Revert Blight hug tech

But the DC thread wasn't responded to as 'not a bug'/'declined' as I've seen other bug threads be responded to, and is still 'under review' ~6 months later. Regardless this part is all off-topic.

Blight's hug-tech principle is:

Collision detection of Blighted Corruption, is consistent with Basic Attack obstructions.

you can Stand by the wall very close, face to wall and attack, slowly move down your Camera after hit the wall.

then you will find A miraculous phenomenon. when you can not hit the wall by m1 attack, the Blighted Corruption prompt (m2)appears below your screen and you can use hug-tech.

The question is, blight when rushing, he's camera will be Force pull to [Horizontal plane](I mean Parallel to the ground), but the Collision detection is not flushing, just keep the beginning detection.

even though in this moment use M1 attack will hit the wall and get Obstructed Attacks by the wall.

You’re wrong. When BHVR created the secondary collision detection mechanic, there was a bug where Blight would get stuck if he tried to M2 while he was directly up against a wall that he was facing….. and BHVR fixed that bug by allowing him to slide instead of getting stuck.

This means that BHVR literally added hug tech to the game, to fix a collision bug. But it was unintended for hug tech to exist because they only added it to fix the M2 bug.

I know how it works.

You referring to Blight or Wesker? Because this is how Wesker works.

I know that Blight s hug-tech works with look angle, but that is not what triggers it for Wesker

It s so stupid, because now we have all the people "claiming" that xyz is a bug and therefore an exploit. It's so annoying.

When there is a standard understanding of how a power functions, and a bug distorts this norm, the bug provides an advantage for the person abusing it. When I'm told "just leave a bugtech Blight loop", they proceed to bounce off of something behind me and get the hit on the subsequent rush for free. When an Oni flicks around a corner, they can hit when the power isn't supposed to be able to damage. The counter is to hide in the wedge of the attack range, but flicks bypass the intended counterplay. (See mediocre MS paint drawing for reference).

These bug exploits delete fair counterplay. That is my issue with them. It doesn't matter how many backflips someone has to do IRL to unlock this magical power, it still is unfair for the opposition. If the powers were designed around their use, then maybe Oni wouldn't 1-hit down on flicks and get a new backhand animation, or Wesker would have a longer CD post-throw/slam or Deep Wound injured targets and down Deep Wounded targets, or Blight would have a longer Fatigue/token recovery time.

When there is a limit to a power, that means there is counterplay to a power. When there is a bug to abuse in order to bypass any of these limitations, then counterplay is deleted.

I don't see any fun in having my options being limited by bugs, but I can understand the schadenfreude of denying an opponent counterplay and feeling like an unstoppable force. I don't think we should balance around bypassing the fair limitations though. If I get 100 power points, and Oni's power duration is worth 60, and the instadown 25, and the speed 15, these are all assuming the lethality has the counterplay. Adding in flicks adds (for sake of argument) 25 more points of lethality, so it should lose ~half power duration, or instadown, or something else to counterbalance it back to being fair. It would be the same if Trapper could place traps directly in front of gen spots, and it would only allow the Survivor to work the gen and magnet into the trap, while also disabling the ability to disarm the trap until the gen is completed.

I still guess they will re-introduce it because people will get mad.

Maybe in 6-12 months from now.

You disagree that 'a bug bypassing a restriction gives an advantage'? I'm not sure how you back up this claim.

As for the part you want me to address, I don't find relevant. That's why I haven't addressed it. To me it would be like saying the Blood pools should be purple instead of red, it would still largely impact people with R/G colorblind, and provide nothing of value for the majority of the playerbase. Also I don't go to an Ice Cream shop and ask for a steak. DBD is where you get Ice Cream, not steaks. Got to a steakhouse if you want steaks. If you want to express your skill, do so in a game the rewards that, like DOTA or Counter Strike. When I hear 'I want greater skill expression in Dead by Daylight this specific way', I also hear 'I don't value the rest of the skill expression the game provides'. There is macro skill, and there is micro skill. Macro skill is where the majority of the game's skill expression lies, but people only want micro skill expression since it's flashier. You want more Micro, play a Shooter or a Moba, you want more Macro, play an RTS, but DBD has a good balance of both, as is, right now.

The 2nd paragraph is my core point. Bugs are not part of the designed strength, and the basekit must be adjusted for the new designed strength if the bug is going to be included as the new normal. As for general tier lists and specific org's tier lists, they are purpose driven. Otz's tier list is for top tier MMR, aka the top 25% of the playerbase. A comp tier list is for dealing with the specific rules of comp, and caliber of opponents. In comp, there largely isn't a 'weak link', but in matchmade games there most often is. In comp, clock callouts coordinating activities is the norm, in matchmade games they aren't. I understand that people may want changes that will give them more strength, but that doesn't mean their opposition at every skill level should have to deal with that. If it were only allowed in comp, then that's fine. That is my stance, (hardly black and white) since a bug exploit is expressly reportable only in matchmade games, Comp, scrims, and all other customs can use it as much as they want. Regular matchmade games have the rule to disallow bug exploits for an advantage. I don't care if you flick in customs, you can keep the bug, but keep it out of normal matches. When people start abusing the bugs in normals, then I want the abusers (temp) banned or the bug fixed if I need to repeatly report people for abusing it. Keeping it out of sight keeps it out of mind. I never needed to complain about someone in a different match than mine. I did (feel the) need to complain about the person breaking the rules in order to hit me when the power normally doesn't allow for that in that circumstance.

Skill expression needs to include micro decisions, as well as macro. Disarming trapper traps is a macro skill decision. "Is it worth my time to disable that trap, or should I pump the gen instead?" Worrying about chase interaction as the only skill expression is short-sighted at best, and willfully ignorant at worst. People may like fast powers, but people also like long-form tactical powers, sadly 'Chess-Merchant' has largely poisoned that well (in both design and those who play her). I play Ghosty and Trapper in a very tactical and macro oriented way. I pre-stalk 2-4 Survs before even starting my first chase. Trapper is the opposite, I place 1 or 2 traps and rush into action. I need to get high value traps set and get people off gens before it is too late for me to snowball. Both involve large amounts of macro skill and snowballing pressure for my wins, and the Survivors could win if they displayed any macro skill (chase me and disable my power). Since people have so little respect for macro, they don't do that, and lose as a result against me.

I understand if you want to show your skills outside the realm of the 'supposed way', but customs/scrims is the place for that. There is no rule against bug usage in customs, only normal matchmade games. You can have your cake (bug not fixed) and eat it (play without getting banned when using it), just use the appropriate avenue. Just like if I want to verbally berate someone, I have to have them in my Discord call instead of typing it in endgame chat. The rules are (oversimplied) 'don't harass using in-game tools', so I can play customs and bully my friends in Discord with a "they're coming to get you Bar-bar-UH" and then attack them from the shadows and call them a slur/swear to throw them off. I can't do that in normals. (Actually I just double-checked and the 'Harassment' rules are surprisingly light in comparison. I can say to an opponent "you are 2% stinkier than the normal person", and since that's an insult, it's illegal, regardless of the tame and absurdist nature of the insult. The bug abuse rules are far harder to break by accident by using normal intuition.)

Shorter summary

• Play customs if you want to break the rules, then you can use bugs, and people won't complain about rules being broken
• Skill Expression includes Micro and Macro, if you ignore Macro, of course there is going to be a lack in skill expression
• If you want more Skill Expression play DOTA/CS/SC, games that actually reward skill expression

Prologue- It's long to provide a hearty explanation. It is long so that you don't have to assume or try to infer a position I hold, because it is detailed. I find this avenue of discussion perfectly adequate and friendly. I can't force you to reply or ignore this, but I will reply to your points regardless.

1- Your response to my post with the Oni flick picture had the first statement be "I heavily disagree the first part." My first part, which I read as being the first paragraph which that paragraph's sum conclusion was 'bugs bypassing restrictions yields an advantage'. If you meant a different part, it wasn't the first paragraph, so I don't know which 'part' you were referring to.

2- Exactly, it is a non sequitur. It isn't relevant. That was the point I was making, that you were defending something that I didn't care about or find relevant. I don't need to attack/defend against a position of pigs are grey on Thursdays because I don't care if someone thinks that.

3- What about this is black and white? I'm not saying there is 0 skill expression. I'm saying the skill expression isn't worth mentioning in comparison to a place that rewards it. Alternatively think of games as swimming pools. DBD is a plastic kiddie pool you can buy for cheap, 2ft deep at tops. Plastic pools can only really get as deep as 6ft if you spend a lot of money. For a good amount of skill expression, you need a concrete swimming pool. Concrete pools usually start at 5ft minimum, and can go as deep as I've seen at 20ft. I'm saying the other games are concrete pools with depth, and DBD is a shallow plastic pool in terms of skill expression.

4- How is greater skill expression, when you want greater skill expression, nonsense? There are multiple facets of the game, and I split them into 2 major umbrellas. Micro is chase, Macro is hook states/gens/pallets broken.

5- My read of this is we agree.

6- My comment here is taking into account that DBD's current matchmaking is garbage, and random skill levels are brought in all the time. I have 74% winrate on Killer before gens pop, and I frequently have 20-200hr Survs autofilled into lobbies. Autofill means anyone can play with anyone. That means all skill level players have to play with all skill level players.

7- I think less than 100 total players are against this change. That still is 'many people', just not a statistically significant amount. The majority of people don't care, want Blight nerfed anyway possible, or care about other things more. Every 'top-MMR' Survivor I've talked to or heard from is sick and tired of Blight. Sweatlord Blights who do this is soloq are ruining your ability to have fun using bugs, so blame them.

8- Black and White lacks nuance, if I have nuance in my stance it can't be black and white. Since I don't care about people bug exploiting in matches I'm not involved in, I am not saying "You can't do that ever". Just because you say something is, doesn't make it true. Addressing your second point, not wanting to deal with people breaking the game rules is something that affects 4 other people in the match, whether it is a Killer abusing a bug, or a Survivor griefing their team and denying the Killer a normal match, or a software cheater denying all other players a normal match. You could say that I am at max 25% selfish, and 75% not wanting others to be victimized in preventing people from breaking the game's rules (or this one specifically). Essentially I don't want others to be victimized down the line, so I report rather than hard DCing when I find someone doing this. If I hard DCed, you could rightfully claim I'm selfish, but I don't.

9- 25% selfish again, 75% caring for others.

10- When people break the game rules, I report them. Hardly weird or selfish, but again you could claim it is 25% selfish 75% altruistic. You could even make the argument that I don't want more people than just me to be affected by people breaking the rules, that's why I even bother reporting them in the first place, so it likely is much greater than 75%. If I helped 1 match, it brought it up to 7/8 or 87.5% altruistic, and 10 matches to 39/40 or 97.5% altruistic.

11- No I mean breaking the games' rules, not mine. Picture of relevant section and highlighted subsection below.

Unless you want to claim I hacked BHVR's website and changed the game rules to 'my rules', it is the games' rules, they aren't mine. My rules are things I apply to myself and not others. Like I don't intentionally tunnel unless someone wants to bodyblock, or I try to avoid camping to give them a chance of unhook. I know I could win easier if I did those things, but by using weaker Killers and not crutching on free win strategies (against soloq), I force myself to improve at the game. Those are my rules I impose upon myself, not on others.

12- That may be true, I haven't checked. I just figure if you are bothering to play a custom with someone, then everyone would have a shared understanding of what is and isn't acceptable. I would think someone would be able to confront the person directly over doing something they aren't supposed to do, as opposed to being reliant on using the reporting system. As far as I was aware they fully disabled reporting in customs, but I could be mistaken.

13- Harassment is also against the game rules. I was making the point that if I wanted to engage in breaking the game's rules, I need to do so by taking the correct path if I don't want to risk getting banned. Outside comms are not monitored by BHVR or reportable, thus Discord harassment is 'legal' in the sense that I couldn't be banned from the game for doing it. My friends might not like it, or they will insult me back, but it is divorced from the game at large regardless.

1 & 5: I'm now confused, because 5 was both of us agreeing that it is fine to basekit bugs if the power shifts as a result. But you disagree with that in 1. My #5 point was that if a bug provides 15 power points out of 100 expected, then we need to take away 15 from the base power if the bug will now be considered basekit.

3: I think this is perfect, because we started with one kiddie pool, and we keep grafting/duct-taping more plastic pools together hoping they keep the water in. We might have 28 kiddie pools and 3 large plastic pools strapped together, but they still lack the potential depth a purpose driven concrete pool can provide. If we want things sweaty and serious, shouldn't we have had basic QoL like ranked bans and replays and a casual playlist permanently active? We had a casual playlist (Rank based matchmaking), but now it is only a sweaty ranked playlist (MMR).

4: Lead a horse to water but can't make them drink I suppose.

6: Top 25% of players for 'top MMR' is hardly effective imo. The 25th percentile Killer has no chance against the 10th percentile players, let alone the 5th and 1st. That starts people on both Surv and Killer to crutch on powerful tools instead of improving their skill. If the 'top MMR' was 10% or 5% I would concede this point, but it is too large for me to consider it effective as is.

7: I completely understand not wanting stats based decisions. I was and still am against the 6.1 perk changes, and am glad they rolled back the nerfs on Pop/PR/(in progress) DS, and I hope they rebuff Thana into being viable on more than Legion and Plague. This however is an issue that caused far more suffering that pleasure. Every Survivor player I've typed/heard/talked to is soooooo sick and tired of Blight. This is a net positive overall.

8 & 9: I would like to know what math you are using to come to this conclusion. I can at most, be 25% of a Survivor team, all of a Killer team, or 20% of the players in any given lobby. Even if you used (.25 [Survivor]+1[Killer])/2[Averaged], you could only come up with 62.5% max.

10 & 11: Just because you haven't heard of someone getting punished for breaking the rules doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist. Just as if I've never personally seen someone ticketed for Jaywalking or Speeding doesn't mean the law doesn't exist. We aren't arguing whether or not those rules/laws should or shouldn't exist, just discussing their mere existence. Asking for proof of bans given that BHVR forum rules specifically prohibit that (or see picture below), is either blissful ignorance to be favorable, or an attempt to get me banned to be unfavorable. You can't use that as a point of proof regardless given the forum rules. Again, this point was started on you saying the game's rules were my rules. I proved that they weren't my rules so it removes 'selfish' from the equation.

1&5: I think we are circling here.

3: I too think ranked features like map and Killer bans should apply in our current, ranked only game mode. We currently have Ranked and Customs, so we should either get Ranked QoL, and/or an MMR free matchmaking 'casual' queue.

4-9: Nothing to add.

10-11:
P1: Both were spiteful and not breaking the rules/breaking the same rule (idr the details). I think they deserve each other <3.

P2: If the rules have no purpose, I'm fine with removing them, but as long as they are in place I will assume they are being used. If BHVR deletes that bug exploit section tomorrow, I have nothing more to say in that race.

P3: You claim that I am saying "bug must be fixed". My claim is the bugs can remain, but their use in public matches is at risk of breaking the rules, with the corresponding punishment for breaking rules. My stance also is that we can basekit bugs, but the power must be adjusted to match the new power level with the bug included as well. There is a wide range of acceptable views here, so I don't understand the claim of black and white thinking.

As far as some of the report bans, this is some of the text they give for various reports. (Since I filed off all identifying info, this should be safe to post.)

"While we won't be able to send you email updates on this report, for
future submissions filed in-game, you can use the in-game Report
Feedback feature to know if a report you made has been investigated and
actioned upon."

"We'll take a look at the player you reported for unsportsmanlike conduct
and take additional action if it is needed, but please note that for
confidentiality reasons we will not be able to inform you of the outcome
of this report."

"We'll take a look at this account you mentioned griefing by bodyblocking a player in place and holding the game hostage and take additional action if it is needed, but please note that we will not be able to inform you of the outcome of this report."

"Thank you so much for reaching out to us about this - I'm sorry that you've encountered someone potentially breaking our rules. by speed hacking during your match in order to get an advantage over you. We'll take a look at this and take additional action if it is needed, but please note that we will not be able to inform you of the outcome of this report."

"Thank you so much for reaching out to us about this - I'm sorry that you've encountered someone potentially breaking our rules. We'll take a look at this and take additional action if it is needed, but please note that we will not be able to inform you of the outcome of this report."

Note the common thread? They can't tell you if someone gets banned, regardless of whether it is bug exploits, blatant cheating, griefing, holding the game hostage, or whatever. So I couldn't tell you if someone got banned from a report even if I wanted to. Even with the new ban feedback system where they tell you in-game, you would have to intentionally only report 1 person over the course of 2-3 months, depending on how long the ban backlog is, before you would find out.

P4: To be fair to their claims, BHVR says loosely "MMR works in a white room", but autofill breaks this 'white room' assumption. More accurately their claim was that MMR correctly assesses a win/loss effectively. If one person backs out of a match it breaks the MMR assessment of the initial match, and puts anyone in to plug the gap.

For example if a Killer is 2000 MMR, and the Survivors are 2200/2100/1900/1700 (avg. 1975 MMR), it would calculate that as a win for Killer. If the 1700 backed out, and a 1900 or 800 Survivor replaced them, then the match is now 2025 or 1750 avg. A win for Survivors now, or a crushing defeat for Survivors (instead of the normal loss it was before).

So they can have truth even in a statement we both consider to be flawed for greater reasons. That basically appears to be both of our positions of one another lol. We both are trying to get the other to see what we consider to be the full picture.