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Tunneling is overblown
Comments
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I think he just drew a parallelism that makes sense in his mind. Maybe there was no point; it could have just been a random thought that occurred to him which he shared with you. Could have been knee-jerk. Or quite possibly to him it seemed relevant enough to share. But I don’t believe he was labeling you as anti-accessibility (or even someone against basekit features).
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A 1-minute chase can already lose you the game though. You have to pick up, walk to hook, look for gens with progress. By that time a minimum of 2 should pop, third gen with progress you just interrupted.
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I am seldom being tunneled myself. I don't mind when it happens though. Chases are more fun than playing quick-time-event on the generators.
As killer the only case where I would "tunnel" on purpose is if gens are almost gone and I need a kill only if to slow them down.
There is of course the involuntary case where survivors are (almost) clones. But I'd call that a self-inflicted wound.
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Not if you have the aforementioned perks. PR will stop one, you'll stop and kick another with Pop and Deadlock will further block more.
Also, Grim exists.
Like I said, even id you're chase is terrible it doesn't matter if you run gen slowdown.
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Examples of how weak tunneling is, how strong OTR is, how the new map has many loops that are beneficial to survivors, and how survivors can be gen powered in 10 minutes even if there is a slight mistake on their part.
Of course, it was a match where the survivor's skill in chasing shined, but it also proved that even if you make a mistake, a survivor will not be sacrificed in 5 gen just by being tunneled by the killer. Unless the survivor is playing around, the gen will definitely complete.
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That doesn't make it any less of a weak point to make.
I mean if they just made the "back in my day" quip implying I was some old fogey that would have been both apt and funny.
But to try and draw attention to accessibility in some kind of weak veneer of benevolence unrelated to the topic at hand was just on the nose.
But I suspected it wasn't genuine and it afforded an opportunity to pull some disingenuousness out of the bag. That made for some interesting and entertaining discussion, which was the topic at hand and why we are here.
It played out in a manner that I'm satisfied with and we've strayed far enough from the thread topic I have no wish to hijack it further.
"Villainy wears many masks, none so dangerous as the mask of virtue" - Sleepy Hollow.
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Nice! Now find many, many more examples we can watch. This one in the fields of tunnels is merely a good team outplaying the killer. If this is an argument to simply allow tunneling as is to continue, I think you might be disappointed.
Tunneling needs to be kneecapped and hard. Its not about viability or fair, its about making the game fun again. For both sides. Most killers who openly admit to tunneling express it is indeed boring. But its their only option to win? Then more practice is needed.
"If you hate tunneling, maybe you should practice more!" I do hate it, but Im happy to take the heat in a tunneling scenario. You'll get one kill, I guarantee it. But I cant say this for MOST of the player base. Thats why its an issue.
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So you're admitting that at least as long as the survivors are stronger than the killers, there's no need to fear the tunnels? That's fine then.
Even if the chase time were halved, judging from this example, there is no way it would end in 5gen. In particular, one game shows an example of completing 2 gen in 120 seconds, as I mentioned somewhere. There were some matches with the opposite pattern, but they bounced back from there and were able to complete gens all at once. This may seem unusual to you, but I want to make it clear that this situation can easily occur in matches between intermediate players, both Survivor and Killer, even if they are not advanced players. If not, the survivor is probably using the wrong method to win the game and neglecting to complete the gen. Based on my values, I wouldn't call such a person an intermediate person.
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To be honest, I think you're just used to me attacking what you say and read too much into it, which you know, fair enough.
I'll tell you full-stop what I meant and what I wanted you to get from it. Perhaps that will clear up this misunderstanding.
Think about what your words can be understood as and be careful choosing them; this argument sounds too close to what people said in regards to accessibility. Just because things were one way does not mean they should stay that way, things are allowed to be easier. The game has changed so much from when you or I began playing; there's so much to learn and so much to do, it can be overwhelming. A better tutorial would serve newer players well, if you can think of an argument that doesn't sound like you want people to suffer just for the sake of it, please say it.
That's about what I wanted you to get.
Post edited by Pulsar on0 -
But should a terrible chase get gens done in the first place? Or only not if a killer brings the top 5 forced meta perks, when there are 200+ other perks
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To me your “there was a time when games had no tutorials and not even any manuals and we all got along fine" - comment sounds like "it was worse in the past so you shouldn't complain about the supoptimal situation now".
I didn't say that you are disingenuous but ignoring the lack of tutorials in the skill discussion is. Generally I would agree that most dbd players are not that great but I do think that the lackluster tutorial and training options are part of the problem. My translator app translates disingenuous with a word that fits what I'm trying to say and with words that are a lot harsher (and imply mean intent) so it was probably not the right word to use in this context but I didn't found a different one quickly.
Again, I didn't want to call you disingenuous, but to me you seem not very understanding, because someone told you that the Tutorial options aren't good enough and you are like "Well, it is what it is, use some inconvenient workaround and stop complaining". Also, I don't think learning map layout was the main problem for the person you originally replied to, but I might be projecting there.
From my experience tutorials are included in newer games, I get that that was different in the past, but expectations change and coupled with the fact that the Devs already promised custom survivor only games I think I'm not unfair in my disappointment that they are still not available.
Also, I did start dbd before there was a tutorial. For me it was not a fun experience as Killer or Survivor, without more experienced friends I would have dropped the game.
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Um, yes? If you play bad, especially as Killer, there are consequences.
Those perks remove the consequences.
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Well, ofc? A strong team will not fear anything the killer throws at them. Thats why they're 'strong'. Now if you're trying to make it sound like Im saying anything but 'Tunneling is bad for the game*, its unfun, and is boring.", then I'd disagree. But sounds about right!
I agree with your example scenario as well. However, even if you did find a few more videos, this one in particular is in no way normal gameplay. This might be upper 20% of players? So again, it doesn't even apply to the 'Tunneling meta' discussion. People like quoting top 1%/5%/whatever%, but top 20 is a good chunk of players. Once you're up in that MMR with killer, tunneling is a bad choice right? Most teams can chew through that strat like nothing. Because their strong.
New players, SOLO'Q, and most intermediate players can't combat tunneling, and all thats said is "Its a viable strat.' 'Get gud.' Etc.
If a game is boring and unfun, why would people continue to play it? Thats where dbd is currently imo.
Maybe Im just not getting it. But I dont know why we want to ruin the fun of this game for each other. Even in the name of 'I want to win', its still just gross imo.
*: There are situations when the killer should begin tunneling. It is not at the start of the game outside of a tournament scene.
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And if the examples I bring up are ``special,'' then the many killer winning streak cases and NO tunnel camp winning streak examples provided on this forum are also ``special.'' In that case, all you have to do is aim for that specialness and play together. And if you can't see that OTR is so helpful and that the player would have escaped unless he dared to act like he was being chased by the killer, then you haven't learned anything from this video. You're overlooking the fact that unless the player refuses, there are many times when the player can escape from being tunneled.
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If you are taking one minute in a chase for every chase it means bhvr has held your hand so long you are in the wrong MMR!
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You forgot to insert 'skilled' in front of 'player'. A skilled player can get out of a tunneling situation. MOST players can't. And you can discount and ignore these things all you wish. Until a point is made that makes everyone happy, we'll just be going back and forth.
I'm for most of the players enjoying the game. Adamant tunnelers are not, they are here for the W. Nothing inherently wrong with that at all, we all play for different reasons. Doesn't mean we won't react accordingly. Tunneling makes the game unfun for both sides, as both sides have stated. It is simply the most optimal plan since MOST of the player base can't figure it out. And Im not discounting Solo'q. Its even harder, almost impossible to escape it in Solo'q.
Not your problem though. Enjoy your games :)
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If you say "skilled" is intermediate or above, then most people aren't even intermediate, right? If that's the case, I agree with you. The player in this video is special, but what he's doing is nothing special and is something that any player at intermediate level or above would do. Let's end the story.
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Nah, it would end with you mincing my words.
The player in this video is not special, he's just 'skilled.' What he's doing is skilled. Any player can accomplish what this video shows, with time. Time in this game grows skill through many different avenues.
It is something that any player at an
intermediate orhigher level can accomplish.Now we can end since I've cleared up the ending. <3
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Wow I loved the video thank you for sharing 😊 The little music at the end was so cute and funny lol 😂☺️
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That's a very fair assessment so allow me to clarify further the point on tutorials.
I'm not saying you can't ask for a tutorial or even demand one, and a limited one already exists in game that demonstrates the mechanics.
What you are asking for though is survivor mode in customs for the purpose of practice, but custom games don't really exist for practice alone, your intent to use it that way is just one aspect.
So if demanding custom games for the purpose of learning map layout from a survivor perspective then you are likely to wait for it because its not really a priority thing in terms of playing the game.
So here are the tools available to use in the game's current state. I'd recommend trying those in the absence of exactly what was being asked for.
There is no discussion of skill, accessibility options or half the things people wanted to read into the point made which was the fact that what you have to work with is limited. So by all means ask for survivor custom games, but if you want to learn map layout then load into a custom game as killer and walk around the maps freely, that's the option you have.
In terms of wanting greater tutorial options, then games have worked for a long time without that so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.
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Basically killers won't pick on someone their own size
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You thought about that really carefully.
Firstly dude check your ego, it has nothing to do with you. If someone comments with a questionable take I may give my take on it.
Secondly, even in light of your clarification my point hasn't changed. Playable tutorials while helpful aren't necessary for a game to be playable.
All the things you say here are true it makes thing easier, its more new player friendly and its ok for things to change I never said it any of these things aren't true or aren't valuable.
As far as I can see you took the single line of dialogue "we used to have no tutorials and got along fine" without really reading any of the preface that lead up to it and then just ran with that as a whole topic.
Tell me are you a read the headline and react person or did you read the whole thing and formulate an opinion?
Because all the points you raise here are fine but none are really relevant to what was being discussed and then you heap on the accessibility options as a weakly associated side note and what we have is a reaction based on the headline and not the content.
In the words or Ricky Gervais "you should have left it" but it turned into a interesting little sideshow and has come full circle so lets not hijack this thread any longer.
To keep it on topic, in response just to the title in this case as I've already previously discussed the topic here, I do believe "tunneling" to be bit overblown.
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We've certainly had our vehement disagreements, it would not be unreasonable for you to assume things in a negative manner. My apologies if that isn't the case, even subconsciously.
From the perspective of someone who has been playing for a significant amount of time? Perhaps that's true. For a brand-new player? I think a tutorial is vital to their experience; people don't have unlimited time, as I'm sure you know. It is difficult to dedicate hundreds of hours to learning DBD when the game can be very miserable when you don't understand it. Perhaps you should ask some newer players for their opinions; I hardly think either of us are particularly qualified in that regard lol.
I think it greatly depends on what you mean by overblown, which I can't recall if the OP ever defined.
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No worries it's never personal its just discussion. Its a gaming forum its not worth getting personal over.
I'll happily agree tutorials make things easier but how vital it is to the experience is up for debate. There is a disconnect between something being hard and something being miserable. Just because its hard doesn't make it miserable.
There is a tutorial already its mostly still the same as it always been... mostly. How helpful it is eh its got the base mechanics and some tips.
What the poster was asking for was survivor custom mode so they could wander the maps and learn the layout, well you can do that as killer and it isn't that different. Plus if able to load into custom games as survivor then its likely a bot killer is gonna be on your butt the whole game so its not like you have much license to wander around and look anyway.
If 3rd person view is needed (I don't know migraines or motion sickness being a legitimate reason for that I guess) there really isn't an option for you which does kinda suck. There are other options to help with those thigs though FOV slider, screen overlays so its not all on BHVR's head to attenuate that problem.
The ability to load into a custom as just a solo survivor, no killer, no team would be worth while but its not exactly vital to the game and probably a very low priority. So as I always said we work with the tools we have.
Best bet would be find a buddy to load into a custom game with you as killer and then wander the map together and learn the layouts. Bit of simple problem solving to work with the tools we have.
I completely accept that sometimes people don't want solutions they just want to complain. I find complaints work best when they lead to solutions.
As for the OP, the post defines what they see as "acceptable tunneling" and it covers a lot of what people describe as "tunneling". So one could argue that if you can rationalize "tunneling" acceptably and a lot of peoples experience of tunneling falls under that, then the furor surrounding it is largely overblown.
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thank you for having interest!
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Being hard doesn't necessarily equate to being miserable, no. But having vital information withheld can make it feel like you're set-up to fail.
I think there's a difference. Do I understand why Killers tunnel? Yes, of course. Does that really matter in the moment and in my experience? No, not really. It can be completely rational to tunnel but it can still feel bad for the individual being removed from competition.
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But what information is being withheld as it were. The tutorial goes over all the basic mechanics and the load screen has relevant tool tips. Nothing is being withheld unless you expect to have the entire game spoon fed to you rather than learning through experience.
Its an elimination game, there are lots of elimination games out there where the goal is to avoid elimination. If someone feels bad when they get eliminated maybe they shouldn't play elimination games. Seriously I can't stress this enough, DBD makes no allusions about what happens if you get caught the goal is to avoid that.
The same goes for any game setting where people get upset over mechanics.
If you're gonna dice rage don't play games with dice, it just spoils the fun for those who don't dice rage.
If you're gonna throw the controller when you get killed then you need to put down the controller before you break your stuff like a fool. That's all it is foolish behaviour looking for an excuse to legitimize itself.
Those are extreme examples but my point is that it shouldn't feel bad to extent it ruins the game to be eliminated because being eliminated is part of the game. If that's the case then DBD isn't the game for you. (I mean you collectively not specifically you).
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Facts! I loaded in with you. Mound ormond. I got tunneled out 1,2,3. lol.
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Yes, because if you play against 4 of yourself you will lose. That says something about the balance don't you think?
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So if you run 0 gen defence perks, and generators get repaired in 3-4 minutes, you played bad?
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Are you talking about survivor or killer PoV?
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What I hate most about it is that it just unnecessary most of the time, especially in solo. But if we're talking about mitigating risk and taking the easiest path to a win, tunneling the first hooked surv is your best bet.
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If you've been running them and a meta Killer and have carries yourself up to an MMR where Survivors can deal with it; then what do you expect will happen when you take it off?
That's the issue right now. A LOT of Killers got very used to Eruption COB and now can't do anything except stack slowdown because they got boosted to way outside their skill.
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And that's what will be happening with tunneling. I'm sure this has been said of course. But history often repeats itself instead of being learned from.
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Yeah they probably tabled the idea bc they realized if they release a killer bot then a large majority of survivors probably wouldn’t join public matches anymore with the way things are going. They would be insane to do so.
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From the killer pov if it takes you a minute to down someone something is very wrong and its 99% a skill issue. The problem is when killers start playing its easy to win they raise in mmr easily. Then survivors get a little better and instead of trying to get better at killer they just tunnel because its the easiest thing to do and takes no skill they gain even more mmr. Then they finally get in to an mmr where tunneling doesn't work anymore and then they start blaming all types of other things gens go to quick blah blah blah.... The problem is tunneling held your hand so long you never got good at killer or how to create pressure or how to get in a proper chase and now you are getting pub-stomped and blaming swf and all types of other things.
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A point that is never mentioned is those killers who used perks (not skill) to boost themselves now expect that this will continue to work. They’re often the loudest, most abrasive voices in these forums and elsewhere. They don’t really want to get better; they want and expect a trump card—in the form of great perks for killers and a lack of good perks, for survivors—to see them through their matches. Like Erupt-Over-Brine.
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Its already happening with tunneling its carrying killers to high mmr but really they suck at killer then complain when tunneling doesn't work. Then its SB and lithe, and genrushing they complain about when really its just they lack skill cause of a crutch stradegy that stops working. A good killer can lay down enough gen pressure not to tunnel and get chases over quickly.
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Played today with 2 less experienced people. They got tunneled out every single round. It was so much fun, they could not wait to press the uninstall button. Both of them.
BHVR, people are sick of tunneling and overpowered killers. I can barley convince anybody to play your game for longer then an hour.
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Im both glad and very sad Im not the only one with this problem with friends :(
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Killers stomp good survivors all the time. Apparently the game is sitting at a 60/40 win rate in the killers favor. What you are trying to throw out as average is facing a 4 man swf with 1000000 collective hours in the game that are not in every match you play. There is also the rng factor to put in which sets the game up heavily before it even starts.
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It's not the tunnel's fault but their inexperience. And by taking the initiative and taking on the first chase, a talented survivor will be able to greatly reduce the burden of tunneling for other survivors.
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You seem to confuse killrate with winrate. Game has a 60% KILL RATE
60% killrate can be two 4k's + EIGHT 2k's. Thats exactly a 60% killrate and a 20% winrate.
Don't know why you see that as a problem, 2 outing 8 games in a row with a killer drawing 8 times in a row
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It seems like you expect nearly every game to be a 4k stomp fest for killers. Also there is no proof that this is how things play out. Killers can be winning a lot more than you give them credit for and they seem to be if they are killing at an above average rate. There has to be a way to survive the game otherwise it dies off from being too one sided. It's not as big of a problem as you are making it out to be. It's just a problem for you maybe.
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I'm just trying to tell you that BHVR stats are misleading and obviously cherry picked. Aiming for 60% killrate at all MMR levels won't be balanced at all. New survivors get 4k'd all the time, because they don't use any resources they just run in a straight line. Killers at low level are very strong. But for every 4k someone else has to get a 1k to get a 62,5% killrate. (100+25= 125:2= 62,5% killrate)
So if every new player 4k's, a high mmr player can 1k every match, stats will still show a 62,5% killrate. Which means the game is balanced right?
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I dont want to sound confrontional but...
This sounds a lot like how survivors are with DH, BT and especially DS. Except the word "basekit" is used more often than when killers complain.
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I can’t recall the last time anyone publicly made a statement about DH or BT. No one seems to run BT anymore (do you mean the basekit feature?) and both sides seem mostly comfortable with DH now. DS, the anti-tunnel perk, was unjustifiably nerfed. But the difference at least between BT/DS & Erupt-Over-Brine is that for survivors, those perks allow gameplay. For killers, those perks prevent gameplay. Anything survivors have received basekit is a byproduct of killer mains preventing survivors from playing the game. So really killers only have themselves to blame for the basekit features survivors have received. But none of this says anything about the basekit features/perks killers also received in 6.1.0, now does it?
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