Are the devs serious?

Options
124

Comments

  • woundcowboy
    woundcowboy Member Posts: 1,994
    Options

    You definitely get more distance than you used to. Not sure if it’s worth doing the dash over standing up tho.

  • Alice_pbg
    Alice_pbg Member Posts: 6,544
    Options

    1 second to crouch. 3.8 m/s

    0.75 seconds to charge ambush. Fully stopped

    2.35 seconds ambushing.

    Ambush is 6.9 m/s. Not constant but I'll simplify.


    So in 4.1 seconds you cover, 3.8 + 0 + 2.35*6.9 = 20 meters give or take.


    4.1 seconds just running = 4.6*4.1 = 18.86 meters.

    Add a lunge which is also 6.9 m/s and pretty sure you gain nothing from crouching and ambushing.

  • LordGlint
    LordGlint Member Posts: 7,986
    Options
  • PigMainBigBrain
    PigMainBigBrain Member Posts: 1,893
    Options

    Literally nobody camps people on boxes with head traps except trolls. The timer stops when you do that and at the point you have them cornered like that assuming survivors haven't 99%'d all the gens by that time you could have just hooked them and stopped messing around.

    All this did was make her lunge better....which really didn't need it and made the actual head pops impossible to get unless the survivor just stands there AFK. Which isn't as fun. At this point with all the box nerfs they may as well remove it because it doesn't do anything but act as a set piece decoration. Which is....pretty boring ngl. No threat to it. I go back to sleep now.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,113
    Options

    What on earth are you talking about?

    The entire reason the timer nerf doesn't matter is because it doesn't affect the main point of value of Pig's RBTs. Thirty extra seconds on the timer just gives more time for survivors to be off generators and searching boxes, it isn't so much of a nerf that they can safely ignore traps or anything.

    As I said in the post you quoted. Pig's stealth/chase got slightly better, the main value of her traps doesn't change, and some slight edge cases were shored up in a way that shouldn't matter too much in most games. You'll forgive me for not being too upset about this outcome.

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,424
    Options

    I understand your frustrations but here's the deal.

    I know dbd is full of horror fanatics but that is irrelevant to balance in every possible way. The age old "make the killer feel like an unstoppable force" bit is so ignorant and a terrible argument if it can be called that. That example is more extreme but it's the same with pig traps actually killing survivors who are diligently trying to remove the traps.

    The add-ons I wouldn't know about and that does suck but it's better long term.

    You get a better chase power that actually is impactful in any way, if the pig player knows what they are doing they have way more opportunity to get a hit out of it instead of a survivor just wing away for free.

    You still retain the same amount of slow down, you actual chase power gets in increase in power level of about 25% and you can't preform a cheese play style that only worked on survivors who didn't preform well.

    If you remove the fact that you like saw, this is only a w for you. It's like if a wesker main complained about a person going back to 0 infection off hook instead of half, your still getting the slowdown the mechanic is intended for you just can't randomly cheese one or two people.

    Pig players might like the head pops but survivors like actually getting chased instead of a the killer crouching behind them interrupting them on a box until they die, it's literally the only redeeming quality of survivor besides being able to play with friends.

    What's the point in commenting if you not going to explicate, people seem to do that A ton on this forum.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,386
    edited February 21
    Options

    It's all good, I don't have access to the PTB so I rely on others for footage and information.

    I think you're right, there is a bit of a miscommunication going on, but I get the feeling we may have to agree to a handshake on it in the end.

    I understand the point you're making, that survivors aren't on gens, and having a longer timer means survivors spend more time doing other things, instead of clearing boxes, so that is even more time off gens, but time without pressure is worthless.

    My main point of contention that I can't get past with this change is, OK fine, they take our auras and want us not to harass for head pops. The problem I now have is... why would I ever bother interrupting a survivor on a box at all?

    I don't tunnel survivors or camp boxes, but I understand that a well timed interupt if I'm paying attention to the number of boxes searched can apply a lot of pressure... as even just the 1 interrupt can put a survivor on a significant time crunch.

    By adding 30s to the timer, I can't stall out their Timer for a head pop at all (which is the intention of this change)... if they're dealing with a trap though, they aren't on a gen... so if its not possible for me to get somewhat close to a head pop, why would I harass this survivor at all? It isn't gonna lead to any questions about whether they have time to heal, come for an unhook, or stop a gen regressing, because they have plenty of time to do so.... so me interrupting a survivor on a box is a complete waste of my time in this 4vs1 game if the possibility of popping a head is non-existent.

    I don't have so much concern now that I've seen that her add-ons made partially basekit haven't been nerfed as much as I thought they were gonna be (JMF is really nice). So she is not totally dead in water as a killer... but... I genuinely can't see how anyone can think that Pig is somehow a stronger killer by making the threat of her Pig boxes so low... the breakpoints on a survivors time got so much longer, that survivors can now be pretty casual about her boxes.

    Noone has ever said Pig was a strong killer, but she was a noob stomper. This change does nerf bat low level Pigs quite well against low level players... same as Onryō... but against high level players, she hasn't gained enough to really level the playing field, and has lost the ability to cramp a high skilled survivors time enough with the threat they might get caught at box 4. It was already risking/sacrificing a lot to get pressure against high level survivors by interrupting boxes... now its basically slam dunking the game into the trash to even try.

    Maybe that's what everyone wants? To me I see Pigs slowdown more of a mindgame in of itself, one where the time spent harassing boxes isn't the most efficient use of your time, but the idea you MIGHT do it, can create a subtle pressure on survivors to take less optimal choices. That less optimal choice might make the difference killing a player 30s sooner than you otherwise would have, which can totally turn a game.

    Just like Trapper, when a long term plan pays off, e.g. catching a survivor who got their head trap off in the nick of time, but didn't heal in order to do so, is satisfying to the point that it offsets the fact your aren't a top tier killer. 1 game where this works can offset 4 games of eating pallets and getting harassed constantly. Now her slowdown has been made binary and dumb, where you simply just ignore survivors with head traps. Always. It's totally pointless to interact with them at all.

    Post edited by UndeddJester on
  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,543
    Options

    With how people keep coming up with new definitions of anything, we're going to say yeah it's lost meaning.

  • GeneralSkien
    GeneralSkien Member Posts: 118
    Options

    I’ve been playing the PTB for a while and I have a few thoughts.

    the dash is better! Way better but not good enough still. I think a main problem is the roar, it telegraphs your attack TOO well. Additionally I feel pig is too reliant on the last will + Workshop Grease combo still. I think a base kit increase to speed and ambush charge speed, WITHOUT touching those add-ons.


    for the RBTs….

    they feel eh, they get the same slowdown but I feel like I have less control, and survivors are just ignoring it till it’s inconvenient. I feel like a gameplay, and lore wise change to add to make the RBTs more deadly while still having player interaction is to have the RBT timer speed up while doing gens, or altruistic actions. It would make sense lore wise, and design wise. It would make the RBTs apply even more pressure than before, while not being oppressive.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,113
    Options

    It's a bit silly to assume everyone who disagrees with you doesn't play the killer being discussed.

    The arguments in favour of this being a massive direct nerf to her main value are shaky and unconvincing regardless of who they come from, too. Hourcount doesn't guarantee that you know what you're talking about in general.

  • Nebula
    Nebula Member Posts: 1,394
    Options

    I worded that poorly, so for that I'm sorry. I don't doubt that you or others play Pig, but my point was more so that there are multiple people on this thread and others with thousands of hours solely in Pig and I think it's a little silly to be telling them that they're overreacting when they have way more experience with her than anybody else. I've seen this happen with dozens of trapper players as well.

    And I'd disagree with hour count not equating to knowing what you're talking about. If you have thousands of hours on a weaker, niche killer I'd say you have way more of an understanding of her and her power than someone that just plays her rotationally or plays against her. This argument kind of reads to me like a your local dad trying to diagnose you because he thinks he knows as much as the doctor does. I understand your argument about the traps not being meant to kill anyone but when you have all the mains telling you that this is a harder nerf to her than the ambush changes were a buff, I think it's silly to argue that.

  • Nun_So_Vile
    Nun_So_Vile Member Posts: 2,086
    edited February 21
    Options

    Agreed. Same with the words "healthy change". Relegated to being only simple buzzwords molded to fit any narrative.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,113
    edited February 21
    Options

    You're still assuming two things, though.

    You're assuming that everyone who disagrees with you isn't someone with comparable hours on Pig, and you're assuming that having a high hourcount means you understand game design inherently and unavoidably better than someone with less hours.

    For the first, it's just an assumption without basis. For the second, it's forgetting that skill at playing a video game and skill at analysing a video game are different skillsets. There's overlap, but not every commentator/analyst is a top-level player of the game they're associated with for that reason.

    Don't get blinded by seeing a big number in an area that's only mostly related. Pay attention to the arguments themselves and how much they hold water.

    EDIT: forgot to mention that people who otherwise know what they're talking about are 100% capable of overreacting in the moment, too.

  • GeneralSkien
    GeneralSkien Member Posts: 118
    Options

    I feel like there should be an honest survivor’s perspective. I have said something’s that are based on the idea that the extra 30 seconds and inability to pressure boxes will be hard but, will it? I’ve played PTB pig and I believe the dash changes are good, but still not enough.

    I feel like a survivor’s perspective on how the pig changes are could help people get a better understanding of they are drastic or not.

  • Nebula
    Nebula Member Posts: 1,394
    Options

    I see your points but I still have contention with them.

    1. I'm not assuming that everyone who disagrees with me doesnt have comparable hours to me on Pig. I'm assuming that the players that have mained her for years and have solely dedicated hours and hours to learning and playing her have a better understanding of her than your average DbD player. I also have my own opinions on this change and agree with the Pig mains that this is entirely unnecessary.
    2. I totally get that, but if you're going to argue that the commentator that's not on top-player level has a higher degree of knowledge than the actual top-level player than we just disagree.
    3. I think your whole point in this debate has centered around the point you seem to make about pigs traps not being meant to kill survivors, and I think that this is completely subjective and just outright not true. As Undead Jester pointed out, if the traps weren't meant to have lethality than why are over half her add-ons trap lethality based?
    4. Why in the world does Pig deserve to be nerfed on any level and not outright buffed when killers like Huntress in the very same patch are receiving outright buffs, no nerfs? She's stronger, played more, and outlines a balance design issue with the developers.
  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,113
    Options

    1: Slight correction: It's not that you're assuming they don't have comparable hours to you, it's that you're assuming only the people who outright say they have hundreds/thousands of hours are that dedicated. You don't know anyone's hourcount, the people you disagree with could have comparable hours to those other players you're seeing talk. Apologies if the italics seem aggressive, they're just for emphasis.

    2: That's not the argument, I'm just pointing out that those commentators have comparable knowledge to the actual top tier players. The ability to execute on the knowledge isn't a requirement to have the knowledge to begin with. The people who can physically perform the action don't have knowledge the people can't are incapable of getting. You can have a comparable understanding to a top tier player without being required to perform at that level personally. Mechanical skill and analytical skill are different skillsets.

    3: That is how she's designed, yeah. As I said to my esteemed fellow Jester, those addons are both not particularly well designed and, separately, more geared towards increasing the slowdown you get from survivors being pushed towards boxes and you pushing them away. The actual "goal" of the timer reaching zero isn't meant to happen unless the survivors mess up, that's why some of the listed addons have been nerfed whenever they get too good at forcing it to happen reliably.

    4: Buffs and nerfs are more versatile tools than just "make thing stronger generally" and "make thing weaker generally". Huntress is getting buffs because the devs feel she's too dependant on certain addons, that much has been stated outright. Pig is getting nerfs alongside her buffs because... well, I can't say with complete confidence, but I think it's because they want forcing head-pops to be less appealing compared to the alternatives and they also want to cover for bad box spreads on certain maps where survivors may get head-popped even though they're taking the right action to prevent it and the killer isn't even really trying to stop them.

    Whether you agree with Huntress being buffed at all, there's nuance that goes beyond "This killer is weak, buff them" and "This killer is strong, nerf them". Game balance is rarely so binary. That's why a killer like Pig, who is only middling in terms of strength, could get totally fair and justified nerfs- those nerfs don't actually affect her core gameplay or design, they're not that impactful even when the killer would notice them, and they hem in some unfair edge cases with RNG. The fact that those slight and mostly-healthy nerfs come alongside noticeable and welcome buffs is good, mind you, I'm very glad they did it that way. It's just not inherently a bad thing for them to exist just because "Pig is weak (ish), ergo, she should never be nerfed in any way".

  • Nebula
    Nebula Member Posts: 1,394
    Options

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on most of your points, especially about your balance points. There is definitely way more nuance than I implied in my last post, I'm not the best at clearly conveying my thoughts sometimes.

    To the point of her trap lethality, I think we just fundamentally disagree, which is totally fine, at the end of the day it doesn't really make a difference. I just can't imagine that lethality was not intended when add-ons like Tampered Timer have been in the game for 6 years now (I know it got tweaked at one point, but left in the game regardless). That add-on is practically only for the purpose of adding more lethality to her traps, nothing else.

    I think where I'm getting frustrated with these patch notes is that seeing a killer like Huntress get basekit buffs for objectively strong add-ons that are in my mind absolutely not necessary and will add to her lethality a very considerable amount, while poor Pig is still crouch walking slower than survivors and the ambush just got basekit yellow and brown add on buffs, it doesn't really change much. Better? For sure, absolutely, but I don't think it's enough to justify touching her traps.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,113
    Options

    It's fair for us to disagree, of course, I'm always happy to drop a topic with a respectful disagreement- but if you wouldn't mind hearing me out, I do have a slight gripe with the way the Tampered Timer is invoked here.

    Even if we were to assume its only purpose is to flat increase lethality (which I'm on the fence about, there are other ways to interpret it), that doesn't necessarily mean that Pig's power is designed that way overall. It could be an addon designed to add that element to her kit where it didn't meaningfully exist before... or it could just be a flat out badly designed addon.

    Iridescent Head and Pinky Finger weren't changed for years, after all. Tombstone Piece is still in the game. Addons existing doesn't automatically mean they're healthy, well designed, or cohesive with what the power is actually supposed to do basekit.

  • Nebula
    Nebula Member Posts: 1,394
    Options

    Oh absolutely, I definitely understand you now. There are for sure a plethora of add ons that fundamentally change the way a killers played, and tampered timer could definitely fall under that category. And you got no argument from me on there being plenty of poorly designed add ons in the game 🤣

  • Sngfun
    Sngfun Member Posts: 124
    Options

    While the nerfs are healthy and incentivize pig to play to her chase, I am sure most people that play her don't play her because of her chase, they play her because of her RBTs, you know, her core power. Ambush is already nearly useless and 0.3 extra seconds of duration won't change that. I mean, do you think people play Sadako because of her chase? No.

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,424
    Options

    Regardless of how strong it is even though it got a significant buff, pig does have a chase power. Your simply wrong. If you can force survivors to play differently then it's a chase power. I've watched my pig main friend play on the ptb several times now, Almost any filler tile it's more beneficial to use power over m1. Even tiles like LT and Short walls are extremely playable using pigs power. The only major generic tile that it doesn't work at is a long wall and just BARELY. Pig can literally triple back moonrush the tile side of a short wall now. The pig is using it wrong or at the wrong place if they don't atleast have the chance to get a hit at most tiles. Pig ambush at a lot of tiles is simply a better version of blights moon rush, straight up. While that blight tech isn't the best it's still viable and pigs is better.

    Saying she doesn't have a chase power, idk skill issue. The extra distance she's got if she uses the power at the correct distance means Wing from a tile always results in a hit. She is no a tier killer, not even close but she does have a chase power.

    So that means you think she has 0 chase power? That's just not true.


    https://youtu.be/TxyABUA0G3Q

    I saw this vid in my feed before starting to reply here, I decided to watch it before posting my reply. 8:30 is the perfect example of this killer having chase power. There is not a single safe option for that adam on a relatively strong McMillan filler tile with the pallet dropped, It's actually the second past Mac filler. 13:00 is the strong Mac filler tile. BLIGHT can barely play this tile. You can point out all the misplays in this video on the survivors part but if you have any interest in discussion you would realize at least some of the plays on the survivors part are actually the best course and they still lost to ambush.

  • ArkInk
    ArkInk Member Posts: 521
    edited February 22
    Options

    I do think the aura change was necessary for the campers with scream perks that make vsing Pig extremely unfun. The timer nerf is unnecessary though, it needlessly weakens the base slowdown she's built around as a character. Headpops already weren't common, and thirty seconds is a big window.

    They either need to tune Ambush up as a power way more to compensate, or roll back the timer change entirely. I wonder if BHVR will actually let this go live with the current feedback

  • Withered8
    Withered8 Member Posts: 1,235
    Options

    It's a nerf to one specific playstyle of pig which involves tunneling and stalking a person with a trap on them. Otherwise i don't see how its not buffs for pig?

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 8,914
    Options

    I play Pig because she's the best stealth killer in the game, and Ambush is far from useless if you use it via stealth.

    Every other stealth killer has a limitation or a tell on their stealth power. Amanda can sneak right up to a survivor without any tells. You can be directly on the opposite side of the gen they're repairing and they won't know, providing you have LoS blockers.

    If you start an Ambush within about 6-8 meters of a survivor, it will hit, and with stealth you can get that close.

    I score Ambush hits all the time, maybe as many as 50% of my injuries can be due to Ambush in a decent game. I also get a decent share of Ambushes that just barely miss, so with these buffs, they'd be guaranteed hits.

    For some actual Ambush footage, Scott's new video shows it off quite well.


  • Alice_pbg
    Alice_pbg Member Posts: 6,544
    Options

    trapper has a chase power now everybody.

    just letting everyone know the standards for it are that low.

  • The_Krapper
    The_Krapper Member Posts: 3,144
    Options

    Just a thought but I'm thinking they're doing this to her traps to get a more pure kill rate reading on her and buff her accordingly from there, while head pops do happen occasionally out of bad luck they need to tone those down if they're going to buff the rest of the kit to bring her back up otherwise she would probably be a monster at tunneling I remember the days of the pig crouching behind in the distance still chasing you but allowing your timer to drop with nothing you could do to stop and if you touch the box you'd just get downed for it lol

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 1,543
    Options

    First: our comment has zero words regarding any of our thoughts on the matter.

    Second: your going to need to define chase power as like our comment said, everyone is coming up with new definitions for anything.

    Third: can be used in chase doesn't make it a chase power. This is going by our definition.

    Fourth: we will click the link only if you promise it's not another damn otz video or something. Fell for that once, not again.

  • Withered8
    Withered8 Member Posts: 1,235
    Options

    How is it a nerf to people who use their traps normally? The slowdown it provides Is completely unchanged.

    The ambush being stronger is a game changer because it makes even more loops stronger for pig and her ability to use the ambush.

  • DrDucky
    DrDucky Member Posts: 675
    Options

    The survivors have to get rid of the trap at some point, the traps are not meant to head pop, they are suppose to delay the game.

  • MechWarrior3
    MechWarrior3 Member Posts: 1,514
    Options

    I agree on this completely. It’s her traps that make her unique and fun. The other stuff is just “glamour”

  • Withered8
    Withered8 Member Posts: 1,235
    Options

    I'm sorry but its hardly a nerf most of the time. The number of pig boxes people need to search is completely UNCHANGED which means the amount of time survivors need to spend off gens running around is exactly the same. The only difference is they are less likely to die to some rng on big maps with the boxes spawning far away.

  • Withered8
    Withered8 Member Posts: 1,235
    Options

    But hang on i can predrop the pallet vs wesker and huntress and blight does that make them bad killers?

  • Alice_pbg
    Alice_pbg Member Posts: 6,544
    Options

    something being hardly a nerf, means it's a nerf. size or impact doesn't change the fact it's still a nerf. so, glad we agree that it's a nerf.


    also means the survivor is more in control of which time they use. using their downtime on boxes is vastly less useful to me as the pig than time they can't afford to lose.

    I hope I don't need to explain the concept that being forced into doing a thing is vastly different than doing it when the time is best for you...

  • woundcowboy
    woundcowboy Member Posts: 1,994
    Options

    Wesker can get hits at certain tiles that most killers can’t, plus he can force the predrop sooner. And yes, I think Huntress isn’t a viable killer, mainly due to awful map design locking her out of even being able to take shots. That’s why she is being buffed.

    Predropping is the main reason that the majority of killers aren’t viable at high level. If survivors are playing safe and doing gens, the killer can’t catch anyone in a reasonable amount of time. That’s why Nurse is the best killer: she can force a mindgame at any tile/setup.

  • Nun_So_Vile
    Nun_So_Vile Member Posts: 2,086
    edited February 23
    Options

    Any other killer with actual designed chase power can get a hit at strong tiles and against shift +w. It's so laughably bad how this is a buff... That being said, I think a fairer point is that there are specific layouts for connected tiles that even the strongest killers will struggle with regardless, if a surv knows the pathing. No, that doesn't make them bad killers per se, but the better ones will be able to overcome the obstacle easier than others with their kit.

    Post edited by Nun_So_Vile on
  • Withered8
    Withered8 Member Posts: 1,235
    Options

    Not every killer needs to be able to get a hit everysingle time at strong tiles, doing that encourages people to just hold shift w even more you realise.

    Loops are so much better for iller now than they've been in forever that most loops have considerable opportunity for outplay even for someone with pigs level of chasing ability. Plus her chase ability literally isn't meant to be her strongest asset? Her main strength lies in her insane game stalling ability and stealth.