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Why are SWF mains so dead set against Killers knowing they are up against premades?
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Yup yup. I'm after a more carrot approach rather than the ban & nurf stick.
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Pretty sure SWF was intended from the beginning.
Iirc, they were working on both KYF and SWF but could only get one done prior to launch. People voted and KYF won, but both were in development and intended to be in the game.
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The game is specifically designed with no communication in mind. SWF being planned from the start was necessary, as evidenced by the lobby shopping that happened in the short time before its introduction in 1.0.3 kinda proved. If comms were intended, there would have at least been some consideration to adding comms to the game, either text/voice/both, but its always a stanch NO.
SWF was always intended to be in the game, but it was never the intended target for balancing the game. its a 1v1v1v1v1 after all apparently.
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I disagree. Their original intent, and I believe is still their intent, is DBD is at heart a party game, not a comp game. If this is taken into account, everything makes sense. But some people refuse to believe dbd isn't a party game, and it becomes their pvp lifeblood. Thats when bias and issues start up.
Comms aren't coming to the game. They also aren't leaving. As a company, it would be a bad move if they removed the ability, which is also pretty impossible. Im amazed its still an issue talking point.
Also, I'm starting to think comm SWFs are healthy for the game. Top killers need that potent team to give them their challenge. Stupidly small percentage of the players right? So probably not a big deal. But here we are.
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I also agree that its more intended to be a party game than a competitive game, but I'm going off of the consistency to their design logic and comments that they've made regarding their balance philosophy. My stance has zero to do with any perspective of them to ban third party comms, so I don't know where the "leaving" comes from.
As for the last comment, I disagree. There have been multiple times in the past (most notibly CoH and OoO) where the presence of SWF has made aspects in the game more difficult to balance and easier to produce oversights. Again, I'm not arguing it should be removed or even that every SWF is cracked or anything like that. My argument is solely that there is an advantage present, regardless of how well they do(n't) utilize it. My endorsement was for an idea that was a non-gameplay altering way of rewarding solo players on both sides for playing alongside/against the people who enjoy their potential benefits.
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Understood!
The 'leaving' bit was just to be thorough on the specific thought: Comms are here and not going anywhere. Mostly for others reading I suppose :)
Those spots in the past regarding swf and perks is exactly what you're saying: BHVR and perk interaction regarding SWFs. Should they account for SWFs in their game design?
......Thats a damn good question I think Ill need to think on.
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Just a little humble brag here: I had this game not 5min ago and it had all the ingredients for a bad match in it: high level prestiges - check, dedicated flashlight player - check, dedicated sabo player - check ... and yet they went all down to greed to use all their abilities and the 4th survivor died on the hook at 3:45min. What a speed run, which I had streamed it.
I suffered a lot at the hands of premade bully squads, but sometimes they just as easily mess up. NGL, seeing such a lobby gives me that short itch to dodge, but in the end its better to rise to the challenge and maybe learn some new tricks. I second this: show who was in a SWF after the game, hide prestiges and names, but maybe give the icons some different tints, so that the killer has some means to distinguish between different survivors, if they happend to all play the same one.
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I think, at this point, the game probably couldn't handle a VC system.
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Yeah SWF was always intended, and it's use varies greatly by region.
But I think it's safe to say they underestimated the effects of comms with long term very good players.
Post edited by JPLongstreet on1 -
SWF was always intended to be in the game, but it was never the intended target for balancing the game. its a 1v1v1v1v1 after all apparently.Not related to the merits of whether SWFs, should be shown or not, but I think the above is incorrect.
I think many people believe that BHVR has a single target for how they balance the game (which would be very reasonable). I think BHVR's intent is much more to balance around multiple aspects - the players who play for themselves, the SWFs, the sweats, high mmr, mid mmr, low mmr, etc. They aren't looking to make sure things are completely fair in any of those tiers, so long as there isn't something that completely breaks the game at any tier.
This is why the balancing can sometimes feel like a muddled mess, but potentially might also be why the game has had such longevity.
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The funniest thing is that killers say swf is god mode and then they dont even escape 50% of the time. Its just killers who suck and hard tunnel that get to an mmr where it doesn't work anymore and they cry all day about it. The problem isn't the swf the problem is that you just aren't that good.
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So you're saying that the devs are morons and didn't know that people on Xbox and PlayStation had party chat or people on pc had discord and team speak? Pretty sure they were like hmmm we don't need to add chat in game because there's different ways they can do that already lets put our resources to making the game better instead.
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I think Killers knowing SWF status before the match starts is only ok if Survivors know which Killer they are facing before the match starts. Both will cause a mild increase in match quality, at the cost of massive amounts of lobby dodging.
The only unique flaw to knowing which Killer you are playing against is that stealth Killers (which are my favorite to play) will be nerfed massively as a result.
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No? I honestly don't know how you got that from what I posted. I even literally said in the post you quoted that
SWF being planned from the start was necessaryAlso why are you trying to make me out to be aggressive toward the devs? or that making any type of ingame communication would somehow prohibit them from "making the game better instead"?
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Balancing the game is certainly a tricky subject, and you could very well be right that they don't have a single target but rather multiple in tandem to account for various tiers, but their actions regarding particularly broken cases has given the impression that they do at least want certain extremes to be hemmed in (again, CoH and OoO being prime examples.)
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"If comms were intended, there would have at least been some consideration to adding comms to the game, either text/voice/both, but its always a stanch NO."
They are intended they just know that they don't have to make it mandatory to have them because if you want to use them they have apps and chat for that. Why waste time adding it in when you can already do it without them having to do all that extra stuff. The devs know this that's why I'm asking if you think they are morons or something. Its like hey lets spend thousands of dollars we could use for something else (because development time - money) implementing comms when they already can do it for free if they want. Its why they still wont add it why why add it they have a whole discord for that with literal SWF channels multiple channels.
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if they are intended, then why are there so many info perks in the game? why is there no baseline communication (see: not voice) beyond pointing and beckoning? Why have the devs made the famous 1v1v1v1v1 comment?
As for "why add it?", did you ever consider pc players may not be discord friends with their teammates (or even on discord at all?) Ditto for consle players with their platform"s friend system, noted separately since crossplay wasn't added until later on?
Post edited by BoxGhost on1 -
Because some people don't have mics. I mean its really easy to just message them and them meet up on discord.
Post edited by BoxGhost on0 -
Believe it or not, "immersion" used to influence the game's design. Early DBD was a pretty different game to today.
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Yea I know I've been playing since myers. I still had comms.
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I imagine the info & aura perks are primarily for those not on comms, and a few are useful even on comms.
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But they are info that comms can share for free, effectively giving them free perk slots. Maybe a better question would be why it took so long for the HUD info update?
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I'd blame that length of time on their struggles with their own coding over the years.
You are right that many perks are free for those on comms. The stealth killers are definitely hurt by it, and some builds like using hexes and Knockout etc.
But most SWF never fully utilize those comms to anywhere near their full potential, not like the super sweats can. The average surv teams aren't calling out grid clock locations and the like to each other.
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They didn't want the information now on the hud to be given out for free, though. It goes entirely against their immersion focus in the early days of the game. I also think that the code is only so much of an excuse, since they had a full conversion to C++ and the engine updates (which would have been a perfect time.)
And I agree that most SWFs don't utilize what they have available to them, thats why I liked the post game suggestion. I guess we kinda got a little off topic with the intent discussion.
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I think the better solution is limiting party size to 3. This would allow more mixing and matching of skill levels and solo que would be better because you would more often be joining a 3 person swf rather than all randoms. I think tunneling would be too be further addressed for this to work well but overall would be a very healthy change to the game.
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Well...first, I'm lowkey...OK highkey offended that it sounds like "bully squad" seems to be grouping in all SWF teams. I play in a SWF, and we're not bullies. Second, let's be honest, unless the SWF members are all rocking names that are CLEARLY associated with each other, the only way a killer is even going to know they are going up against a SWF is if they stream snipe before the match starts. Which I personally think is bad form. Like most game developers think and are against, and like most streaming platforms are against and even hand out bans for. But BHVR informed me via email that they are ok with stream sniping and that its not against any rrule. Makes me wonder why the killer gets to be gatekept and secret. Can you imagine how the game would go if survivors could prepare for a Legion in advance lol. I personally like being surprised with who the killer is. It's a challenge and helps make the game scary. I'm sure killer mains can handle a challenge too. Hide player names until after the match, or make it penalty to back out of lobbies. For both survivors and killers. And before someone says there's a feature to hide names, as a Twitch streamer, I want my name to show so that the Randoms I play with and even the killer, can come by AFTER the match and chat it up. So, just like we can't see the killer name until the match is over, give survivors the same protection. Then maybe lobby dodging will stop.
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If you're advocating for a SWF notification in the pre-match lobby, I would be against it as well.
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Take that with a grain of salt. That graph doesn't give nearly enough info to say what factors are included there.
As to OP, I understand why premades aren't shown in match lobby, but I'd like to see it in the post match lobby. I want to know if I was stomped by a sweaty premade, or really good solo players.
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Tbh, if you go by certain cosmetics/character names/all 4 people being ready with flashlights/every survivor having the exact same character and cosmetic, there are so many things that are a dead SWF group giveaway. It really isn't too hard to dodge obvious SWFs. I do it all the time and I will continue to do it until we can't..lmao. If BHVR was smart, they'd make it to where Survivors appear in the Killer lobby with default outfits, no prestige, no items in hand just to keep it secret but alas they haven't.
The way it is currently. Killer has most of the power in the pre lobby of the game, whereas SWFs have the most power in the actual game. Pretty funny when you think about it. So remember Killer players...if you look at the group of Survivors standing by the campfire and you have a gut feeling that their a SWF, just bail. Leave until you see a bunch of amateurs standing there. Whatever works. xD
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I misread the comment so I edited it lol Its obvious for the most part when they're a 4 man
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Yeah slightly off topic, but still a useful connected discussion. And very civil between us! 🙂
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You have one of the best forum usernames I've seen in a while! Love it!! 😀
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I hope this will not hurt anyone.
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Remember when the Survivors read gamefiles or logs to check the Killer in the lobby?
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I missed out on that somehow, prolly because I'm on Xbox.
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Come back when you have a response that isn't a strawman.
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Im happy you're not in the group who tell survivors to get better !
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Incommunication is a fundamental part of this game. Without it, many perks or killers (such as stealth killers) are meaningless. In every other game there is no problem in showing when you are playing a premade.
If playing in SWF has no advantage, then all changes to help SoloQ should be reverted.
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What's the point in lobby dodging anyway? If you don't play against good teams you won't get better at the game. Most bully squads kinda suck anyway. They're predictable so just choose a few perks to counter & play sweaty from the get go. Most of the time they crumble after a few downs & hooks when they realise they can't bully you. I play with a lot of aura and status effect perks and early pressure is your best friend v teams like this.
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That's wishful thinking if you think they'd change the argument from SWF op to "I should examine what I'm doing wrong". It's just going to turn into Survivor OP got beat by 4 solos proof survivors are op, as if their gameplay can be called into question, ever. I think you highly under-estimate human ego. It would be nice though if some self-reflection was involved.
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