add-ons or if she'll have an add-on rework in the future.
I'm also kinda glad they didn't mess with her grunts and squeals in the process of tweaking Ambush.
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There are honestly 2 thoughts I have for this change and I'm not sure where they intersect so maybe someone can help fill in the gaps along the way if I get it started. Instead of giving her something overwhelmingly positive and meaningful (i.e. Billy's recent changes), what she got almost feels underserved and half-baked. It's like they gave her the recent Sadako change which was more aimed at promoting one style of play (the one everyone likes chase-oriented).
So, are they limiting killer playstyles and abilities with a purpose (like the ones that make people big upset; instant-kill abilities). Are instant-kill abilities coming under fire from the dev team? Does this show they have the intent to shift away from those types of abilities in favor of more chase? Should PH and Tombstone Myers be on some sort of watchlist?
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They can't really call these changes a "buff". It's more like a "rework". Seeing as pig wasn't in a good spot to begin with, the nerf to her RBT power was completely unnecessary.
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I agree. current rbt are so strong that even when you aren't looking to head-pop, you still get head-pops.
I can use same excuse as you told me. Pig will be more healthy character.
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With Sadako, i had reasons to say that. You do not.
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I'm not a Pig player, I'm just here for some boops.
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They had no reason to nerf her and here we are. Please behavior this was unnecessary.
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They genuinely seem to have no idea how to balance a power that has lethality.
Every patch, Sadako goes from Condemn-killing survivors before they've even been hooked once, to not getting a single condemn-kill, to only getting condemn kills when they're already dead on hook which is pointless.
With RBTs, survivors now have 20% longer to get them off, AND the Pig won't be pressuring them while they do so. They have ZERO lethality any more. Except, ironically, by using the disgusting scream build which was the problem that probably got her traps nerfed in the first place, and wasn't touched at all.
You know the change Pig traps needed to be fair? Screaming doesn't interrupt searching. There. RBT problems solved.
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Why is it that smart killer gameplay is considered harassment or scummy? The killer always wants the exact opposite of what survivors want. If they want to be left alone when taking care of the RBT, then it's only natural for the killer to pressure them away from the boxes. A killer has just much a right to play around their power as a survivors has as long as it doesn't involve exploits. And this is not an exploit.
The real value of RBTs wasn't the 144+ seconds of slowdown because they were even stronger than that. A good Pig player can make survivors stop progressing completely, if only for a brief time. That guy with an active trap has to take care of that. They don't have the time to come for an unhook, heal, search a chest, get chased away from traps and still get the trap off, if they have 4 searches. This will no longer be the case. 30 seconds more time is enough to take any kill pressure away. Meaning, they have no reason not to participate in normal gameplay during that time. It's worse when you consider that the Pig can no longer play around their power either. It's still a 1v4 even with an active trap in play. I don't know how that doesn't make her slowdown mechanic weaker.
There is no nerf here... unless you're a Pig who harrasses a trapped survivor to force a head pop.
In other words: Just don't use her power to its max potential. What about Pinhead's box, would it be a nerf, if he couldn't pick it up himself anymore? Surely not. It's only a nerf, if you do that. Or Sadako's codemned moris, would it be a nerf if you couldn't kill survivors with it but it would give you simple slowdown instead? Only if you used it to get kills. Pig needs to do even more to get this kind of pressure. She first needs a down. As a M1 killer with only a mediocre chase power.
Good killer gameplay is using literally everything in your power to build pressure. So you could also say: It's not a nerf, if you play bad. But if you play bad, then you should lose the match. This argument is a complete slippery slope.
There is a difference between tunneling one survivor and giving them so many side objectives that they simply cannot do them all. You don't need to tunnel to get head pops. Strategic gameplay can be enough. If the trapped survivor has a million different things to do all at once, then they get dangerously close to dying. Now push them away from the boxes once or twice and they die. Pig is too weak in chase to win all of her games by hooks. No matter how good the Pig player is, they are still limited by her mechanics. They can't fly, no matter how good they play and they can't use their ambush around connected loops because survivors simply leave.
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Well said!
Either make survivor screaming not interrupt searching or if they truly need to nerf her RBT´s, then make it, that a survivor cannot die to the timer running out while searching a box.
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I'm the only one who are a little worried about the change for Amanda?
The buff for his ambush is cool, really, crounching faster is also good ... But why touching the reverse trap?
The main power for her is the pressure from these, when they are activated , it help a lot and slow the game for the killer, making 3 whole minute instead of 2.5 ? On the paper, it doesn't seems a lot, but it his.. Maybe I'm to soon worried about that, but again, she lost something
I'm thinking about that but, why she can't recover her trap? Or making these active immediatly when all gen are done?
edit: I got moved here, it seems that I'm not the only one worried
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Maybe BHVR can give us a constand sad sobbing noice when she is in stealth, to subtly warn survivors of an imminent ambush. It would combo beautifully with her cute stun noises.
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🔥🐽🔥
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This is a strong response. It does make sense to wait to see what the add-on changes will be. For my take on add-ons:
John's Medical File/Combat Straps
I'm hope JMF and Combat Straps aren't just halved to compensate for being partially basekit, as that makes them... pretty hard to justify for both add-on slots. If they get a little bit extra... we might be cookin'...
Amanda's Secret
Downsode is now obviously partially basekit... I hope in the add-on pass they do something about Amanda's Secret... to this day I can't see why you'd want to use up an addon slot for a Notification and 6s aura read 4 times per game... like I'd still consider it niche with a 20s aura... the only value I can ever see it having is maybe in end game? Does any more experienced Pig player know the value of this that I'm missing?
Jigsaw's Annotated Plan
This need a significant relook, cause its now trash. The +10s is basically "who cares anyway?" territory on top of 30s added basekit... and now losing 10s every gen that pops is even more "who cares anyway?". It was already pretty niche and hard to get value from, as I need 2 gens to pop just to break even, and so it needed other add-ons to support it... but now I need 3 gens to pop just to remove the basekit increase... 4 to even start getting value on this effect. The 1 extra headtrap is literally the only worth it has.... and the problem with extra head traps is they all need to be applied before a gen pops, which can be hard to do, and will be harder now survivors will be committing more to finishing gens with the extra 30s they get to play with.
I'm losing a gen for the value of this thing, and I already lost one just to turn it on, so thats 2 gens typically for any value... You could ditch the 10s penalty AND give a 20s time reduction... and it's STILL weaker than its current incarnation... required a total of 3 gens to pop just to reach the same equivalent value.
I imagien this wpuld need a total rework if we're wanting to nerf bat RBTs into oblivion. Even a 30s drop with no penalty only brings it back to the same value this was before... but that might be ok, to at least be a sudden shock and surprise for a survivor to see a big chunk of their time to just disappear, that might claw back a little head trap fear... and if 2 gens get done while headtrapped, then suddenly this is scary... but I doubt we'll see that.
Tampered Timer
This was always one of her nastier add-ons, and tbh, if you wanna remove her head traps potency, just hitting this add-on does a lot by itself...
However if we're going through with this change to give 30s base, and lose our box auras... this add-on might be fine for taking RBTs back somewhat to the level they were before. Workshop Grease and Tampered Timer seems it might be a somewhat effective Pig+ build compared to old Pig... but its questionable whether you would ever consider this add-on now. It seems better to just give up on trying to make RBTs scary and just use them as purely a fire and forget slowdown.
This add-on might be worth just ignoring completely or being reworked to something more interesting... like every "Good" skillcheck reduces the timer by 4 seconds, while a great gains you 4 seconds. You typically get 3 skillchecks per box, so even a 4 box headtrap with a full set of goods would lose you 36s... which is less that what this add-on did before.... but again, we won't see anything like this, in case of Piggy trying to interrupt, and we don't want any of that.
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JMF and CS dont need hard nerfs, if the changes they propose are like they are. She will still have no real counter to pre dropping. Leaving the loop is still a great option.
Amandas secret might just be her worst addon. Its so awful in design. The Pig nerfs herself by removing box auras to see auras of survivors that remove the traps. First: you as the Pig want to have the traps remain on the survivors head. They can give you kills. THIS IS WHAT THE GAME REWARDS YOU FOR WITH MMR. The aura reding is completely useless. You either have the survivor remove the trap in your face, in that case, the survivor is right in front of you, so no aura needed, or they remove the trap cross map, while you as Piggy are busy doing other stuff. in that case, the informaiton provided is also completely redundant. This is a purple addon, mind you, that competes with tempered timer, crate of gears and jigsaw sketch in the same rarity. Its bad. really bad.
I completely agree with the annotated plan. This addon just got horrible.
I also agree with the timer. Hitting this addon and crate of gears alone will hurt Pigs that play in a rather nasty way. The nerfs make this addon fine, maybe. But in combination with crate fo gears, it will again become really strong. RBT´s should be lethal. Not too lethal, but lethal enough to encourage smart decisions.
A survivor has 3 minutes.
Thats:
- 180 seconds for ONE SEARCH
- 90 seconds for TWO SEARCHES
- 60 seconds for THREE SEARCHES
- 45 seconds for FOUR SEARCHES
(including the time to search and walk around the map.) That is not threatening. Not even with interruptions and harassment.
I really hope this is considered.
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From onryo to pig huh? Its unfortunate. Hopefully they make considerable changes to make her traps be decent slowdown again and buff her ambush a good bit more to make her better in chase. Because they missed the ball on the traps imo and only nudged her in the chase direction. Always here to support the cause.
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Best form of nerf to RBT:
- survivors cannot die to the timer running out while searching a jigsaw box
- survivors are not interrupted by screaming while searching a jigsaw box
Nothing more is needed. These nerfs would be in line with the buffs she is getting. The nerfs proposed in the notes are overkill.
If BHVR wants me to stop playing, they are currently pushing the right buttons.
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If you want to keep the 3 mins, pls make boxes aura unavailable for survivor until activation and make unhook activate traps
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As a former Pig main (I still play her from time to time), I can tell you that actually with combat strap + last will I manage to get some decent hits.
About the "hold W" strat from survivor, it is your role as a killer to herd the survivor in a isolated spot and use your M2 wisely.
About traps, I saw the deadliness nerf came from miles away, since Pig can harass/take hostage survivors around boxes. I don't mind this nerf or the BT biggest timer. She is a better chaser overall.
However in compensation, they should have set the minimum search number to remove a bear trap to 2.
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I don't understand why they nerf her trap while it is nearly impossible to kill anyone.
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Why is it that smart killer gameplay is considered harassment or scummy?
Because the survivor cannot do anything. Their fate is sealed the moment they receive a trap with 4 searches. 2:30 is already barely enough to reach 4 boxes on some map spawns, all it takes is for the killer to be at the one you're going to once and you're guaranteed to die, potentially on first or no hooks.
This is not healthy gameplay. It's worse than tunneling. Furthermore there's a current tactic of using scream perks such as Face The Darkness and Ultimate Weapon to interrupt boxes, which has the same effect without even needing to tunnel.
Ideally, traps ahould only be able to kill when the survivor messes up. Not when the killer decides to casually interrupt one single box search.
Not only is this fair, but it's in line with the lore too. Amanda tried to fix the game in her favour and her hubris killed her, meanwhile John's games always had a guaranteed way out, providing you played by the rules.
They don't have the time to come for an unhook, heal, search a chest, get chased away from traps and still get the trap off, if they have 4 searches. This will no longer be the case. 30 seconds more time is enough to take any kill pressure away.
Absolutely false. An extra 30 seconds doesn’t give you the freedom to drop your box search relay. There is still the chance that your search is interrupted, that the killer intercepts you between boxes, and this can shave off a lot of time. 30 seconds is nowhere near enough to guarantee you tine to spare.
Just don't use her power to its max potential. What about Pinhead's box, would it be a nerf, if he couldn't pick it up himself anymore? Surely not. It's only a nerf, if you do that. Or Sadako's codemned moris, would it be a nerf if you couldn't kill survivors with it but it would give you simple slowdown instead?
Sadako has literally been nerfed and reworked multiple times to prevent her power being used purely for lethal moris. Skull Merchant has also had reworked to remove problematic tactics. Pig isn't even new to this as she was reworked to prevent her guaranteeing a head pop by camping a box. This is no different to that.
Kills have to be earned, and survivors have to have the opportunity to outplay the killer.
Using the Pig's power to it's potential, playing the optimal Pig game, is leaving a trapped survivor alone to make use of the slowdown it provides. It's the most basic form of killer arithmetic, that although can take skill and a bit of luck to fully realise, is still overlooked by many poor killers who rely on crutch perks.
One survivor is hooked, one survivor is in chase/directly pressured, one survivor has to go for the rescue + heal, that leaves one survivor on gens. You want the survivor that's left to do gens to be the one who is trapped. The optimal Pig game is ensuring that scenario occurs as you rotate survivors and work through your traps.
To say that optimal Pig games are where you get head pops by applying minimal pressure to one survivor who has no ability to do anything else but die, is like saying optimal Skull Merchant gameplay is holding gens hostage for 59 minutes. It might be true, but it's scummy.
I play Pig a lot, I always ignore the trapped survivor. I want to get all the slowdown potential out of that trap, and I don't want them to die to a trap on their first hook. I want them to eventually get their trap off? so that I can catch them and hook them again, I want as many hooks as I can get.
Despite this, I still get games where survivors die to traps. Sometimes without any interaction with me at all, sometimes because I accidentally crossed paths with them and delay their searches. You know what usually happens in these cases? A DC, or they give up. There's nothing satisfying in shooting fish in a barrel.
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"30 seconds longer on traps now makes head pops almost impossible".
That's the point, less cheesy head pops, RBT as a slow down tool "only" (like Sadako).
However they should set the minimum search number to 2. One search to get rid of a RBT is ridiculous.
I use the add-on last will, sometimes when the survivor try to leave the loop a bit too late I catch up with the extra 6%. Also around "mediocre loop" where survivors think they can outplay me with double backs or they can reach the pallet in time, they take a hit.
This add-on is really slept on. And you don't even mention it.... Basically Amanda goes from 172,5% (6.9 m/s) to ... 182.85%.
That's a big speed with a slightly bigger reach.
Base distance with ambush dash : 13.8 meters. With Last Will add-on : 14.6 m.
New buff : basekit 15.87 meters !
With Last will : 16.8 meters covered at about 183 % movement speed !
You're not gonna conviced me this is not significant.
3 more meters basekit lol. That's a big deal. See you in the PTB for the feedbacks.
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However they should set the minimum search number to 2. One search to get rid of a RBT is ridiculous.
We already have a minimum search of 12 between all traps. If one gets theirs off in 1 search, that means at least two others have to make 4 searches.
A 1 search trap is the best thing ypu can get if you want the chance of a head pop. Guaranteeing 2 at a minimum makes the 4 search traps less likely.
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Did i say that the buffs are bad? No. They are amazing. They are just not enough to warrant these nerfs.
Im gonna repeat what i already said: the Traps are a kill mechanic. If theior sole purpose was slowdown, they could simply change their effect to this: while wearing a RBT, the survivor cannot interact with a generator. This is not the case. The traps kill. They should remain that way. This encourages decisionmaking. Its the Pigs MAIN part of her power. The nerfs are just too much.
Im all for nerfing the traps to compensate for buffs to her chase. My proposal:
Best form of nerf to RBT:
- survivors cannot die to the timer running out while searching a jigsaw box
- survivors are not interrupted by screaming while searching a jigsaw box
Nothing more is needed. These nerfs would be in line with the buffs she is getting. The nerfs proposed in the notes are overkill.
I just wanna add, that i have 2200h+ on Pig and have perfected the moondash. I go for ambush all the time and have combat straps and medical file autolocked. Pig is the sole reason i still play DBD. I know this character in and out.
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Then they can change it to 14 searches for all survivors accordingly.
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I play Pig optimally. However, i also memorize survivor locaitons and movement as well as the rng i have. If i can play around my traps, i will. Thats why they are there. I spread my traps and if i have a 4 search, i pressure at the correct time to maybe get a head pop. I dont focus on that one survivor all game. I focus on them, when the time is right.
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Traps are not only a kill mechanic. Kill should be the cherry on the top.
The main purpose is not to remove head pops completely, it is to make it very hard to occur. Like Sadako, you can condemn but you have to work hard for it. The main purpose is too slow down the game, even if it is a death threat. It has to be for teh survivor to prioritize it. I know pinhead have a non lethal slowdown.
And let's be honest harassing survivors around boxes is too easy. One down at a box for a survivor can lead to a certain head pop sometimes, even with "chase oriented" add-ons. That's why she has a nice kill rate. It's not even skillful.
Now at least if you want to harass survivors at boxes, you have to bring a specific add-ons set to decrease to time available for survivors AND monitor survivors movement accross the map to know where to go, not following the auras.
I agree RBTs should have more slow downs to compensate the timer buff however. Longer search time or a number of minimum search set to 2 with 14 searches across all survivors
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I don't mind the changes to Ambush much, but I find it distasteful that it's becoming just another in-chase Power. Very same-old-same-old.
Not going to complain about the crouch QoL.
But I don't like losing the Box Aura's. It's nice being able to incorporate them into patrols in the moment if you notice UI changes and/or get a feeling for where a RBT'ed Survivor might have gone while you've been elsewhere.
That may be scummy, but it's nice leveraging intuition and map knowledge for an easier down. Though I wish that RBTs weren't literally required to be placed on survivors that have just been focused already.
And it's not like a lack of Aura's will stop Pigs that follow RBT'ed survivors.
I don't care for Headpops as a result of running the timer down. The 3min isn't much of a concern for me. If people want headpops they can rally for a mini-mori of some sort, tampering is Amanda's thing after all.
Screaming interrupting Search needs to go. I don't know why it hasn't yet given it's contradictory with their "Perks don't impact Powers" philosophy.
Post edited by AssortedSorting on0 -
I play Pig a lot, I always ignore the trapped survivor. I want to get all the slowdown potential out of that trap, and I don't want them to die to a trap on their first hook. I want them to eventually get their trap off? so that I can catch them and hook them again, I want as many hooks as I can get.
Despite this, I still get games where survivors die to traps. Sometimes without any interaction with me at all, sometimes because I accidentally crossed paths with them and delay their searches. You know what usually happens in these cases? A DC, or they give up. There's nothing satisfying in shooting fish in a barrel.
You do? I mean I know both of our evidence is anecdotal... so it's something we'd have to just accept is true from each other... but I find it hard to believe, because I have nowhere near your hours, and I imagine I go up against weaker survivors than yourself...
I've had maybe 2 instances I can think of where a survivor got killed without my intervention unless I was taking some really nasty add-ons (and even then, cause I don't tend to pressure survivors on boxes its rare)... I actually have both recorded on my PS5, one as a trophy, one because it blew my mind that it happened.... The first one was literally my second game as Pig, and the bambi survivor walked out the gate and the bear trap popped... I didn't even understand at the time what happened. The second one I was literally walking around Garden of Joy crouched.. so I know how much of a Bambi I was....
Now I know I didn't have many head pops, because when I went for the 15 kills trophy, I was playing mostly Pig, and at the time I had 7 executions (and I never took moris, and of the killers I played didn't have executes wiuth the exception of Myers, who I also didn't take the add-ons for), and I liked the idea of going for that trophy, with purely head pops... needless to say after 2 months of not getting much progress, even if I was taking nasty add-ons, I gave up and just took a mori... OFC Pig mori is what I got for my trophy video...
All of this is to say, unless you pressure boxes, even the bambiest of survivors almost never dies... so with my assumption you are far better than me... how on earth does anyone ever die if you're running non RBT add-ons against good survivors without pressuring them? Like I barely saw it happen as a newbie... 🤔
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Because the survivor cannot do anything. Their fate is sealed the moment they receive a trap with 4 searches. 2:30 is already barely enough to reach 4 boxes on some map spawns, all it takes is for the killer to be at the one you're going to once and you're guaranteed to die, potentially on first or no hooks.
You have 2:30 minutes to get around the map and do the searches. That's 150 seconds. Each search takes 12 seconds, so that's 102 seconds for you to traverse the map. At the very worst! This would already mean, that you cannot do a single search before your trap is activated. During these 102 seconds you make 408 metres of distance. Let's be generous and take 10% of that for avoiding the killer.
That's still 359.2 metres. On what map, do you not get the 4 searches now? You have more than enough time to do so. If the Pig player interrupts you, that is smart gameplay. If they are tunneling you, then the RBT doesn't do anything! So they instead need to push you away when it's convenient for them (which is incompatible with tunneling, because it would take up too much time) or give you other objectives that you have to do as well. Which is achieved by putting pressure on the rest of the team. Now interrupt them once or twice and you can get a kill. But this already means that you exceptionally well, so you should be rewarded for it.
This is not healthy gameplay. It's worse than tunneling. Furthermore there's a current tactic of using scream perks such as Face The Darkness and Ultimate Weapon to interrupt boxes, which has the same effect without even needing to tunnel.
And why aren't we fixing that issue then? This is still possible. Not only that but it will become the go to way to make her traps work. So they only made this situation even worse. If that is what we want to fix, I'm fine with that. But instead of 30 seconds more and no more auras, why don't we simply change it so survivors will not be interrupted by screams? That would be a way healthier change and it wouldn't nerf her outside of that scenario.
Not only is this fair, but it's in line with the lore too. Amanda tried to fix the game in her favour and her hubris killed her, meanwhile John's games always had a guaranteed way out, providing you played by the rules.
You contradicted yourself here. Amanda rigs games in her favor. This was lore accurate. I rest my case.
Absolutely false. An extra 30 seconds doesn’t give you the freedom to drop your box search relay. There is still the chance that your search is interrupted, that the killer intercepts you between boxes, and this can shave off a lot of time. 30 seconds is nowhere near enough to guarantee you tine to spare.
2:30 minutes is already enough to do all 4 searches and do a side objective even in the worst case scenario. 30 seconds + the removal of the boxes' auras, which prevents the Pig player from interrupting you effectively, gives you so much more time that the traps completely lose their lethality. You can go for an extra unhook, heal up / do a totem or chest and still get the trap off with no issues. This is stupid.
Sadako has literally been nerfed and reworked multiple times to prevent her power being used purely for lethal moris. Skull Merchant has also had reworked to remove problematic tactics. Pig isn't even new to this as she was reworked to prevent her guaranteeing a head pop by camping a box. This is no different to that.
That is wrong. Sadako was changed so she wouldn't rely on moris alone and slug every survivor she downed. The amount of condemned she applies now is higher than before her first rework and arguable higher than her second rework as well but she also has an incentive to hook you now.
The Pig rework that prevented her from camping a box is not even remotely similar to this. One was a guaranteed kill due to rng with no gameplay involved. That was unhealthy, no questions. But even now you have the time to get rid of the trap with little to no trouble as long as you aren't forced to side objectives. In which case, that only speaks for the killer playing very well. If they manage to keep the rest of your team busy, then your team overall plays worse than she does. So you should lose as a team and in that situation it starts with you. Unlucky but fair.
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I had a thought about the RBT timers.
Could the extra 30 seconds be, at least in part, a response to the Pig's reworked RNG? I don't know how common it is now for a Survivor to have to search 4 boxes, but it's probably more common than it was compared to back when it was mainly a guessing game of finding the right box.
But drawing a 4 box search on a map like Red Forest or Ormond could be a death sentence depending on where the boxes are on the map. The extra 30 seconds might indeed make the difference between "objectively doomed" or having a chance to survive.
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I find the posts amusing. Pig is consistently called one of the worst killers in the game (not by me, mind you).
Now i see many people claiming, that its so simple to get kills. What is it now? Is she too strong or too weak?
Enjoy watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z06a3UullRk
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The thing is, even on League of Legends, people play more then 500 ranked games per year since like 5 seasons the same champion (more than 3k hours), and are still hard stuck Silver. Why ? Because they don't want to adopt another play style or refuse to reconsider the way they use their champion.
I mean it sounds like an argument from authority logic saying "I'm 2.2 k hours Pig main and I live for her and I mastered the dash perfectly".
For a Pig dash expert, I'm surprised you never mentionned the speed of the Dash or even the ambush reach, basekit or new feature. Especially through your messages, it seems like you underestimate this buff.
It seems like your strat revolves around head pops mostly. That's why you are reacting so hard to the nerfing part IMO.
New pig insights : If you use chase add-ons, you shouldn't get an easy head pop just with one interruption. If you use "head pop" add-ons, then you sacrifice a bit of your chase potential, but basekit your chase potential is ok-ish.
I think this is the purpose of BHVR, even if I hate the fact that a survivor can still remove a RBT in one search. This is a waste of a RBT. 14 searches, 2 to 4 searches per survivor should be the way to go.
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Again, enjoy watching : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z06a3UullRk
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But red forest got a lot smaller. Ormond is a huge map, maybe to big. Thats a discussion for a different time. Should the power be laughable on small maps to compensate for a select few big ones? Not really, if you ask me.
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At the same time, how likely are you to get a head pop on a small map with the current timer, unless you're actively going out of your way to do so?
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Given Perks are not supposed to interact with Killer Powers, yes, using things like Perks that cause a Survivor to Scream, interrupting and resetting a Jigsaw Box search is technically a bug, an exploit. Not sure why this hasn't been addressed yet.
RBT's are designed to provide slowdown, with the threat of lethality as a reason to do the Boxes, with Pig leveraging that slowdown to allow time for her stealth to allow early hits and to brute force tough loops to get downs.
Bypassing the need for chases and stealth through forcing a headpop by simply interrupting that survivor once or twice is smart, but not engaging for the Survivor who now skips hooks and chases that would have otherwise been engaging.
That's not good design.
I do want to point out though that I'm not against Pig players interrupting Survivors searching Jigsaw boxes, so long as it leads to chases that can also be engaging, an unease of not knowing if the Pig will pop out of nowhere. And it is fun using the knowledge of the Jigsaw Box locations to modify your patrol routes based on current RBT status (I'm against the Aura suppression). However simple harassment with no commitment should not be most effective.
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Depends on the rng and how you play around it. If you have 2 traps with 4 searches, you can very much get head pops on every map right now.
You should go out of your way to get the traps to work. Its your power. You just need to play smart to not waste too much time doing it. Pinhead should also play around his box. Same does Sadako. Pig should be able to do so as well.
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I agree, but then are not these interruptions targeted?
The best nerfs in my opinion are these:
- survivors cannot die to the timer running out while searching a jigsaw box
- survivors are not interrupted by screaming while searching a jigsaw box
This adresses the short interrupting. The Pig has to commit. Screaming also would not work. The 30 seconds more are not necessary and just give the survivors more room for mistakes. These mistakes, by the way, only come into play when the box takes 4 searches. Even 3 are usually not a threat.
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Correction: It's one-third of her power, and the other two thirds are getting buffed.
Head pops are a bonus, not a goal. It's why I don't view the RBT timer change as that big an issue. Especially in light of my original point that it's possibly intended to compensate for exactly the issue you described of getting stuck on a 4 box search.
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But its a part of her kit nonetheless. If the sole purpose of the traps where slowdown, then why is their effect not this: a survivor wearing a reverse bear trap cannot interact with a generator. It can kill. It should stay able to kill. If even the most troublesome rng of the searches is not threatening, then this part of the power is overall not a threat.
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