Will Windows of Opportunity be nerfed too?
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And by that point, the generators are done and the game is over.
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How about they actually start buffing all the f, d, and c tier perks and actually make them usuable. Why would anyone seriously use something like red herring over windows or sprint burst. This cycle of “omg lets nerf the highest used perk” and then they nerf the next one after than and then the next one after that is ridiculous. There would be more variety if there were better perk to use.
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If they touch Windows of Opportunity, then the developers are trying to kill Solo Q in one of the most absurd decisions they could ever make. Saying Windows needs a nerf, shows a killer dependence on the dysfunction of Solo Q, good survivors could already chain loops. If you're a killer saying Windows needs a nerf you need to get skill actually learn to mind game and zone, please. Don't nerf one of the best Solo Q perks.
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And they wanted to shake the meta up. But I don’t remember seeing as many people complain about BBQ. You could easily avoid it by jumping in a locker, after all.
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If it's nerf, my guess it's probably going to be timed, so once a chase starts it shows for a bit before going.
Unpopular opinion, but I'd be fine if it's nerfed. I'm not fussed either way, but I'd like to see more variety in builds and meta shake ups, alongside buffing weaker perks, just makes things more interesting.
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Honestly if ulti weapon ends up getting nerfed any time soon I would say windows should be to. Both accomplish the same thing for either side, taking away the need for game sense.
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I think a short cooldown is really good for this perk
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Well judging by how many people have argued against it and defended it probably means it needs adjusted in someway. Seeing every pallet and route you can run is a massive bonus. Compare this to being swf with comms and certain perks. Obviously one gives more information but windows shows you pallets or loops you may have been blind to. Kind of breaks the map randomness aspect to be honest if you know where all pallets/windows are in all tiles.
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we had nicolas, ellen and alan, all of them have good perks, people just don´t know how to use them
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This has to be a joke. A wretched, cruel joke.
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I don't see it getting nerfed. It doesn't have a huge effect on matches and its pick rate drops significantly when you go into high MMR. It's also really easy to counter with Blindness and there are multiple ways to inflict Blindness (the easiest of which is simply opening a locker and being in the general vicinity a la UW).
It helps low and mid range survivors the most but, if they can't loop, it doesn't help them at all. It's not that strong of a perk. If it went up the higher you went in MMR they'd nerf it but for a perk that only mostly benefits newbies and mid-range I don't see it.
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I know how to use them but yet they are garbage.
Also i love how you are calling community unskilled just because they don't use those perks lol.
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plot twist is probably one of the best perks in the game, dramaturgy is decent, from ellen we have lightfooted, not strong alone but it´s a beast of a perk if you have no scratch marks, the trap is good and lucky star is decent for solo q, alan have champion of the light, literally just a better version of the trap in some aspects and you can shift tech with it
Not being the 4 best crutches in the game doesn't make the perks bad, it's like saying that artist is garbage because she's not as strong as the nurse lol
Also I love how you try to look for the worst possible interpretation of a text to try to insult me
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Please show me where i insulted you.
It was you who insulted to people just because they think those perks are bad.
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Also i love how you are calling community unskilled just because they don't use those perks lol.
inducing that I think the ´´community´´ is bad at the game and I ´´am the guy, the dude, the different one´´ (saying that i am arrogant)
Not knowing the potential of a perk doesn't make you bad at the game, the perks are relatively new, it's common for players to not realize how good they are
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So pointing what you did is now meaning insult?
"we had nicolas, ellen and alan, all of them have good perks, people just don´t know how to use them"
That's what you said. You blamed people don't know how to use them if they dislike those perks. And i took this on myself because for me those perks are pretty weak. And i know how to use them. I know what potential they have. And this potential is just not good enough.
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???
Plot Twist, Light-Footed, and Champion of Light are all just flat out strong perks. The others might be more arguable (and I would argue some of the remaining perks are decently good, just not all of them), but those ones aren't. Where's the joke supposed to be?
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You blamed people don't know how to use them if they dislike those perks
no? tell me when i said anything bad about the players who doesn´t know how to use it, a perk being good or not is a fact, no matter if you like it or not, what is good enough for you then? old MFT?
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The real reason, survivors hate UW. Lmao
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon also i´m pretty sure we shuldn´t be talking about the thing we are talking about, so my bad
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So what did you meant then? Because from my exp, players are using good perks. They always makes their way to meta. If you loved those perks, sure. Enjoy. But just because you enjoy them, it does not mean they are good perks.
People are complaining about new survivors perks are being garbage for months now because devs are barely giving anything useful to survivors.
Now i am sure you are excited for Sable's perks too but many people already know they are mid perks.
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Just a thought, what if WoO worked a bit like OoO? Every 30s you are shown all objects for 3s, maybe even map wide so that you know exactly where the dead zones are, buts not constantly monitoring all pallets and vaults all the time.
It would require again some game sense to interpret the info and play ahead, but still give enough info to get by. And the dreaded automaton playstyle of "beeline to pallet, predrop, rinse, repeat" would be a lot less aggrevating and viable.
Just a thought that accured to me while killing some time doing my business.
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oh my god 🤦♂️
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Lets say 1 third of total survivors are good (1 third are mid and 1 third are bad) enough to chain titles without the need of WoO.
Nerfing the perk would not affect the skilled 1 third. But heavy affect the other 2 third survivors. Which mean that would not solve killers' "problem" (losing against skilled 1 third), while the 2 third survivors die alot more often, increasing kill rate and lead to nerfing killer in general.
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It probably will given it's by far the most popular survivor perk in the game and has been for ages, despite being a DLC perk.
For the sake of promoting variety, it needs some kind of nerf.
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Stop it.
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No, I'm being serious. What are you talking about? There have been good perks. Even being as aggressively selective as possible, there's no way of interpreting Champion of Light as a bad perk.
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When BHVR released the most used perks around patch 6.1.0 not so long ago, was WoO in the top ten for survivors? IIRC, it wasn’t. WoO while always a solid perk only became popular because other popular survivor perks were whittled down into nothing.
Believe it or not but there will always be a survivor META. You can’t rid the game of that. And if you just make all survivor perks bad—guess what? People don’t enter futile games with bad perks (what killer mains hope will happen), they just stop playing. Lol. It’s Deathgarden 2.0 (what BHVR wants to avoid).
Edit: spelling
Post edited by Ayodam on2 -
Jesterkind, the perks you’ve named are either full of drawbacks, require awkward gameplay that borderline throws the game, or are wildly outclassed by other perks. Better perks—that themselves aren’t strong.
So here’s a thought experiment: let’s assume they are strong perks.
Why are they so rare to see in gameplay? Why aren’t players consistently running them? Are the perks so good they’re seldom used because people just don’t understand how good they are? People like Otzdarva (this forum’s favorite, right?), Ayrun, Team Eternal, Team Oracle, and other amazing survivor players with thousands of hours in the game? These are the crème of the crop when it comes to survivor players, but are they too dimwitted to recognize just, in your words, how “strong” those perks are?
The answer cannot be yes and no.
What makes a perk strong boils down to three things: what it does, how often situations that require its benefit occur, and how consistently it does what it does. Perks that provide a situational advantage or come in clutch when the stars align aren’t strong; they’re situationally useful. That still makes them weak when measured against perks with broader applications. Strong perks transcend situational value, which is why they become META-relevant.
Edit: it just occurred to me we have different ideas about what it means for a perk to be strong. Strong, in my eyes, means META-relevant with manageable (if any at all) drawbacks, and versatile yet providing consistent value.
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Yeah I am not sure why this appears to be a difficult concept to grasp for this forum. It almost feels like forced contrarianism.
Content Creators are not above criticism and definitely not omnipotent, but some of them compete for money so if these perks truly were diamonds in the rough it would be widely known.
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When these content creators play to win, they are not using these perks. 🤷🏽♀️ If I ever see them at all it’s in a meme-style build with the players literally throwing the game to make the perks work. And they explicitly state that they’re just messing around.
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This thread is about Windows of Opportunity, the number one most picked perk. Is it therefore the strongest perk in the game? No, that's laughable. It barely does anything at all.
Pickrate does not always correlate with strength. People pick perks based on a number of factors that includes strength, but isn't limited entirely to it. Take Windows again: Why do people run Windows? Because it's nice. It's nice to know for sure you are avoiding deadzones, and it's nice to see what your options are. You can get almost all of this information just from keeping an eye out, and what little you can't get that way can come from stronger perks, but Windows is the most convenient, accessible, and passive of those. That's why it's picked, not because it's strong.
I don't know or care why top tier players don't run these perks. I don't consider them the gold standard models for the only things you should or could ever do in this game, so I don't particularly care to look into it either.
So, why are they so rare? I could be reductive here, and I wouldn't be wrong to do so. I could just say "because people incorrectly think they're bad", and that wouldn't be inaccurate, it'd just be unhelpful.
There are factors that go into it beyond just community perception; for one, some of them are strong in areas people don't care about. For example, Light-Footed is a really good perk for denying the killer info and breaking chases, but breaking chases tends to be less popular than extending chases, in my experience.
Some of them require playstyles or actions people don't want to go out of their way for. An older example, but Overzealous is a good pick to showcase what I mean here; that perk is quite strong when paired with a boon build and a little careful planning, but most players don't want that, they want passive value from things that just function in the background or require very little extra thought from them. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it also doesn't make the perks they discount for this reason bad either.
Some of them, yes, have some randomness to them, but that's often conflated with the above point in my experience. Something like Chemical Trap is crazy good if put on the right pallet, but some players don't like gambling on being in the right position to use it, even if it's not all that uncommon. People have a bad habit of assuming they have no control over a perk's consistency, though, and that's not always true. Some perks you absolutely can make consistent.
Some of them, it must be said, come from survivors with a bad reputation. An older example again, but Overcome is one of the stronger Exhaustion perks and among the strongest perks period... but pretty much everyone clowns on Jonah, so how many people even have this perk to use it, let alone pay attention to it? I'd argue this is what's happening when you see people immediately discount Cut Loose, even though it's basically just Quick & Quiet with one extra step. Tools of Torment and its associated survivors have a bad enough reputation that people just dismiss all the perks, only Background Player gets to escape this because of how absurdly strong it is in areas people actually care about.
Also, they're new, so fewer survivors even have them, let alone have put in any thought to figuring out the best use case for them yet. That is a factor that can't be ignored, how many players HAVE the perk is going to affect how many players bring that perk into their trials. Sometimes they're new, sometimes they're gated behind real money, and sometimes it's both.
And then, finally, yeah, there is a tendency to just discount new perks entirely if they aren't game-breakingly strong. Again, people in this thread and you specifically are discounting Champion of Light, a genuinely strong new perk. I do sincerely believe this is 100% a perception and attitude problem, that stacks with the above points.
Notice that only one of the above points actually runs foul of your breakdown of a strong perk. The perks I'm talking about largely do something worth doing, the situations they do it in are under your control, and their consistency in those situations is under your control too. There are just other factors that lead to people choosing other perks.
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every info perk ever takes away the need for game sense
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like i said before: not being the best one and being bad are different things
artist is not better than nurse, so artist is bad for you guys? 🤷♂️
and the a lot of ´´Content creators´´ made videos about those perks
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Killers aren't comparable to perks so that is the first thing.
Secondly this is a PVP game, consistency and efficiency are and should be the determining factors in what makes something good.
Perks that are inconsistent and require wasting efficiency are not good, what is not clicking?
If you do not care what top tier players do then there is no way to give your opinion much weight because you lack credibility. This is not a personal dig at all, but why should one believe that people are just ignorant/stubborn when the people who research and compete in this game for a large part of their living disagree with what you are saying?
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There are two reasons why I don't care about the opinions of pros, or more accurately, why I don't consider their opinions correct by default.
The first is that the pro scene in most games tends to be radically different to the experience of actually playing a match yourself. The expectations and context for a lot of decisions and actions are wildly different because they're built on the way people at the top play, which cannot be guaranteed to be how things work in regular games. This was a problem I had back when I played Overwatch, too; watching the pros only did so much when all their decisions were based around being in a team of players they know and trust with top tier communication.
The second is that even disregarding the top point, pros tend to optimise. I don't care about only bringing the absolute best and whether something is considered viable within that context, I care about if it's good, on its own merits, not compared to the most efficient and optimised meta build available. That's not a fun, engaging, or helpful way to approach the game, in my opinion.
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The top players of this game frequently interact with laymen though, there are tons of solo-queue experience that they have, granted, their attitudes and overall play-style is abhorrent. Which is why I don't like the CC's of this game, but I still respect their knowledge and ability. They also makes tons of content for casuals and above, so its pretty clear that they have a deep understanding of how the game works at all levels.
DBD isn't similar to Overwatch because Overwatch has a ranked mode and Blizzard's MMR is probably leagues and miles above BHVR's coding.
The problem is that optimization is inherent to something being good. Perks do not exist in a vacuum, so no matter what its ability to perform will always include how it compares to other perks, and things like Lucky Star are terrible even within the niche of terrible perks because they simply do not provide enough benefit to outweigh their conditions. Niche perks would be okay if the game was more casual, but DBD is not casual and by running these perks you are hindering your team, even if player skill typically can close that gap.
The reason people are dissatisfied with survivor perks recently is because all that is being granted are niche perks, which is seriously killing perk variety. This is not a community problem. The pool of meta perks should always be abundant so there's an efficient perk load-out for most playstyles.
Funny enough the problem that people claim is happening on the killer side, where they state that only four killers are viable due to the rest falling to the wayside in higher MMR brackets, is more true for survivor perks than anything.
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No. Actually I would change it.
Unpopular opinion? I'd actually change Windows to be a base perk at yellow level with Windows increasing the range of the vision so that purple is the same as it is now. Just so people aren't paying a perk tax. I'd also make it so that it no longer sees breakable doors which have no meaning whatsoever to survivors. I play 80% killer so don't go accusing me of being a survivor main :D.
Playing solo no matter how good you are also means you have no idea what has been dropped and what hasn't unless you run windows. Alternatively, the reverse of windows could work as base kit. You know what pallets have been dropped already.
This game has terrible new player onboarding and kill rates are much higher at lower levels then at high. Such a change would help with this immensely. Not to mention it'd stop being a perk tax when playing solo.
At the end of the day pallets should be a stall and using them wisely is a skill players learn as they get better. Simply having windows and running and dropping every pallet you see without playing each tile properly still loses the game.
Realistically if Windows is too big of a problem, it's probably because the map is poorly designed rather then the perk being too strong. Windows simply gives information that should honestly be public knowledge, using that information wisely is the skill. Windows doesn't do that for you.
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Couple things wrong here;
So, first, I am not comparing DBD to Overwatch. You're pulling a "DBD is like hockey" on me here; the point is that the concept I'm talking about is present in most games that have some kind of pro scene, and I used Overwatch as an example because I had personal experience with it. In most games where there's a pro scene, that pro scene's gameplay is going to look very different to a regular match.
The pros can have good insight, I was a little too broad with my first statement, but they are not objectively correct by default. By all means pay attention to them if you want, but they are not giving us the word of god on how strong a perk is.
Second, optimisation is NOT inherent to whether something is good. There's really no gentle way for me to say that, it's just flat out wrong. Optimisation is the best of the best, and this is not a binary. It's not "this is the best around" and "this is bad" with no other options, there is a very, very broad middle ground and most perks - including new ones - fall in that middle ground.
Third, are the perks we're getting recently niche, though? Some of them are, but certainly not all of them. Take our most recent survivor, Alan Wake. Three perks, how many of them are niche? Illumination is and would be if it were buffed properly, yes, but is Deadline? No, not really. If it were buffed properly (IE, removing one of the downsides) it'd be a very broad perk. Is Champion of Light? Again, no, it has very broad application in something most players want to do.
Even setting aside that we are just getting generally good perks, the fact of the matter is we're 137 perks deep on just the survivor side. Most of the general and broad perks already exist, without power-creep causing insanely broken perks the devs are going to have to start looking at more niche perks eventually.
Fourth, this might be a semantic nitpick, but there's never going to be a large and broad pool of meta perks, that's antithetical to what a meta is. What there should be is a large and broad pool of viable perks that may not be the absolute best of the best but are absolutely worth running... and we're pretty damn close to that right now.
Both sides claim their pool of viable options is very small. Both sides are wrong.
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most likely will be nerfed WoO is pretty much a requirement for how good it is
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Yeah but none are as free as windows and ulti weapon
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I highly disagree of this
You nerf and then another perk gets to 30% and is subject of nerf again
The only way out is to actually buff every single perk to the point they can become meta, so the meta variety is infinite
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Where are we getting that Adrenaline is getting nerfed? Where is this information?
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It’s on the road map for the first half of 2024
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It probably will, seeing how high of a usage rate it has, though I hold out hope that the developers understand that nothing about this perk needs changing. Windows serves two main purposes right now:
1 - Allowing solo players to know what resources their teammates have used/breakable walls killer has kicked
2 - Allowing lesser experienced players to know where resources are
1 is not a problem and is actually good as a step to allow solo players to get closer to SWF level in more balanced ways. And all taking windows away will do at the lower level is raise the kill rates unnecessarily. For 2, the only map where knowing where pallets are means noobs can play them perfectly is The Game (because they're mostly god pallets you can predrop and play with your brain off), on every other map there is 1 or 2 god pallets at most and nearly every other pallet can be played around and bloodlusted, with average/below average survivors usually performing poorly at unsafe pallets. The predrop issue on The Game isn't an issue with WOO either, it's an issue with the map.
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I didnt see it when I previously looked at it
I take it back, I did some deeper searching with a different search parameter and found it.
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