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Why are SWF mains so dead set against Killers knowing they are up against premades?
Is it because they know no killer in their right mind will go against a full four man bully squad?
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No one likes being stuck in the lobby as killers dodge over and over. The same reason ppl have been asking for prestige levels to be hidden.
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It's almost like SWFs aren't fun to play against as the game is rigged in their favor due to how broken having the ability to coordinate over voice comms is.
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If Killers get to see who or how many are in a SWF. Then Survivors should be able to know who the Killer is in lobby as well.
Good luck being able to play the game though with Killer dodging SFW stacks and Survivors dodging unliked Killers.
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I can't speak for these SWF mains you're talking about, but I'm against it because lobby dodging is bad and we should not be encouraging it.
As an aside, I like going against bully squads. They're fun, and if they're committing to it they're an easy win. It's the teams that are actually trying to win that give me difficult games.
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Yeah, the problem with that is that knowing what Killer you are playing against means you can literally tailor your build to hard counter the Killer. That's why survivors don't see who the Killer is.
All Killers seeing how many survivors in a lobby are in a premade does is tell them how many are in a premade. It is information that does not give the Killer an advantage over survivors.
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U do realize that win rate for 4 man SWF IS LEGIT 3.% DIFFRENT FROM SOLO AND DUO RIGHT
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So how about letting it show in the endgame lobby? No reason to see it in the pregame lobby or as you said with survivors, killers can also just change their builds. That's if they don't lobby dodge for an easier game.
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It's the same reason: If a member of a premade dies and they can see the Killers perks or addons, they can tell the others what the Killer has and allow them to hard counter them without figuring them out themselves.
Killers can't see survivors perks until the end of the match, either.
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Lot to unpack here.
Gonna hazard a guess and say this is gonna be one of those where it devolves into some people making good points and others saying, "Clearly a X main"
Show SWF after the match. No more lobby, hide names during the game as well.
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Lobby dodging. It's as simple as that.
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Because lobby shopping is bad for the game, and informing the killer of who's teamed encourages lobby shopping?
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So I should be forced to play rigged games then? Because a full SWF has the game rigged in their favor.
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The game already encourages lobby shopping when you see a full group of survivors with flashlights, medkits or toolboxes.
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And that somehow changes the fact that a four man SWF is simply just not fun to play against?
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I mean, it's not really rigged. You can still win. They just have an advantage over solo players. I think you're reading too much into it. Just because they play with their friends doesn't mean they are any good.
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How about showing a value of addons the killer is running? Say it lets the survivors know whether the killer is running a brown and a yellow, or two iris. It certainly isn't fun to be in soloq and hit a killer running double iri with a group of survivors bringing no gear.
You are always playing a rigged game, by design the game is in the killer's favor.
Every single person on this forum has things they find unfun that other players find fun.
The math is simple: showing SWFs would lead to substantially more lobby dodging which would result in more players stopping playing the game than allowing it to continue as is.
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The game is still in the Killers favor, even when there is a 4-man, which is rare.
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And that's bad.
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Nah. Its just that Killers think that SWFs grant such a big advantage that they lose games. Which is just not the case. The SWFs which really will make you lose the games are so rare that it isnt even worth mentioning them.
Most of the time the SWFs Killers encounter are players who just want to play with each other.
But since Killers can get so much information before the game, they decide to dodge Lobbies until they find a group of Survivors who are not in an SWF and who ideally also have not too many hours.
Killers should not be allowed to cherrypick their lobbies that hard and only because someone is playing with one or multiple friends, does not mean that they have to wait ages to get a game, just because Killers think that only because certain content creators think that SWFs are OP and dodge them left and right.
If we start showing SWF in the pregame-Lobby, they can also let Survivors see the Killer they go against, but not let them change the build. Then you can maybe understand how annoying Lobby-dodging would be if you want to play Nurse and never find a game.
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One day I got a map offering to Hawkings. The SWF had a Boon Specialist. Making me waste time to go upstairs to snuff it out. No tracking with Shadow Step. They always fell under the pallets, ready to be saved. They had Exponential so they will inevitably stand. I chase one person 1-2 would be in the many lockers ready with Head On.
After the 4th attempt at Head On I stared at them, and left the match. Hahaha
SWFs always make plays that wouldn’t happen with 4 randoms. It’s never that precise/consistent. Like the moment you chase someone a boon goes off to hide their tracks for them, etc.
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Sorry I wasn't talking about seeing the killer or perks there in th second part. I meant seeing if they are in a swf or not. There's no reason to see it pregame if it doesn't give an advantage. I wouldn't be opposed to it showing post game though so people can stop speculating whether it was a swf or not they played against.
If I'm not mistaken they changed the endgame screen a long time ago. Survivors can see things in the endgame lobby but only after the match is over. It use to be the opposite and worked exactly like you just said. Survivors would dc to tell there teammates if a killer had noed, etc.
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You can already kind of determine a survivor player’s relationship to other players by checking their profiles. A lot of players are wising up and locking/privatizing their profiles now but generally if people in a lobby are friends they’re a SWF.
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High MMR SWF have an average escape rate of like 48%. How is that rigged in their favour?
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I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding here, but are you saying that if someone dies they can see the killer's perks and tell the others? Because that hasn't been a thing for years and killer loadouts are hidden until the end of the match.
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And those groups make up what, one team out of 10,000 overall?
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I have absolutely nothing against showing swf in lobby. - Though, given how petty the reasons are for lobby dodging I'm very sure it wouldn't improve Qtimes/matchmaking. Quite the contrary.
Now, as far as lobby dodging is concerned, I'm still all for the rule: you commit the moment you have a match in lobby, not the moment the match starts. Ergo, a penalty like the DC penalty should also apply for leaving a lobby.
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Because it makes little to no difference statistically, but killers with a victim-complex will absolutely make it as miserable as possible for those players. BHVR has shown that 4 man SWF at the highest MMR bracket still averages less than a 50% escape rate, and STILL killers claim that the SWFs they face are OP. There is no way to reason with that mindset.
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I understand not showing in pre game lobby as everyone would dodge, it makes sense. However I see no rational argument for not showing in post game lobby so we can at least gauge how well we should have done.
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Going against a four-squad is usually sweaty but I'll take a bully squad over any other kind of team.
They are always trying to make the killer miserable.
They always die in the end.
I've more fun against them than against no-heal-gen-rushers.
Give me your bully squads. 😋
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What's 'fun' is irrelevant. If 'fun' has value in this game, no one is showing it. Killers tunnel without remorse, knowing its unfun for everyone else. Survivors bully if the killer isn't competent. This also breeds disdain for players.
Most of what players are doing in the game can constitute 'unfun'. Its more of a joke at this point, and I dont think BHVR has any idea how to combat player's wanting to ruin games for other players, just because.
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Best idea is just assume every lobby is a 4 man SWF but remember that 90% of survivors are terrible at the game and being in a SWF still wont carry them
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Killers already dodge high prestige to the point most of us just avoid playing our mains so we’re not stuck in the lobby. How would that be different if you can see pre-made?
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First off, just because you are in a 4-player squad does NOT make them a "Bully Squad" . I know a lot of you would like to think that but just because everyone likes to use the term doesn't make it true.
Second, I don't care if the killer knows or doesn't know. What I do know is that the moment they know, they will either bring the sweatiest builds, play in the scummiest of ways. Simply because people are trying to play together, and that's not cool with me. 🤷♂️
It would be like if we knew who the killer we were facing was. "You're playing against a Skull Merchant".... *Every survivor puts on a genrush build*. Same philosophy.
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So the top 5% of this game is just the top half of all but 90% of them, right? Yes, I think so too. In that case, the escape rate of the top 5% should not be used as reference material. This is because even within that 5%, there are considerable disparities. I think the stories of those who have experienced that world and those who haven't will probably not mesh well with each other.
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Lobby dodging sucks and I don't know why that's up for debate. The same way it sucks as a killer to load into a match and see players DC cause the survivors heard Skull Merchant's TR and decided they didn't want to play anymore. This is not behavior we should be encouraging, plain and simple.
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Agree with everything but the Skull merchant bit. I fully understand their abrupt onset of annoying/irritation/F this killer. I wholly think they have that right. That killer should be deleted. (I know this wasnt your point, just an example. But it matters!)
Good points regardless!
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They could show swf in the post game lobby, but its better to not do it in the pregame lobby cause it would likely increase dodging. All tho it would be nice to know if your vs a swf because you usually have to play harder vs a decent swf.
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I'm fine with killers knowing, if its on the post game , but pre game, its just turns into lobby shopping.
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While I agree the majority of SWFs are not a problem (most are just chill and playing with friends) the masses not utilizing something properly doesn't make it not OP. Sweat squads are indeed OP, and the game simply isn't designed for the advantages they can utilize. We saw something similar with MFT, as many survivors weren't able to get much out of it, but the ones who did got disproportionate value. Its an example of a statistic like escape rates being easy to misinterpret through confirmation bias. And again, this is coming from someone who does not think the existence of SWF, nor the majority of the ones in the game, are an issue.
I personally think that at the very least there should be notification in the post game tally.
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How do they have a rigged advantage when there escape rate is still under 50% at the highest MMR. That literally means no matter what skill not being an issue killer still has a higher win rate if you are going by escapes which is what bhvr deems the win condition.
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I used to very strongly believe SWF should be displayed in the lobby but I’ve been coming around to the opposing point of view.
For one thing, I had a misconception that SWF gave a 15% win rate advantage which isn’t true (and which the recent stats show is really only 3% for the vast majority of SWF groups). I’ve also been dodging obvious SWF groups a lot less (though if it’s a bunch of TTVs I still do since “being toxic for views” is still a thing for a lot of them).
I also think the fact that SWF teams would just wind up with gigantic queue times can’t be ignored. Look at how TCM had SWF indicators and had to remove them because people couldn’t get into games otherwise.
I definitely think BHVR has some responsibility to continue closing the gaps between solo queue and SWF while also adjusting killer base gameplay to compensate for survivor buffs (something they’ve been hit-and-miss at).
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Sometimes I watch variety streamers play DBD with their friends in a 4 person SWF. they invariably play worse than me and have a worse escape rate than I do, despite being, as I mentioned, a 4 person SWF - due to having probably less than 50 hours in the game. I would imagine such streamers would never be able to get a game due to lobby dodging, even though they're inexperienced, due to killer players assuming they're a seal team 6 gen squad or whatever.
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Show SWF and prestiges post-game. Give a BP bonus to killers who faced a three-man or four-man. Grant the solo surv with a three-man a bonus as well. That's what I'd like to see done.
Lobby shopping and the resultant backfilling is the single biggest problem with their matchmaking system. We shouldn't be suggesting changes that will worsen that issue.
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Why should killer get bp bonus against swf? Like, most of those swf dont play better than four solos. Stop guessing swf equal godmode.
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Again, regardless of whether they utilize their advantage properly, they still have one. Most SWFs aren't an issue but they still have access to something the game was not designed for, voice comms. BP is something that has no impact on gameplay nor balance and would be simply a bonus for going up against such an advantage (Therefore making it a good compensation metric, rather than something gameplay/balance related) Their suggestion also said to give a bonus to solos paired with a SWF as well, which I also agree with.
Post edited by Ryuhi on4 -
I'm aware of the latest stats. What I'm looking at is the psychological effect it could have after the trial for the killer.
Should they have a difficult game, and see they went against two dous or a duo and two solos, their ire for all SWFs lowers. If they steamroll a three-man or four-man, their ire again lessons. Should that four-man defeat them, then they get that bonus to lessen the pain some.
Here's where some kind of replay system would help. Most players do not record, and they've said it's apparently near-impossible to add such a system. So players have less opportunity to review their actions and mistakes, let alone what their opponents did, and learn.
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I've been trying to make a point that certain things for new players, average players etc can have lasting effects post game. Its very similar to what you're explaining here for the killer who was defeated. That psychological effect is pretty harsh in DbD.
Easily applied perfectly to the tunneling meta. But thats a different conversation!
If they ever introduce 'This is a swf team, killer!' then they need to remove lobby dodging. A DC penalty system would be great for lobby shoppers! lol
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I agree with this take. I as a killer main don't mind going against swf. However I like to check profiles when I can. I want to know if I will be at a disadvantage as they have access to comms.
I won't dodge, but it helps me to plan for the match. The survivors get an advantage with comms. Why should I be required to play against something that is unfair? If I want to run pallet Freddy or a Hex build I know that if it's a swf on comms they will call it out. Lit totem at shack, fake pallets drop early etc. That is an advantage.
I know swf is mostly just friends chilling and playing the game. The point for me is outside comms is an advantage. The killer gets nothing in compensation for it. I think that offering BP to solos and duos as well as Killer's facing swf would give players a reason to not dodge and play the match.
Just my opinion tho.
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Just to clarify, I'm more in the camp of knowing it was a SWF after the match rather than before, due to the afforementioned dodging issues it causes in prematch. I just think there should be a little something extra for solo players (on both sides) having to put up with them.
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I would agree as well. If we got to know who was swf it would work 2 ways. Sure killers would have more of an excuse to not look at the way they played and just blame it on swf.
On the same note, it may actually make killers say oh, it wasn't a swf. It's me. I need to get better. Killers think swf are the reason they lost. Sure sometimes it may be. But it could also be we did not play that well.
I would like the option to see. Imo.
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