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Sable Ward Perks Feedback
Comments
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If future invocations (frankly, I hope this is the first and last we ever see of this mechanic) are anything like Weaving Spiders, then you’ve nothing to worry about as a killer main.
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Her invocation perk is like No Mither with a twist - extra, extra damaging to the team. It takes too much time and risk for a miniscule benefit.
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Need to fix that you don't actually have to be in the basement for the heal. They need only be on the stairs, you know, where if basement is in killer shack, they have an amazing window and a god pallet nearby which makes the whole "risk" completely voided?
On top of that, BHVR was aware that how someone could just undo any damage by going to a certain spot on the map was very broken (original circle of healing). It just erases killer pressure. Now they add this perk in and just create the old problem again...a survivor with the perk just has to go to one spot on the map and can self heal. At the very least, it should be 50% healspeed. 70% is incredibly fast for a self heal.
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To be fair, while Strength in Shadows is really good, it's nowhere close to old CoH for three major reasons.
- You don't control where the spot you have to run to is,
- It only affects you and isn't teamwide for one perk slot,
- Most importantly, it doesn't stack with medkits, and even if it did medkits aren't OP anymore like they used to be.
It's much more equivalent to if CoH was ran on its own and that nobody else benefited from throughout the whole match, which was similarly good but not OP- and you still controlled where it went, so it still would've been stronger than SiS.
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keep in mind though that SiS is not broadcasted to the killer - CoH was and still is. You can easily erase all pressure on you at will, and the killer will be none the wiser unless he stops pressuring gens and stops chasing people just to check you MIGHT be happening to heal in basement. With CoH, the killer instantly knows there's a boon in play, and there's only so many places it could be. It might not be as strong as old CoH, but it's incredibly close to it.
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That's an upside, sure, but the biggest parts of old CoH still aren't present. It only affects you, but most importantly, the thing that actually made CoH overpowered is impossible from two angles when it comes to SiS.
You can't use SiS to make medkits absurdly powerful because it doesn't stack with medkits to begin with and those medkits aren't nearly as powerful to begin with.
As to the erasing all the killer's pressure, that's not true. Even with Botany the heal isn't that fast, and factoring in the travel time, you as the killer get basically what you want from leaving a survivor injured: they're off generators to heal, and they're not interfering with your other chases either. At worst, it shortens your window to make that injury pressure, by occupying multiple other survivors, but healing perks are supposed to do that and I don't think this one's unbalanced.
(Brief pedantic nitpick as an aside, you don't pressure generators, you pressure survivors.)
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lol fair, I meant pressure survivors - it's late and I'm tired.
I've been running SiS as survivor. That heal is incredibly fast. Only takes a few seconds then I'm back on my feet. Even without any medkit help, it is extremely fast. Maybe it's bugged?
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It's not 'a few seconds'.
The perk takes about 22.8 seconds just for the heal, and that doesn't include any travel time to or from the basement.
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regarding spiders, it takes ages but ultimately its almost worth it: if it were a little more % taken off each gen like 20, it might be okay but i only really use wicked and strength in the shadows, mainly just to goof with killers and make the game a little less tense lol :)
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Hmm, must be bugged then. Took about 10 seconds for me last night. I'll retest tonight.
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I mean it's faster than a survivor healing you if you combine it with Botany Knowledge so maybe you had that equipped as well.
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Good theory, but no, Sir. Only healing related perk I had was SiS.
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Invocation Weaving spiders: I think a great way to buff this to somewhat make it seem worth the risk, make grunts of pain either silent or much quieter, also, giving them the ability to see Gens and/or being able to pick themselves up like no mither, because as it stands, the perk is useless, being injured for the remainder of the game doesn't offer a true reward even in skilled swfs.
Hell, even granting a boost in running speed like made for this would make more interesting plays
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Wicked: This is too reliant on survivors being hooked in the basement, a buff I would suggest is making it so even if you're second stage; if you are hooked in the basement: you gain a 100% chance to get yourself off hook.
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Geez no. This perk has become a staple of my build and needs no changes (unless bhvr want to give me even longer wallhacks on the killer). It is really easy to bait or even outright force a basement hook. A self unhook is a huge pressure loss for killer and that should be situational. And tbh even without the self unhook the aura reading is really, really solid, especially with an anti-tunnel/nuisance hit tank build. The perk's very existence also acts as a deterrent for basement hooks. Probably my favourite perk released since Plot Twist.
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It would be interesting if Boon: Dark Theory was reworked into an Invocation, giving 3% Haste when completed.
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It still wouldn‘t be worth it if it makes you broken and takes 120s for just 3%.
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Worth it or not, we shouldn't be messing with passive speed, have we not learned that lesson already.
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The speed of MFT wasn‘t too strong. They should have just removed the endurance part of it and buff the anti exhaustion perks.
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I am glad it only took maybe a day or two for close to no one to run that basement killer perk Weaving Spiders. Other than in a very coordinated team that is going for a content piece that perk is not worth it.
I am hoping for a good balance to be done to it as I do like the concept. If the risk and reward are corrected it would be great. Broken until hooked was a suggestion I saw that seems fitting. You could also have them be u see the old sloppy butcher permanently through the match as well to compensate.
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Weaving spiders is so beyond bad with time wasted and such a massive debuff it's funny how you could even consider reducing the charges from 15 to 10 in the first place. Also with the massive amounts of aura reading and the fact that there's perks to make survivors scream how come there isnt any protection from them baked into her perks?
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Honestly, weaving spiders has very little to offer. Yeah sure, -10 off gens + it can't be undone but for the amount of time you spend invoking it, you could have done 1 entire generator and the fact that it regresses when interrupted is a crock of doodoo. Not only that, but you're permanently broken? It would be a great perk if you reduced the amount of time it took to do it, and made the broken status only last for like.. 60 seconds. It's so silly to waste that time invoking it, when you honestly could have gotten so much stuff done instead. It's a cool concept but it's not worth the time it takes to use it. Thumbs down.
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Wicked's main purpose is the 20 second aura reading from being unhooked. Which is a good effect that really helps you not just run into the killer immediately off hook.
The basement unhook effect is a nice little bonus, but I wouldn't run Wicked for the basement unhook.
It's like Soul Guard. You don't run Soul Guard for the unbreakable part of the perk, but it's a nice bonus if it comes up.
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So by that token it's just another useless perk to add to the pile. Cool.
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Just because you personally cant get use from a perk doesn't make the perk useless.
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Wicked is an insane perk. Survivors fall into the basement on purpose to unhook themselves now. They run to the most DANGEROUS place for survivor specifically to jump off the hook. And they get a 15% speed and 15 seconds endurance and can run whatever they want after it, just remember that. And the killer may not be able to hang survivor on other hook, it can be too far from the basement or other survivors can take hits for the killer cannot carry surv on the other hook. And developers are just encourage it. It's so dumb. In other words now I have no right to hang a survivor in the basement when I play as a killer, that's right, behaviour? Now it turns out that the game is taking this opportunity away from me. Do our developers think that such survivor possibilities are honest and fair?
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Yes it does
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Please give an icon to Wicked, so your teammates now you have it and don't come to the basement.
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a few perks need this kind of qol tbh, deli and plot twist should also give an alternative colour aura/notifcation
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Love Wicked and Strength in shadows as solo survivor I think they are strong and fun and also make basement more home like. There is finally a reason to visit basement and enjoy the peace and quiet down there.
Third perk is weak and takes too long time.
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After playing against Strength in Shadows for a few weeks, I've been unable to adapt to the perk. It's frankly incredibly strong, and each player that runs the perk allows my pressure as killer to snowball away.
Especially when combined with Botany Knowledge, Desperate Measures and other heal speed-increasing perks, being able to self-heal without a medkit in less than 15 seconds is insane.
Even when I know players are running Strength in Shadows, making the trek all the way over to the basement as Killer is such an incredible time-waster that it's not worth it just to catch one healing survivor near no generators, especially towards late game.
Survivors swarm generators like flies, and every time I injure one they just flee away to the basement to heal up and if I follow them I lose the generators, but they're guaranteed a quick 30-second heal to reset the process. This cycle is incredibly stressful to play against.
This also enables especially altruistic teams to take advantage of the self-heal speed, allowing one person to body block and take hits for others and very rapidly healing by themselves while 2 other players remain on generators (because another one isn't needed to heal, allowing twice the progress to be made on gens while one heals themselves alone). I've been having numerous games where the same player is even able to body block against me multiple times in one chase due to the sheer speed Strength in Shadows allows them to heal.
Nobody is attributing stressful games to the perk right now I think because it's not as immediately apparent when it's being used as Boons, which make map-wide audio cues when they are in play.
However, Strength in Shadows cannot be as fast as it is: it's creating a level of stress playing as killer that I've only had matched by the first several versions of Circle of Healing, all the troublesome versions of Dead Hard, and the 6 months Made For This was problematic.
Post edited by NotJared on3 -
From playing with it as the survivor I can also agree and I frankly don't understand why I am not seeing it much with how completely free and strong it is, especially when paired with altruistic plays like bodyblocking/ftp+buckle etc. At the very least the perk needs to be changed so you actually need to be in basement (not a toe into steps) and it is more of a risk. Though even then I think it would still be a problem for the same reasons old CoH was.
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Weaving spiders is basically a killer perk. It gets survivors to go to the basement for easy hooks, the 2 minute action survivors have to do is interruptible, has more than -50% time spent to productivity conversion and gives a survivor permanent broken.
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I feel like Weaving Spiders should have a regression system and at least a second place to complete the ritual, so that the perk is just situational enought to be actually considered.
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I tried it for a few days then dropped it. It came in handy for me in endgame if i happened to make it til then, as chances are I wouldn't have anyone to heal me then. But otherwise I wasn't getting much value from it. In a game where seconds count, I couldn't justify running to basement constantly to heal. I'd be throwing games if i did. Better off running Botany + Self Care to heal up anywhere if i didnt want to play injured.
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I used sable wards invocation in a single match and that match my entire team gave up the match. I think something needs to change about the perk. Because this cannot be a rare occurrence if this happens as soon as I start the invocation and in the very first match I used it on!
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Nothing is wrong with sable able to heal at 70% and stacking with other healing speeds. Also, invocations are not overpowered stop trying to impose more nerfs to it. It got more nerfs than buffs they already took away 5 charges and made it not be able to be used with endurance so now leave it alone. If it gets another nerf it’ll need to be reworked because it’s already weak asf rn. It’s already bad rn. We don’t need them to continue to touch perks that don’t need to be touched.
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Her healing perk may be interesting, but none are worth a perk slot
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I have an idea on how to improve this invocation and any other incoming. The idea of removing charges on the generator is really interesting but IMO it would be better if the side effect would be something that affects those generators. I think this particular effect of no mither seems really harsh and it would be better if the perk side effect gave something towards the generators. This side effect we have now encourages running no mither and run to basement immediately or go there as the last resort.
I prepared a fanmade invocation for healing and the side effect is the aura reveal for the killer when healthy. So It would be better to have a very rewarding effect but in exchange you get a nerf that is indirect towards this effect that has something in common but is not a weak one.
So let's say this invocation removes charges. So the side effect could have a side effect related to the generators. Here's some suggestions:
- How about a bigger penalty for missing skillchecks?
- Faster regression after kicking it? Or more regression instantly upon kicking it?
- No great skillchecks?
- Not possible to cooperate on the same generator?
- Aura of the generator with the most progress for the killer?
- Maybe survivor suffers upon completing the generator?
- If the invocation benefits towards generators, maybe a nerf for endgame?
It can be anything, or maybe you have further suggestions here. Slow repair generator does not fit here at all since what you want is generator done quickly.
To finish it off, The better idea for invocations could be give the rewarding effects and the side effects that have nothing, or at most, very little in common with some other perks to easily counter it but have a lot in common with those rewarding effects.
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The issue is if your running all the way to basement to get a heal off, your wasting a lot of time when you could be doing generators. Bringing a medkit is much more viable, I think it's fine the way it is.
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Wicked - Solid anti-tunnel/information perk, the 20 second aura reading is great for escaping the area where you've been hooked and keeping track of where the killer is, and the basement unhook part is quite nice. Solid 8/10 perk.
Strength in Shadows - Niche healing perk that gets overshadowed by medkits, and other healing perks. Though, still a good choice, 70% is quite quick, compared to Self Cares 35% healing speed, though what brings it down is that you have to go to the basement in order to heal, which can be time wasting when you can again just use a medkit, or do generators. Overall the perk isn't the best but still gets the job done. 6/10 perk.
Invocation: Weaving Spiders - Cool concept but awful in execution, I like the idea of high risk, high reward type perks. But this one ain't it, the part that kills the perk instantly is that you spend two whole minutes doing the 'ritual', then after you become injured all game, the reward is a brand new part on all generators (10%). Terrible perk, just do generators instead, the reward is not worth it at all, the downsides kill the perk. 1/10 perk.
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Her perks are pretty bad. They have synergy with each other, obviously, but even then there's still no reason to ever want to run them over any even vaguely meta build. They also don't really have much synergy with existing perks, but you could just slot in an exhaustion perk I guess.
The Invocation takes far too long for it's effect, not to mention being Broken for the rest of the match AND blocked gens not even getting the BNP added. That said, if a much stronger Invocation comes out eventually, and assuming they'll work like boons, it may be worthwhile bringing Weaving Spiders along with an actual good Invocation, similar to back when CoH was really strong, it wasn't as bad bringing the weaker boons. Currently though it's just too weak. Buffing it however could result in it being awful to play against so I dunno, I just don't think an effect like that should be ingame at all.
The Heal-In-Basement is not terrible, but it's basically a slightly faster Self-Care but you have to run to the basement any time you wanna heal, which will often negate the time saved. Self-Care isn't a great perk but I'd say it's probably better than Sable's. Also if the killer realises you have it and checks basement they're pretty much gurenteed a hit, which will mean a down if you didn't finish your heal in time.
The Unhook-in-Basement is decent but if you're NOT running her other perks and spending time in basement a lot, it's pretty rare the killer will hook you there. If you run right towards basement and loop around it whenever you're in chase, the killer will likely guess you have it and just hook you somewhere else. Also with Pain Res being as popular as it is, killers have even LESS reason to ever hook in basement. While Deli has a requirement, it's still FAAAAR more likely to actually get good value than Sable's perk.
Basically they're not that good, and the slightly better non-invocation ones have existing perks that are outright better, or at best just as good. Yes I didn't get into the killer aura aspect but that's not reeeeally likely to get nearly enough value to lift the perks all that much, especially in solo queue.
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