How many 4 K's at 5 Gens will it take to move the needle?
There is "playing the game," and there is "trying to be the only one having a good time."
Surely it doesn't take a 20-minute player satisfaction survey, which won't even reach the thousands of dissatisfied players who have abandoned the game, to identify the numerous design choices that have made this game an attractive choice for the black of heart.
I don't play Killer enough to encounter the "4-man sweat squads" that others bemoan—I really couldn't say how common they are since recent updates. But this sentiment extends to them as well.
The massive power swing provided by perks and add-ons does not do this game many favors.
Comments
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Well it depends on the person why they play like that, I don't play sweaty to be only one to have fun, I just learned after beginning the game that most of the people won't thank you and just insult you if you play nice (interessting enough some people are even nicer if you play sweaty). So I just play as good as I can without holding me back on my tactics depending on map-offerings and items xD
Oh btw: 4-mans are more or less regulary a thing, they really like to bring eyrie, the game, haddonfield or gardon of joy and to use a lot of flashlights, toolboxes and sabotaging. It's quite annoying but after a while you learn to kill them (you have to play really dirty for that sometimes)
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This sounds like solo queue. You will have matches where two or even three survivors are a combination of slugged and hooked before you finish the first gen. Then you go to clean up and die in the process.
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4k at 5 gens can mean a few things.
Survivors gave up early. Maybe a killer they don't like.
Match making fail.
Survivors were too busy messing around to stay on a gen.
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I don't know what else BHVR can do without completely gutting Killers at this rate.
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'the black of heart'. You know that a killer getting a 4k at 5 gens doesn't mean they're a bad person, right?
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I play a lot of DBD on both sides, I rarely have matches where all Survivors die at 5 Generators remaining; I think it's only happened twice to me within the past two months or so for me (1 as Killer, 1 as Survivor).
In general, 4Ks are not that common to begin with. Most of the time I get 3Ks as Killer or the Killer gets a 3K when I play Survivor since the final Survivor gets hatch or outplays them in an Exit Gate standoff. Yes, they could slug for the 4K, but not everyone does that, a lot of players just find it boring and would rather go next.
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Problem is two things.
1 . Matchmaking is terrible and produces a huge amount of mismatches. These usually favor the killer since there are four survivors and a high chance that at least one will be bad.
2. The amount of broken things you can still bring. If you bring four slowdowns on a strong killer and tunnel at five gens then no ordinary team will have a chance. Only a coordinated SWF really has a chance and we know those aren't incredibly common. Matchmaking is more likely to put players like this against casuals in my experience.
The solution is obviously to make matchmaking more strict for people with higher MMR. Let's say in the top 20% or so. This way they can't ruin the game for everyone else. Behavior refuses to do this for whatever reason.
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They are doing the opposite. Reworking and buffing killers to get past 60% kill rates. It's only going to get worse for survivors.
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I think 4k at 5gen might as well removed from statistics
I don't believe this is actually possible when survivor knows what they are doing
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"Matchmaking is terrible and produces a huge amount of mismatches. These usually favor the killer since there are four survivors and a high chance that at least one will be bad"
Happy to be proven wrong on this, but it feels like teams are based around the killer's MMR now. Killer readies up and the game then finds them half a team that is in a lower MMR bracket, and half a team that is in the same bracket. Explains why games feel increasingly like the outcome can be determined early game depending on who is found first. If one of the less experienced survivors is found first the game can snowball, if one of the more experienced survivors is found first then there stands a chance for gens to get done. It explains why survivors are noticing how mismatched they seem to be to some of their team mates. The game doesn't seem to take the individual survivor MMRs into account when creating teams.
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Well they gutted survivor. Might as well gut killer and finish off the game for good.
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?
It's all perks and things irrelevant to most killers. In my time playing this game they have reworked GF, Sadako, Legion and Twins and non of those are real reworks. GF and Legion are beyond non problematic, sadako is whatever and twins just hit the ptb broken beyond belief. None of the bad killers have been buffed to be oppressive compared to just base artist or wesker. It's just pop/pain res tunnel and bad matchmaking.
Don't act like all the F-B tier killers are all of the sudden strong because of any changes made to them, that's just not true.
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26 more….but only if the killer is truly black of heart!
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Yes, and in the context of my post it means the killer brought a gun to a knife fight.
"Match-making fail" is relevant to this discussion. The other two would be considered off-topic.
You're missing the point.
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why are you playing a knife fight from the beginning tho
This is PvP game, right
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Genuinely need me to answer this, or are you just hoping I'll say something ludicrous?
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I'm stating PvP games are played with as much efficiency as possible from both side, generally
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So far it does not look like they actually tried.
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mmm.. not sure if I agree.
Sounds true, but even in competitive game modes I'm not so sure it's absolute.
Take the Killer roster for example; if PvP games are played with as much efficiency as possible, why would anyone pick the lowest tier killers? I'd conclude it is because people have preferences on playstyle.More likely is that people will play as efficiently as possible within their playstyle…but that doesn't mean they have chosen an efficient playstyle.
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But the fact is, more or less serious players (who want to win, "have fun" or just don't want to get demolished) are pretty much locked in most efficient playstyle
You can blame BHVR for making choices nonexistent due to balancing, but I doubt you can say anyone black heart or whatsoever
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As someone that plays both sides equally, I will say that 4K's are just so incredibly common now with how handicapped killers have become. Perks that allowed survivors to actually have a fighting chance have all been nerfed to the ground. I usually try and change my build on killer quite often, but it's typically the same cookie-cutter builds that are most popular that end up causing issues that OP mentioned. That would be something like: Resonance + Pop = 55% gen regression, now throw Grim Embrace in there or sometimes Surge/Jolt.
If I have an oppressive challenge that I need to finish on killer, sure, I might run one of those cookie-cutter builds, but man, it's actually insanely boring with how easy killer is running these builds. It's rare if I get a 2K or less with this build. Now, I don't intentionally tunnel, slug, or camp hooks for that matter. For someone that does, then yeah, you're almost guaranteed a 4K with that since survivors don't really have any counters to said things anymore.
The recent (mini)-patches and DLC saw some changes to Huntress (completely unneeded), the Clown (also unneeded), Billy (a change was needed, but now becomes too strong), as well as the introduction of Chucky and the Unknown.
Huntress: No "penalty" for missing hatchets anymore since she can equip up to 10 with add-ons making it a total crap-shoot. Good Huntresses spend less time going to lockers now and have even higher pressure from a champ that already had high pressure.
Clown: Same reasoning as Huntress really. No real penalty for missing his throwables. The Clown was already a pretty high-pressure killer.
Billy: Some changes were needed, but his ability to turn corners as well as he can is just insane. It renders Oni's and quite frankly Demo's rather useless. I'd like to see Billy's turn abilities tweaked a bit or perhaps remove the ability to instantly down someone in close proximity (i.e.: insta-down requires you to "rev-travel" at least let's say 12m for insta-down to occur).
Chucky: I'll give him a bit of slack. He's not inherently busted, but he has certain advantages that other killers down. Namely his size. You can't see him in maps with tall grass or lots of foliage (i.e.: Swamp, Badham Preschool, etc.). I'd suggest applying a subtle aura around him while not using Hidey-Ho to combat this.
Unknown: There's just barely any skill involved with this champion. Lobbing the "grenades" requires just a general direction and no real accuracy to hit a survivor. Teleporting incurs zero delays like what Onryo would experience. Survivors trying to dispell just get caught in the mini-cinematic should the Unknown teleport the moment his ability becomes active. I get this killer is new and new killers are usually over-tweaked to begin. I'd like to see the weakened state take less time to remove (or it will expire after say 30 seconds) to combat the lack of skill the grenades require and a 2 second teleport animation delay.
One more while I'm at it, Wesker: The only issue he needs fixing is his tentacle grab. There's still too many issues where he can grab survivors after they have vaulted, forcing them back on the side they were on previously (i.e.: as if the vault never took place).
And yes, again, reviewing the tunneling, camping, and slugging issues again. Camping is usually only apparent with killers that have range or some sort of dash. I'd say we should look at having base-kit Unbreakable and maybe even a longer Borrowed Time effect to encourage killers to complete the hook and focus someone new.
Some of these issues are certainly most prominent in solo-queue, but it's becoming moreapparent with SWFs now too and the comment "There is "playing the game," and there is "trying to be the only one having a good time."" is certainly becoming more and more true. I barely feel the urge to play either role lately because of how oppressive survivor is and how handicapped killer has become.
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Killer main streamers are still telling devs the game is survivor sided, more killer buffs on the way. The devs think they're making the game more fun for killers by doing this but it just makes killer boringly easy.
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They need more content for their YouTube channels. They certainly don't upload the games where they lose so of course they complain.
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Not only that but it also drives people away from the survivor role.
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If the Twins changes on PTB go through it's about to get MUCH worse. The devs are ruining this game with their desire to make sure streamers can continue their 1k+ win streaks for views.
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Oh, I know it. That Twins buff is madness. But it doesn’t really surprise me given how Huntress and Trickster were initially buffed. Despite some small tweaks, they’re still oppressively good.
There’s another thread circulating wherein killer mains were asked how they feel about facing bots (bots in the lobbies) and the responses so far are unanimously opposed to it. Some have mentioned they prefer facing human players, but all of them are likely to feel this way. What isn’t being said however is that the constant enhancements to the killer experience come at the detriment of the survivor experience, which is affecting the player base. I suspect fewer people (not droves but enough to affect queue times) are avoiding the survivor role, which is why we’re seeing the BP bonus for survivor now drift into the night in various regions.
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I started playing both sides because of dailies, first win of the day and Rift rushing. So my comments are called both wrotek by etitled killer and survivor.
Its either me or one of my teammates who is victim of tunneling or camping, its very common and unfun gamestyle i could encountered and i think it should be removed from the game.
But without slugging its almost impossible to get 4k especially with 5gens. For that survs need to screwed tremendously.
Im playing the way i concidered "fun" as a killer so im not camping nor tunneling unless i got 8 hooks, then i start killing (sometimes wait untill survs heal themselves or finish one gen, which means they do not heal). I can get 4k this way, but only with luck on finding hatch, yet mostly because survs made too much mistakes not only in chase but also with unhooking, healing and spreading gens.
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Thanks for taking the time to articulate your thoughts here!
I really like the way you breakdown some of the recent changes and new content.1 -
Ok, I didn't really gather that from the OP.
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There are fundamentals to survivor that would give them more than a good chance at winning.
A lot of current players were probably not around at the time, but years ago a SWF did 100 games with no perks or items and won most of time with 3-4 man out. Killer's knew what this team was doing and tried bringing the most broken builds at the time.
You can say survivor is weaker in terms of perks but you need to realize how strong those perks were prior. Too many crutch on them like killers crutch on slow downs. BHVR has nerfed both sides but one side is having a harder time? Maybe one of these sides have been playing too loose over the years and now has try a little.
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Probably because I chose a headline I knew would drive engagement over one that perfectly articulated my opinion.
Elaborating off your initial response…Looking at all the games that end in 4 Kills at 5 Gens, we can assume that:
- X% happen because 1 or more survivors gave up early
- X% happen because of poor matchmaking
- X% happen because 1 or more Survivors made a serious misplay
- X% happen because the Killer made a very impressive opening play
- X% happen because the Killer intended to win as fast as possible
- X% happen because of a reason I'm not considering at this moment
None of these causes are mutually exclusive; i.e. a game can end in 4 Kills at 5 Gens because of poor matchmaking AND because 1 or more Survivors made a serious misplay.
My post is concerned with the second to last bullet, "…the Killer intended to win as fast as possible." The issue, however, is that we have no way of proving player motive. The only thing we can really do is look at the output of every trial and take note of whether or not the number of 4 Kills at 5 Gens has gone up in the past year.
So I pose the question, "how many 4 K's at 5 Gens will it take to move the needle?"
Personally, I am most concerned about the bullies who are empowered by the game's poor balancing.
"To use this mistake as a form of aggression, a form of succession, a form of a weapon, thinking 'I'll teach them…'"
- Tyler Joseph, Neon GravestonesI don't care if these players make up less than 1% of the game's population. Losing to someone who is significantly better than you is not the same as losing to someone who wants you to have a bad time. Players should not have to worry about encountering opponents who want you to have a bad time, they shouldn't have to carry a gun on them just to feel safe (to use another analogy in this thread).
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I highly doubt any killers who can win as fast as possible can actually pull that off, honestly I suspect there would be far less than 1% of them, to the point you NEVER match with such killer
Also to be honest I don't get where you took "someone who want you to have a bad time", like can you elaborate what exactly is that, I believe those who want you to have a bad time would rather make matches longer instead
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4k at 5 gens is not a common thing in my matches on survivor unless someone DC's/gives up first hook even then at least a few gens get done. You're the only consistent factor in all these matches so who knows.
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I haven’t seen a 4K at 5 gens in hundreds of games of solo queue. Quite rare. This sounds like the matchmaking just may have been off. To not even get one gen before a 4K when in most games it’s 2-3 gens completed before 1 hook, those survivors had to be playing way, way worse than the killer.
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You're the only consistent factor in all these matches so who knows.
…consistently sitting on the same gen being Pain Res, Popped, and Grim Embraced while my teammates fall like dominoes, yeah.
It's comical you'd come in here thinking you can talk down to me because I am the common denominator in my own anecdote; as if I was even capable of speaking on behalf of any other player's experience. No reason to be passive aggressive, unless my post offends you.
I'll gladly turn on OBS next time I find myself in gen regression pergatory.
For the record, I'm less concerned with the scoreboard than I am with the player behavior behind it. Not much to celebrate about 4K at 4 gens, either—honestly, even 4k at 3 gens is pretty grim. But all that is besides the point; I don't expect anyone to believe I'm running into this "all the time," because I'm not.
BHVR has all the data they need to make balance changes without player feedback. They don't need me to tell them how many times I've died at 5, 4, 3, etc. gens. I'm trying to eject the human element into their decision making. I'm here to say "your data might please you, but players are still unhappy, and I believe this is one of the reasons why…"0 -
Uh, what is the "reason" you've described, it's really hard to understand what you are even trying to prove
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Sorry, thought I responded to this last night—must have signed off before sending my response!
"someone who want you to have a bad time", like can you elaborate what exactly is that
I could give dozens of anecdotes, but your best bet is checking out content creators who create videos about "toxic TTVs" or "salty survivors." Those videos should paint a pretty clear image of the vitriolic players who use DBD as an outlet for their own pain.
What percentage of the player base is made up of these people, I don't think we could possibly know. But no one can deny that there are players who are intentionally malicious and use the game to demoralize other people. It has been recorded, and it has prompted hundreds, if not thousands, of discussions on this forum over the years.
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Ah the one reason why some people avoid streamers at all costs
Honestly I don't really know? they've removed face camping and all that nonsense that gives black hearts the power, and the SWF that used to mess up newer killers having lot harder times due to all the balancing between killers and survivors, game seems to be going in correct direction
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tbh, 4-man SWF ops squad is like a 1 in 20 or more. You can play the most lax killer game and still have it easy. SBMM REALLY kills my mood often when I play killer; 90% of my games as a Pig are done by the time 1 gen is even done and at that point you could ask yourself “why?” I check the hours and most of these players are barely clocking in a hundred hours or a little more. It’s disappointing. You want a GAME not a slaughter fest.
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Sadly, many matches feel very one sided. It often comes down to who wants to win more.
I wish for the communities mindset to change and see a fun game as a win over a 4k / 4man out.
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