Is this an issue?
- Survivor gets rescued off a hook.
- Killer decides to go for the unhooker since he doesn't want to tunnel.
- The unhooked person then uses OTR or the base Endurance mechanic to body block 1 hit for them.
Killer then has 2 options. Continue chasing the unhooker or now target the unhooked who abused the "anti tunnel" mechanic to body block.
If he chooses to now target the unhooked that body blocked he has to get a 2nd hit on them. Then he eats a DS (now getting buffed) to the face. To then have to chase him for a 3rd hit, which now eats him a DH. To now chase him again for a 4th hit for the actual down.
Note if we choose to instead continue going after the unhooker, the unhooked person still body blocks all these attempts to force this above interaction regardless. So we have the same result.
Now we may say, let's ignore all this by just forgetting them both and go just randomly check the remaining gens to look for someone else. Except that unhooked is still following you and doing the same thing.
Hey though, just down him and leave him there! Except you still wasted 2 hits just to get him there in the first place from him body blocking you and he has Unbreakable for that not to matter.
I am not saying we shouldn't have anti tunnel mechanics, I like those. I'd even improve them. My point here is simply that would y'all agree that we could/should design the anti tunnel mechanics in a way that also prevents them from being abusable for their unintended purpose? I intentionally try not to tunnel, like going out of my way, and I am still getting hit with consecutive OTR, DS, just the base kit Endurance, as they are very regularly forced in my face. Maybe this is rarer at lower mmr's, but this is extremely regular in my games.
Thoughts?
Comments
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Stating the worse case scenario can make literally anything seem OP.
If someone is running OTR/DS/DH/UB that means they have no gen perks or items not to mention, UB and DS work once per trial, I don't see why this is a problem.
I also dislike the notion that DH is guaranteed or that the killer doesn't have a power to use or that every hook is in a tight corridor.
Even if the survivor does all of this in the scenario you listed, for the rest of the trial they have two perks, that's more than a fair tradeoff.
And if you're implying that the game is lost after this, which would only be the case in high MMR, then it can also be assumed that you are playing Nurse/Blight with a meta load-out as well, in which this scenario is not very significant as S-tier killers don't care.
9 -
"If someone is running OTR/DS/DH/UB that means they have no gen perks or
items not to mention, UB and DS work once per trial, I don't see why
this is a problem. "I don't agree with this at all. Most high mmr matches the entire groups are running that type of build. The only way those groups lose is through some tunneling/slugging combination and those perks counter all those situations. Survivors are not perk dependent like killers are. As survivor you do not need gen perks. If the killer isn't tunneling or slugging, going for a 12 hook game and you still lose your team misplayed a lot. Calling UB and DS not an issue because they proc once per trial is extremely downplaying their impacts. If you play at high mmr you would know how impactful even one proc of those has on a trial, much less multiple they can come from different survivors.
"I also dislike the notion that DH is guaranteed or that the killer
doesn't have a power to use or that every hook is in a tight corridor. "While not guaranteed it's most often landed. Especially when used at a pallet where it's a scenario of eat the pallet to the face or swing and eat DH. Lose/lose. Having a power or not for DH is irrelevant. What does a hook in a tight corridor have to do with anything I've said?
'Even if the survivor does all of this in the scenario you listed, for
the rest of the trial they have two perks, that's more than a fair
tradeoff. "This tells me you aren't playing at high mmr. The game is generally lost at that point. You are downplaying how impactful even 1 UB or DS is on a trial, like heavily.
"And if you're implying that the game is lost after this, which would
only be the case in high MMR, then it can also be assumed that you are
playing Nurse/Blight with a meta load-out as well, in which this
scenario is not very significant as S-tier killers don't care. "Why would that imply playing Blight/Nurse? What? That doesn't imply that whatsoever.
I primarily run B tier and below killers.
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I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone use this strategy. How often do you encounter it? Or is this purely hypothetical?
4 -
In that worst-case scenario, yes.
Thankfully, a lot of things seem OP in the worst-case scenario, but aren't in practice.
8 -
I would argue those scenarios are much more common the higher mmr you go.
11 -
I wouldn't say super common, but maybe every 5 games or so. Especially when you get the 3 or 4 mans.
2 -
It handed VERY often back in the day when ask those perks were meta. It will happen more now that DS is getting a buff. But as of now it usually only happens in SWFS
5 -
That would probably be relevant and a very good point, if MMR worked with any consistency
2 -
Even with mmr being inconsistent it does still give you high mmr matches, regardless of if lower ones are thrown in here and there. I don't think that deters from my point.
If you agree it would be bad in those scenarios why would you be against changes to this at all? Nothing I'm mentioning changing would be affecting anyone but the people trying to abuse it. I can't see anyone being against this unless they want to be able to do these scenarios themselves.
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I’m talking about now. I don’t think DS receiving 2 extra seconds will make this strategy meta. If that were the case people would be doing it now. OP says it’s common (every 5 games) but I’m skeptical. I play a lot of solo queue, I’ve never seen anyone pull it off. And in my SWFs people aren’t doing it either.
3 -
Every five games is common. I weirdly never see this as killer (most importantly), or solo queue survivor. And in my SWF groups people aren’t really doing it either. 🤷🏽♀️
1 -
I hope you are right but if we sit here in 6 weeks with 5 posts daily about full body block builds every round I.dont want a single survivor complain if there perks get nerfed again
0 -
From my experience mmr works. I rarely meet the Weskers, Blights, Nurses and other killers that I'm seeing by others.
1 -
The best case here is to hit unhooked one asap to minimize the distance lost. If unhooked survivor still tries to body block after that then it's 100% DS in play so killer can just down them and make DS go waste.
When it comes to body block it's commonly best to punish body blocker asap to save the time trying to bypass them. The only exception is when it's survivor train of body block in which case you can still try to reach the wounded survivor if possible but usually it happens when game is already over.
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Because I think you should be able to majorly delay a tunnel.
Until something changes in the games "basekit", I think it has a place. I'm also willing to see how DS affects it, and make changes accordingly, because it's not an issue currently.
2 -
First off, chill with the us vs them.
Secondly, we will have those posts regardless. The mere fact that DS is getting buffed has already set people off.
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I'd really like to at least see them try the no collision idea at least for basekit endurance, if not for whenever someone has endurance full stop. Seems like the smoothest thing to at least try that doesn't have the potential for extremely obnoxious side effects (like the terrible idea of treating protection hits as inherently conspicious actions. Yes, I totally want to have all my anti-tunnel turned off because there was an injured Meg in a bush where I happened to go down, very epic!)
Obviously makes it so you can just walk through them if they try to block, and also makes it better at anti tunnel too. Killer can't partially or even fully block to wait it out, and it's easier for teammates to take hits for the person that came off the hook without risking accidentally blocking the survivor they're trying to help while doing so as well.
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I never said anything about not being able to delay a tunnel at all. That's nothing of what I've said.
I said people abusing anti tunnel mechanics to body block for the unhooker.
3 -
This is basically what I'd be wanting. Makes tunneling even harder while also preventing these abuse situations I'm talking about. Win/win.
1 -
The problem is "just get the DS out of the way" is a low mmr play. In higher mmr matches eating even 1 DS can cost you the game. The time crunch in those matches is tight.
3 -
I rarely see it in my solo queue games, but regularly in my killer games. My survivor mmr while probably high is definitely lower than my killers. SWF matches is what increases it a lot from the coordination and the higher mmr you go the amount of SWF groups goes up drastically. I'd say like lower than 20% of my matches are actually full solo queue.
0 -
Is there even a major problem with reworking base kit BT to not be endurance and simply turn it into a 10 second mettle of man with no collision? Seems like that fixes the only issue OTR has in the game and makes it so survivors can't body block off hook.
2 -
Let's say a survivor does that. You've eaten the worst case scenario anti-tunnel and hook them a second time. Just tunnel them straight off hook the next time if they do that. Proc the endurance right away and get a quick kill. Annoying if they do that, but you can punish it quickly the second time around.
If you're in a situation where you're really struggling for a kill late in a game and can't get it because someone is using anti-tunnel like that, I'd argue the issue isn't really anti-tunnel at that point. It's making a bad situation worse, but you're already in a bad situation for other reasons.
Plus, in any scenario, you can outplay DH a good portion of the time. It's pretty obvious they're going to have it if they've already gone out of their way to force OTR+DS.
I get that anti-tunnel being used on offense can be annoying. I lived through old syringes, old DS, MoM, etc. But good anti-tunnel has to exist to make the game playable for survivors. Because otherwise you're going to have killer players being absolutely brain dead and hard tunneling off hook at 4 gens with zero consequences, and the game is worse off for that.
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"Let's say a survivor does that. You've eaten the worst case scenario
anti-tunnel and hook them a second time. Just tunnel them straight off
hook the next time if they do that. Proc the endurance right away and
get a quick kill. Annoying if they do that, but you can punish it
quickly the second time around. ""Quick" doesn't fit this scenario. Eating all that stuff in high mmr tight time matches has basically lost you the game. You can't afford that much lost time.
"But good anti-tunnel has to exist to make the game playable for
survivors. Because otherwise you're going to have killer players being
absolutely brain dead and hard tunneling off hook at 4 gens with zero
consequences, and the game is worse off for that. "This is why I already said in my post that I wasn't looking to weaken or remove the anti tunnel. The options aren't have anti tunnel or not have anti tunnel, there's more nuance than that. I'm simply talking about altering them to still function just as good if not even better at preventing tunneling while also preventing situations like this from happening.
If we aren't weakening the anti tunneling at all, why would anyone be against stopping these scenarios?
5 -
"If someone is running OTR/DS/DH/UB that means they have no gen perks or
items not to mention, UB and DS work once per trial, I don't see why
this is a problem. "I don't agree with this at all. Most high mmr
matches the entire groups are running that type of build. The only way
those groups lose is through some tunneling/slugging combination and
those perks counter all those situations. Survivors are not perk
dependent like killers are. As survivor you do not need gen perks. If
the killer isn't tunneling or slugging, going for a 12 hook game and you
still lose your team misplayed a lot. Calling UB and DS not an issue
because they proc once per trial is extremely downplaying
their impacts. If you play at high mmr you would know how impactful
even one proc of those has on a trial, much less multiple they can come
from different survivors.Honestly, it's easier to trim posts by omitting anything about 'high mmr'. Everyone states they are at the highest of the high and 110% of that is merely ego-soothing. No one know their MMR, no one knows anything about it. People get stomped now and then and assume "Wow, I lost. I must be omega high mmr!" Calm down, stating you have high mmr doesn't make your post or points any more relevant.
If there are things to do to counter tunneling, I'm sure you'll love this idea. Find ways to work around survivors trying to combat tunneling. Because you know its probably all they see. Their MMR pits them against constant tunneling, your mmr pits you against teams who constantly put you in worst case scenarios that you can complain about on these forums. Its a nice lil system :)
If this seems tinged with malice, it's not. But I am quite agitated that this post is even here. Is this really the next flavor of the month to hate on? We get a tunneling weapon, adrenaline nerfed, and now it's on to something else.
Anyway, your scenario's are niche and very rare, regardless of your supposed god tier mmr. It is NOT a reason to nerf survivors or killers.
"I also dislike the notion that DH is guaranteed or that the killer
doesn't have a power to use or that every hook is in a tight corridor. "While
not guaranteed it's most often landed. Especially when used at a pallet
where it's a scenario of eat the pallet to the face or swing and eat
DH. Lose/lose. Having a power or not for DH is irrelevant. What does a
hook in a tight corridor have to do with anything I've saidAgain, niche scenario. Killers should not always have a positive outcome, just like survivors. I was told if I was tunneled, I put myself in that position. Well, if this DH scenario is SO common for you, stop putting yourself in that scenario. Gonna explain to me how that's impossible? Am I not high MMR because 'I dont understand?' Oh, that's the next point, Im early lol.
'Even if the survivor does all of this in the scenario you listed, for
the rest of the trial they have two perks, that's more than a fair
tradeoff. "This tells me you aren't playing at high mmr. The game
is generally lost at that point. You are downplaying how impactful even
1 UB or DS is on a trial, like heavily.Or this tells us your mmr isn't as high as you think, since you're clearly given up already if you get UB or DS'd. Of course you're gonna lose. Its like a survivor killing themself on hook first down. And Im making this atrocious comparison because I get insane comparisons also. Like tunneling equals gen rushing. Of course it doesn't, but it helps keep the pot stirred.
This scenario isn't doomsday for the killer player. Its still very winnable. But not if in your mindset. I only play Trapper and when I get DS'd or the team reset without me even knowing, I don't toss my hands up and go 'Damn my high mmr.'
"And if you're implying that the game is lost after this, which would
only be the case in high MMR, then it can also be assumed that you are
playing Nurse/Blight with a meta load-out as well, in which this
scenario is not very significant as S-tier killers don't care. "Why would that imply playing Blight/Nurse? What? That doesn't imply that whatsoever.
I primarily run B tier and below killers.
Yeah, not sure what this was about. Not going there lol. But I am curious! What killers do you run? Maybe that could explain some things for me lol. I dont expect everything I said to stick, as Im sure you have some good replies. I just want to see them :) Ty for the discussion!
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I'm going to say what I think, but please stay calm and understand all the points of my idea and try to see if it makes sense to you or not (after all, I'm not the owner of the truth)
I'm the type who thinks like this: all players, whether survs or killers, have to play with all their strength, if you think you should camp or tunnel the same surv, do it, a game where everyone says that killers they are the weakest side not being able to use resources that give them a chance to win, I am completely against players needing to fix the game's problems
Now comes the part that may divide opinions, I think the game really helps some killers to tunnel the survs, like: the yellow hook, and immediate hud update and the alert when a surv is saved, these are things that I think should have a delay, like when a surv was saved it would take 5 seconds before the killer received the alert,
to give the survs the chance to escape if the killer is far away, I know that there are killers like the nurse, the dredger, among others who, when they hear the alert, return to the hook while patrolling, if there was no immediate alert, the killer could decide to go back to see if there is a surv healing another one, or stay near the hook waiting for someone to save and leave the gens without patrolling
without the immediate alert, the killer needs to decide between taking care of the genes or staying on the hook waiting for someone to try to save, in the current way, killers like nurse and blight, puts pressure on the match and when he receives the rescue alert he quickly returns to tunnel, which is what I think the game is ridiculous, the game has to allow you to play your way and have consequences for your decisions
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my general rule of thumb is, if you bodyblock when you get unhooked while I'm trying to go after the attacker, I'm tunneling you out of the game. No exceptions
2 -
This is a very, very large amount of hyperbole and straw man arguments. You exaggerated a lot of my points to things I never said or implied. "highest of the high" "omega high mmr" "supposed god tier mmr"
Me saying I play in high mmr is not synonymous with any of these misrepresentations you said. It's just trying to mock me.
"Is this really the next flavor of the month to hate on? We get a
tunneling weapon, adrenaline nerfed, and now it's on to something else. "And making this an us vs them. I never asked for any of the survivor stuff here to be nerfed. This has nothing to do with the topic nor me.
"Honestly, it's easier to trim posts by omitting anything about 'high
mmr'. Everyone states they are at the highest of the high and 110% of
that is merely ego-soothing. No one know their MMR, no one knows
anything about it. "I trim posts by anyone who dismisses high mmr. I only see people dismissing high mmr when they haven't experienced high mmr. I have over 10k+ hours in DBD. That puts me in like the .0001% of the population. After that much play time I have a pretty good understanding of the game. After that many hours I would expect anyone to be able to discern what good and not good players look like, hence understanding my own mmr.
You state like you're wanting to have a genuine conversation here, yet simultaneously mock me and talk towards me in a demeaning tone. It's disingenuous. I'd like a normal and productive conversation, but we can have that without being belittling towards me.
I main Pig, Dredge and Plague. Dipping into DS lately. Plague I wouldn't put as low tier, she's good (depending on addons), but the others I would.
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Anyone who says otherwise isn't being very truthful. I managed to do this build even with the current DS yesterday.
Bodyblocking doors especially wastes so much of the killer's time that they have no choice but to try and down+hook you because chasing their original target would take too long.
4 -
I'm actually totally in favor of more anti tunnel/camp like these ideas you've presented.
2 -
It could be lack of them being truthful (I'd hope not), but to be honest I think it's just that very few of them actually experience it since this is a higher mmr thing. I just think they don't see it/understand the issue. Or potentially some just only really play survivor and they enjoy the body blocking/swf coordination of it and don't want to lose it.
Like if I don't want any of the anti tunnel nerfed (as I said in my original post), and only changes to prevent the abuse of it, why would anyone be against fixing this? It makes no sense unless they know it happens and just don't want to lose it.
And it's wild the amount of people posting that we need the anti tunnel features or mocking me for just wanting to tunnel when I literally said in my post and even bolded it that I did not want to nerf the anti tunnel at all. I even said I'd improve it rofl. I don't know if people just aren't bothering to even finish reading the post in its entirety before commenting or what.
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It is inevitable for people to think that something that they do not experience does not exist. If you can talk to someone and understand them, do so, but if not, just leave them alone.
On the main topic, the theory is that if a body block is coming, it is best to quickly hit him with the least amount of loss. If I could dodge him and hit the unhooker, I would. In any case, it would be better to corner the injured survivor and turn him into a slug and then think about what to do, but their strategy is to cause the killer to do these things in the first place and aim for the gen to complete. So if killer think that's a nuisance, he should just ignore them both and work on gen patrol. It all depends on the situation.
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That's what bewilders me.
We're not advocating for tunneling, any sane killer who wants the game to be enjoyable for everyone would be happy if tunneling was less of a necessary feeling, but we're pointing out a problematic combination that does have a massive effect on the pace of a match and is being used in a way the perks weren't intended.
It's the same as 3-gens or facecamping was in my opinion. A problematic playstyle that was made worse with the right perk combinations. And even then, not all low MMR players have Decisive Strike, so buffing it does nothing for new survivor players being tunneled.
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Totally agree.
Like I was expecting comments here like, "Oh well I haven't seen that stuff happen much but as long as it's not weakening the anti tunnel I don't see why not, that sounds reasonable since it's not their intended purpose anyway".
Not a single one lol. But that would have been the most rational response. Like hypothetically I wouldn't mind any change that fixes a problem with the game someone was having if it didn't impact me or others negatively. Like why not?
Very surprised to receive push back on this.
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Yes, but it's likely that changing either of them will affect that ability.
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So you think fixing this issue without negatively impacting the anti tunnel mechanics is very unlikely?
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Well that was an interesting take. Didn't expect you to be offended at all. Apologies.
0 -
It's okay, I was perhaps too defensive as well. Apologies on that too.
0 -
The subtle hinting that anyone who disagrees with you must be low-mmr is kinda weird, but I'll bite anyways.
I don't agree with this at all. Most high mmr matches the entire groups
are running that type of build. The only way those groups lose is
through some tunneling/slugging combination and those perks counter all
those situations. Survivors are not perk dependent like killers are. As
survivor you do not need gen perks. If the killer isn't tunneling or
slugging, going for a 12 hook game and you still lose your team
misplayed a lot. Calling UB and DS not an issue because they proc once
per trial is extremely downplaying their
impacts. If you play at high mmr you would know how impactful even one
proc of those has on a trial, much less multiple they can come from
different survivors.Most 'high MMR' matches are absolutely not all DS+OTR+DH+UB, you're thinking of coordinated SWFs which are an entirely different game and are extremely rare.
Respectfully, I don't how how you can say Survivors are not perk dependent but killers are but then also claim to be a high-level player.
There was nothing stopping DS + DH + OTR + UB from being meta for months now considering MFT is the only meta-defining survivor perk that was released recently, so you are severely over-hyping how damaging they are to the average 'high mmr' match if at all.While not guaranteed it's most often landed. Especially when used at a
pallet where it's a scenario of eat the pallet to the face or swing and
eat DH. Lose/lose. Having a power or not for DH is irrelevant. What does
a hook in a tight corridor have to do with anything I've said?It is not 'most often landed' unless you are not good at playing around it, which is entirely a skill issue, and having a power absolutely does change a lot? There are a lot of powers that are good for baiting dh, attacking after dh, and capitalizing on failed DH's. Which would make the point of having to hit someone 'four times' irrelevant.
Again you are describing the 100 vs 0 scenario where the survivor does everything right on the right map while the killer is just a sentient W and M1 button, that's why people are telling you you are exaggerating.
This tells me you aren't playing at high mmr. The game is generally lost
at that point. You are downplaying how impactful even 1 UB or DS is on a
trial, like heavily.I mean you're telling on yourself if anything.
You are definitely not losing countless games vs pub survivors because of one DS, and if you are, then please record your games! Footage would be very helpful in seeing how it goes down, also open to any VOD's from high mmr killers losing games to this.
Very coincidental that after a Blight player loses their 1.9k + streak to a comp swf sniping with full anti-tunnel loadouts and a DS buff that suddenly bodyblocking with this build is the new 'high mmr' meta, despite none of these perks getting any changes until now and none of them being popular even in higher mmr's.
I agree that these perks can be very strong but coordination with other survivors plays a huge factor in this and the overwhelming majority of survivors, including 'high mmr' survivors are not coordinated. Even at their best I would hardly call these perks overpowered or without counters.
As for your suggestions I would agree and have said similar in the past, collision should definitely be removed from unhooked survivors but also basekit BT should not be an endurance hit either.
5 -
I think this is missing the more likely outcome, which is that the unhooked survivor only takes the Endurance hit and then leaves. In that case I don't view it as a problem, you're still getting a Mend action out of them so it's not a complete loss.
Beyond that, even assuming the survivor does force you into downing them, I think the part that's being missed here is that you're still occupying two survivors for all that time, leaving only two (if everyone's alive) to do generators. The alternative to this scenario, especially assuming good survivors that don't go down easy in chase, is that you chase the unhooker, the unhooked goes to do generators, and now three survivors are directly progressing the objective instead of two.
Survivors that play this cocky and aggressive tend to be walking on a razor's edge where one mistake (or one correct read on the killer's part) completely unravels their team because they're already playing inefficiently. Even looking at the best case scenario for them, where the chase happens near some tight corridors or doorways that they can fully bodyblock, they're still putting themselves in a strictly worse scenario than if they'd decided to let anti-tunnel be defensive instead of offensive.
That's also why your scenario where you go occupy someone else but the unhooked survivor is following you is definitely not a problem. That's kind of great for you, honestly, you're getting the effect of a dead survivor off the guy trying to follow you around for their youtube montage or whatever.
Generally, when we self-select ourselves into imagining the platonic ideal of the High MMR Survivor, pretty much anything they do is going to be hard to respond to. At least when they play aggressive, cocky, and altruistic, it's something you could punish.
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I see DS about the same amount 1/4 or 5 games. Adding 2 is more like adding 40 because now they can W key it to a good loop and get a few loops out of it on top of getting a reset on DH.
0 -
I do.
I also do not believe they are a permanent solution. Tunneling, and to a lesser extent proxying, should be addressed in the game itself, not via DLC perks.
Once that occurs, feel free to do with them what you wish.
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I ignore the unhook and push gens. If the person that just got off the hook wants to come body block, that's fine. Between the time it takes for them to come to me and get into position to take the hit, they have burned a nice chunk of DS, add in the time for me to now chase them and get a second hit, and DS is mostly gone if not gone completely.
They go back on the hook, wasting all the time that they could of had just jumping on a gen after being unhooked. The person that I initially was going to go after lost a bunch of time on a gen due to having to run from me, and usually I can get a hit on them before the body blocker can get in position. Now the team is in a worse position than if the body blocker had just jumped on gens.
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We might as well just agree to disagree then as we fundamentally disagree. Nearly everything you said I think is incorrect and no one who plays at high mmr would agree with.
"Most 'high MMR' matches are absolutely not all DS+OTR+DH+UB, you're
thinking of coordinated SWFs which are an entirely different game and
are extremely rare. "Most high mmr games are these perks and most matches at high mmr are swf. The rates of swf climb significantly the higher you go as swf is how you reach those higher levels. Probably sub 20% of my games are actually full solo queue groups.
"Respectfully, I don't how how you can say Survivors are not perk
dependent but killers are but then also claim to be a high-level player."Everyone well experienced in the game would agree with this. This is a widely accepted concept.
'There was nothing stopping DS + DH + OTR + UB from being meta for months
now considering MFT is the only meta-defining survivor perk that was
released recently, so you are severely over-hyping how damaging they are
to the average 'high mmr' match if at all. "Yeah, it's been meta. This isn't new. Other than the uptick in DS since people are prepping the buff anyway. Anyone who plays at high mmr knows I'm not exaggerating how impactful those perks are.
"It is not 'most often landed' unless you are not good at playing around
it, which is entirely a skill issue, and having a power absolutely does
change a lot? There are a lot of powers that are good for baiting dh,
attacking after dh, and capitalizing on failed DH's. Which would make
the point of having to hit someone 'four times' irrelevant. "Bad survivors fall for those baits. Having the m2 ability doesn't change much.
"You are definitely not losing countless games vs pub survivors because
of one DS, and if you are, then please record your games! Footage would
be very helpful in seeing how it goes down, also open to any VOD's from
high mmr killers losing games to this. "That isn't what I said. I never said pub survivors. It's many swf groups. I actually stream regularly, it's in my profile.
"Very coincidental that after a Blight player loses their 1.9k + streak
to a comp swf sniping with full anti-tunnel loadouts and a DS buff that
suddenly bodyblocking with this build is the new 'high mmr' meta,
despite none of these perks getting any changes until now and none of
them being popular even in higher mmr's. "This is so random. This has nothing to do with anything. These perks were all popular and meta long before this video, like literally since their releases. YEARS.
"I agree that these perks can be very strong but coordination with other
survivors plays a huge factor in this and the overwhelming majority of
survivors, including 'high mmr' survivors are not coordinated. Even at
their best I would hardly call these perks overpowered or without
counters. "In higher mmr brackets it is mostly swf so they are mostly coordinated.
1 -
Oh I agree that it should be addressed in the game itself instead of perks.
I disagree the problem isn't solvable without harming anti tunnel mechanics though. Something as simple as zero collision makes the anti tunnel not only stronger but also prevents this abuse scenario. Win/win.
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This is a good rational response. I appreciate the calm discussion compared to some others.
I do agree my scenario is a kind of worst case one. However, I'd argue even the simplest version of every single unhook in the game the unhooked body blocks just for their OTR and then goes back to gens is still an issue. That's still tons of extra hits throughout the game game that should realistically never be happening as it's "supposed" to be an anti tunnel mechanic.
As you mentioned, I do normally just go to gens. I'm not a camp/tunnel or go back to the hook type of player. However, this scenario still happens a lot if you're making smart hook placements in your 3 gen. So I'm basically "already there" quite often. Or the other scenario which also happens often even if I intend to leave which is them just unhooking before I can even walk off.
Still ignore them unhooking before I can leave and just go after the other survivors on gens? Well the others at the unhook have told them I'm coming and already pre ran. So just hold w to catch up to them and lose 20+ seconds before the chase even starts? Impractical for winning with this scenario is my point I guess.
Idk maybe I'm just getting the swat squads more than most people here so it looks like I'm making some rare matchmaking scenario but these aren't uncommon games.
We can even pretend these are rare scenarios for this hypothetical of problem solving if that makes it easier. Let's just say we're in this rare scenario. How do we solve this? I would generally say play a different killer or fix the anti tunnel being used for its unintended purpose. That's the options I see. I typically am running weak m1 type killers.
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“Nearly everything you said I think is incorrect and no one who plays at high mmr would agree with.”
Why are you being so dismissive to anyone that disagrees with this as essentially just saying “you’re not good at the game”? You’re saying you want civil discussion, yet dismissing anyone that contends with it by stating they’re clearly not high MMR. Is it not possible that you’re hyperbolizing an issue to be way more apparent and dangerous than it truly is? This is how comp players play, not your average high MMR lobbies.
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Well what should I say when I'm telling you what I see in my games regularly and you tell me that's not the case?
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I'd add an aura or some other visible effect to show that basekit Endurance/OTR/DS is active and collision is off. The argument against it is that you can't bait a Killer into following somebody as a strategy and it shows who could be tunneled but the counter argument is that if you take OTR or DS and it deters the Killer from tunneling you it's done its job as intended and if you have to take a perk to avoid being tunneled you'll need to take it anyway regardless of a visual effect or not.
I can't remember if you had an opinion on my thread about anti-tunneling ideas but my suggestion had been slowing down gen progress while survivors are alive and speeding it up incrementally as survivors are killed to slow down the early game but make doing all gens easier as survivors are killed so getting all survivors or nearly all to death hook and then killing survivors would be more effective. That would reduce the effectiveness of tunneling and slow down the game so anti tunneling perks aren't as needed.
Another suggestion from the same thread (apologies to the suggestor; I don't remember who suggested it) was giving a pool of hook states so no survivor died until the 9th hook state. The effectiveness of tunneling would be severely diminished at that point. I like the suggestion; the reason why I prefer mine is because gen speed can be a major issue for Killers in higher MMR so a slowdown that encourages spreading hooks hits both and lessens the need to tunnel. They're both good suggestions in my opinion.
If tunneling is less effective then there will be less tunneling and that equates to less need to buff anti tunnel perks. That'll require some changes to mechanics though. In the meantime band aid changes such as reverting DS to 5 seconds are very much necessary.
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that it’s your personal anecdotal experience and not reflective of everyone else’s.
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