Are devs fine with killers winning hundreds of games in a row?
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:3
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It's more common to find cracked killers doing insane winstreaks, because they play alone. In order to do that as survivor, you'd need a full squad of pipe hitters, the reason that is less common, I'd imagine, would be scheduling conflicts, most of these squads try to go pro and don't create content, and the fact that survivor is an overall more casual aspect of the game.
Also, yeah, MMR sucks, it prioritizes speed over balance.
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I'm probably mid MMR and I get pretty mixed games.
Except on Sadako, I still manage a lot of 3k-4k matches because I still have so many survivors refuse to touch tapes.
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I mean if escape rate is 40% it leans killer sided on average, so I am gonna assume the same is true for mid MMR.
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Considering that's what the devs want, with killers being at a 60% killrate, probably a fair assessment.
Really we need to be looking at the more nuanced parts of this game like Nurse, who we all know is extremely oppressive with her power but has a low killrate in the stats, and Skull Merchant where so many swear up and down she's a mid-tier killer but has a high killrate. (And the aforementioned Sadako getting so many kills because survivors refuse to do the counterplay, from my experience.)
I mean, do we really think Freddy is OP when he's sitting above most of the other killers in the stats too?
But to keep things on topic, I do think the escape/kill %'s are also kinda skewed in a nuanced way too. We know it ignores DCs but I bet it doesn't ignore survivors giving up on hooks, which I experience even on Trapper or as a survivor against Legion or Trickster or whoever the other survivors don't want to face. We also have to account that tunneling a survivor out to snowball the last 3 either works extremely well for the stats or gives survivors a 4-man escape if they flub it. Stats don't paint a whole picture.
Edit: We may also need to account for hackers in that sense, too. They could be inflating escape rates under our noses.
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I think the hacker/cheater part definitely holds some water. Doctor having by far the lowest killrate could be because some people tend to use him to farm BP and shards without actually playing him. He's not the best killer, but there's no real reason he'd have the lowest stats by a big three percent unless something funny was going on.
Honestly, with how random DBD is, stats themselves should pretty much always be considered inconsistent.
For instance, how is a Trapper who 4ks a swf with 4bnp compared to a Blight 4king a bunch of Solo Qs? It's still a 4k, do the devs count them the same in the stats? How about MMR? There's simply too many variables to control in a match. 5 Offerings, Killer, Perks on both sides, maps, totem spawns, etc.
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How would you nerf individual elite players hurt their hands? Or nerf a killer for that 0.3% players and make the other 99.7% players suffer? You can't go after these elite killers and survivor teams they will win more or less every game unless facing each other.
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Hens made a video about it, he and his friends did 200 escapes in a row. Then there are a lot of people who even post solo Q winstreaks of 50-100 escapes
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For example Hens and his Friends or eternal this Saturday :)
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They don't do 4 out streaks though, the win condition is always 3 out. Just because of exactly that situation.
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Can you show me a recent 50-100 solo queue escape streak video?
The 200 wins was done by the best team in the world, and they had very soft ruleset with 3 people out. Killer winstreak are usually 4K and some even prefere 4K before last gen pops. And 200 wins is for killer not much. Even Pig and Myers streaks close to that number.
Is winstreak telling the full story of ballance? No, that would go to far, but it is an indicator that killer can get wins more consistent.
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The percentage of killer players going on these streaks is miniscule. You can't balance the game around players who dedicate tons of time to the game and play it as efficiently as humanly possible.
This game was not and is not designed to be balanced around optimal gameplay; it was designed to be played casually. As such, really sweaty, uber-dedicated gamers are gonna break it. But lucky for us, the VAST majority of players are nowhere near this level, even if they aspire to be (or delude themselves into thinking they are).
It's just that these very few also happen to be the most visible. Most killer players will never even sniff a 20 game winstreak, much less 1000+. And even so, many players lie (GASP!) or are otherwise deceptive about their winstreaks. Most people bragging about their play in online forums are full of it.
If you change the game to handicap the extreme end of the spectrum, you're going to break the game entirely for like 99% of killer players. Just like you can't balance the game around super SWFs without making solo queue absolutely unplayable.
Just take solace that very few of us will actually encounter these people in pubs, and most never will.
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Current win streak of hens and his friends is around 130 and going, killer requirement is usually nobody escapes through gates after all gens are done... Not 4k.
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For some, for many others any 3K+ is a win. That's one of the other reflections of how casual this game is, there isn't even a loose official definition of what a win even is. The community has been pretty much left to define their own.
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I might be thinking of older streaks then, my bad. Still, A killer can end games at almost any point with the right pressure and circumstances, survivors aren't going anywhere without five generators or the DC button. I'd still say it's harder to get streaks with survs than killers.
Especially since, y'know, there's only one player on killer. A swf streak needs four survs who are presumably all gods at the game.
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"Killer can get wins more consistent"
Because the killer is a single person, while the survivors are four, it's more likely for the survivors to have 1-2 bad players that the killer can take advantage of to win. This is also the reason why there aren't as many survivor win streaks, as it's harder to get four people to consistently play 100 matches.
Also, considering that winstreaks happen in the normal queue, there are always survivors going AFK, throwing, not playing at their best ability, etc. I've had survivors DC as soon as they see a Killer they don't like, or if I down someone quickly because I'm running Lethal Pursuer. The casual queue its just not reliable.
I could see the argument if someone pulled a winstreak against only comp Survivors, though, but I haven't seen something like that yet.
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There is no solo q streak of 100+ wins. Ayrun got a 34 excape streak but i don't think sitting in the corner waiting for everyone to die is much of a accomplishment. Which most of these solo streaks are base on and without it they wouldn't even get over 10 games.
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Doctor by a long mile the best easiest killer to do dailies for, you just shock,so I imagine that’s why.
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I would not necessarily say harder, but more time consuming in any case.
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Fair point, that could also skew the statistics. Really just goes to show how many different things need to be accounted for in order to take Killrates at anything but face value.
You could def call it that too
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Not even close to the amount a killer can the most is like 350 on survivor by the best comp players in the world. Alf is currently on a 1100+ streak.
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I think the hundreds / thousands of win streaks are actually a distraction from the real problem. Whenever it comes up people just go to - that must be top 0.1%. Which might be true.
I think how common win streaks of 10 to 50 are is a bigger issue. Lots of killer players, on a variety of killers, pull this off. Or how content creators have to give themselves rather extreme challenges to make killer interesting.
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Not only the top 5%, but everyone above intermediate level recognizes that the M1 killer is at a disadvantage.
Still, the reason why it is emphasized that the top 5% are a special case is obvious, probably because most of the players are beginners. I got the impression through this forum that out of all the players, probably 80%+ are beginners, and only about 10% are considered intermediate.
If so, that would explain why intermediate survivors keep losing to M1 killers. If MMR is the reason, intermediate players should be matched with beginners, but also likely to be matched with advanced players. However, in reality, most people meet people who are of a lower rank than them.
The only explanation for this is that it is due to the population ratio. There are almost no people above the intermediate level, and beginners are always crowded below. So it's natural that the Survivor has an advantage over the M1 Killer but isn't able to take advantage of it.
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Albyaround attempted a soloQ survivor streak ~6 months ago on his stream. He tried for a full week then gave up. Not only did he fail to achieve more than 5-6 wins in a row, but the last day was so bad that he couldn't even win a single game anymore, his teammates kept suiciding on hook and every single killer was slugging to deny him hatch. The games were surreal. He ended up being genuinely triggered, shut off the stream, then afterwards deleted the VOD and said he would never attempt an escape streak again. I've never seen Alby get that angry.
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Of course, this is a tragedy because there were no more three Mr. Albys. Survivors who are selfish are always an obstacle to survivors who are not.
The worst enemy of a decent survivor is a bad survivor, not killer.
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Even 4-man Survivor streaks aren't very long and they aren't restrictive at all.
Even Clown has a higher 4K streak than Survivors have and the Survivors counted 3 escapes as a win.
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Yes, so it's a result of bad survivors not doing their jobs and holding back survivors who aren't. It's just that too many survivors don't work.
In fact, life as a survivor is extremely comfortable if I have the right people to work with, including me.
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You clearly haven’t played fighting games. Top players win literally hundreds of games in a row in ranked play. These winstreaks are possible because of bad play by the average survivor team. Nothing special here.
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Probably higher ranking in dbd means Platinum or higher in Street Fighter 6. And many players say that "balancing the game for them is very stupid."
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Playing killer is of course an advantage, since you have to only rely on yourself. Survivors may all have different goals, playstyles and skill. That is a very likely reason why killers can have massiv winstreaks. I never said anything else.
My issue is, that we use this same argument all the time - in both directions. When the killer is winning: The survivors are 4 times more likely to do a mistake. And when the killer is loosing: The survivors are so powerful, because their mistakes are so forgiving since they are 4 people and can correct themselves.
It is the one or the other.
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The point however is that both streaks only end when going against comp players on the other side, however it happens far less often to encounter a full 4 men comp team that wants to end your killer streak because of it being more time consuming and you need four players. It however has the same high potential, it is just that it ends more likely as one comp killer is way easier to get matched with.
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As I said before, there are far more comp killers just playing killer than full on 4 men comp teams... The odds of meating a comp killer are just higher, therefore the streak ends with a higher probability. However the condition of such a streak ending is the same, if they encounter a comp player or a 4 men comp team, they will have a really rough time.
KNightlight on his 500 + Nurse streak has often said that if a comp team snipes him his streak would just end.
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But this precisely goes to show that succeeding as killer in this game is much more possible than doing so as survivor. Since encountering good opponents is infinitely more common on survivor than on killer, as it basically takes encountering a good 4-player SWF on comms, which is vanishingly rare as compared to just a good killer player playing killer.
My general opinion on these streaks as always is that they most of all show how abysmal the matchmaking is. Even when ignoring top 0.X% tournament players and Nurse/Blight/Spirit all of which are extreme outliers, there's tons of players that go on streaks or have ridiculous winrates on killer. Any even just decent, above-average killer player rarely loses, as evidenced on streams. The MMR "soft" cap as well as the lax matchmaker simply do not yield competitive matches with any consistency, even though there absolutely are players out there that could make some of these people have reasonable winrates. Another major reason is that the game format inherently favours the one over the four in terms of the impact their decisions, skills and "sweatiness" will have on the matches, as any one survivor player can in theory only determine "25%" of their side's performance level. And survivors are by the nature of them being 4 different players much more disconcerted than the killer player, all the more so of course if they are randoms that don't know each other, have no coordination and communication. And even one weak link in terms of skill/loadout/trying to win can spell disaster. This makes the public matchmaking environment extra killer-favoured as its randomness benefits them not only in terms of matchmaking but gameplay as well.
Matchmaking improvements are the first thing I would advocate for, creating more nuanced high MMR brackets and a more strict matchmaking algorithm at least at those upper brackets. An alternative if BHVR is scared that this leads to too much competitiveness could be creating a casual and competitive queue, with differing rulesets that promote casual and competitive play respectively. And then some solo queue improvements could still be in order, albeit without going overboard with it since I'm of the opinion that solo queue should be that uphill battle and retain its unique difficulty, including that to do with some of the randomness it yields in terms of not knowing what other players are using, doing, planning, and so on. It just makes it a different gamemode that is much closer to the "horror"-type gameplay experience, thrown into unknown and uncertain circumstances and having to make do with that, with very rudimentary means of acquiring information and coordination, that chaos and disconcertedness being more tangible. SWF should have loadout restrictions and Nurse/Blight/Spirit/tunnelling should be rebalanced (camping has more or less been "solved" by the removal of hook grabs (although showing all survivors the self-unhook bar of a hooked survivor would still be great), tunnelling however is a major issue still because of how much it exacerbates the "weak link" issue).
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It's the literal best team in the world playing Survivor going for these streaks.
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Pretty sure that means that these "unbeatable SWF's" that people seem to run into every game aren't actually that good.
Also isn't momo still on his 2000+ Blight streak? I'm pretty sure he's been sniped.
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I find it odd too but since it's a thing I guess they're okay with it.
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In this game, killer streaks are honestly not that impressive as they appear to be. But to each their own. Cause you are literally going against pubs players that are mostly solo q players. Id be more impressed if the streaks consist of going against swfs. But even then, thats a killer's worst nightmare when it comes to streaks. And usually, thats the 1st thing they blame it on if they lose the streak.
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As for the part of it being easier to succeed on killer than on survivor, I would not necessarily agree... Because there is a big difference between comp players and average players. And killer and survivor gameplay are also not really comparable, because you are playing with completely different mechanics and tasks in mind... If you have a group of 4 friends on discord your chances to succeed are probably higher than the average killer ones if you are somewhat decent at the game... If you play solo only sure I guess... But as killer you can still lose fairly easily against 4 people that know what they are doing despite not being on comes... I would not generalize stuff like that, as it is way too blurry and not precise.
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Obviously? Like are we just stating stuff that should be basic knowledge by now? Matchmaking is bad, really good players are rare, some killers are weaker than others. 4 really good survivors in one team are reeeeeally rare and so on and so forth.
I don't know, haven't been following that guy? But I guess with Blight nerfs it should be at least a bit harder to keep up against the occasional comp team that tries to ruin the streak?
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For the basic game premise of playing alone, yeah, I think it would be ludicrous not to acknowledge that succeeding on killer is infinitely more consistently possible than on survivor. A good killer player basically always wins. A good survivor player in solo queue will regularly die/have 2+ survivors die. Obviously this is because solo queue means you will have mismatched survivor groups, but that just adds to the fact that the matchmaking affects the survivor gameplay so disproportionally much. Including because the detriments of having even just one survivor player be worse than the killer player will regularly outweigh the benefits of having a survivor player be better than the killer player. The liability a weak link can be is so much greater for a survivor group than the ability of a good survivor to "carry", since the killer can exploit a weak link, while being able to more or less ignore a good player.
Whether a decent killer player will more often succeed than a decent 4-player SWF (with and without voice comms) might not be quite as obvious, but then again, I think since meeting good killer players is vastly more common than meeting survivors groups consisting of 4 good players (basically only happens in 4-player SWFs with any regularity, which are rare), my money is still firmly on the killer outperforming. I mean, we know from statistics that the public matchmaking environment has killers performing better on average than survivors, even when exclusively looking at "high MMR" 4-player SWFs.
Again though, I don't think solo queue should be an environment that yields a balanced outcome, it just inherently favours the killer and that's not a bad thing from a gameplay experience perspective either. But the matchmaking could still improve a ton without changing this too drastically. I think the game is still killer-leaning for a lot of the cast even if all 5 players on the server are roughly equally skilled, experienced and "sweaty", as long as the survivors have no coordination or communication (meaning they are not a premade group). And of course, the matchmaking will never be that good anyway.
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Could be.
Also, as for weaker Killers, I think Clown hit 450 games with a 4K recently
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That fully depends on what you define as a good killer player.. At a certain point it also gets relevant what killer he picked, because technically then certain killers would not be viable anymore, but since this case rarely ever happens all killers are viable in public matchmaking.
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Clown is not that weak tbh... With both bottles in play you can outplay most loops, it just that barely anyone does that and he has bad map pressure and mobility.
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Certainly not a Killer a lot of people would put above C-tier though.
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Well, they are wrong. Most games balance around high level. Only this community thinks that’s a problem.
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Is it only a problem when killers do it? Or is it also a problem when survivors do it?
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So far as I know, and I'm not omniscient, the highest Survivor streak is a 3-out and that's over 300, I think. It's also performed by some of the best players in the world.
Compare that to an equivalent Killer streak; Momo's Blight streak. Momo is an exceptionally good player and his Blight streak is 4K (with gens remaining, I think?) and it's over 2000 games.
I think the difference speaks for itself. Even with an easier win condition, Survivor streaks don't really get up there like Killer streaks do. I think 300 for the best players in the world is, well, fine. They are the best after all playing against random Killers. I also think that'd be fine for Killers, maybe even 500.
But 2000 4K's in a row is a bit excessive.
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The best survivors swfs in the world aren't doing what killers are doing not even close not even a quarter of what they're pulling off. Your git gud theory is nonsense unless your telling the best SWF team in the world they need to do better lol. Even with the worst killers in the game streaks are in the hundreds.
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Win streaks is what would be expected with an MMR system and how loose BHVR's matchmaking is. It's math; there are no surprises here and win streaks by themselves prove nothing except that BHVR uses MMR and the matchmaking favours queue times over strict matchmaking.
If you don't expect win streaks from how BHVR has its system set up you're not understanding how the probabilities involved work.
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Either top of C or bottom of B tier, at least... Think about it, there is like a 200 something pages clown guide how to outplay basically every single tile in the game, it is kind of insane what you can do when you know how to.
I find the amount of pages ridiculous, but I can't deny that that is a thing not many killers can do.
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