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Gen Regression and Early Kills
Edit: Accidentally hit enter early and posted this blank
Looking at Ruin, I think we made the wrong choice with which nerf to revert. We should have brought it back to 200% instead. That being said, that would mean the removal on death would still apply. That seems to be a better way to deal with the current hyper-fixation on tunneling. I almost think all gen regression should be expanded to this standard. Gen regression perks should not work once a Survivor is dead, as the Killer doesn't need gen regression when they are bringing the game to a close with a kill.
I think this would work best with the current Ruin, PR, and Pop, although other perks might need to be buffed to meet this new standard. Surge could go up to 10 or 12% even, OC and CoB could be buffed back to their 6.1 versions, and Eruption could stand to also increase up to 12%. Any other perks I don't have an idea on the top of my head, but they could adjusted as well. If you want to make use of regression perks, make sure you spread the pressure.
This is specifically for regression perks, and not slowdown perks. I think Thana/Dying Light/Pentimento still have their forms of counterplay (even if I think Thana should be changed back to 4.5% per Surv).
What do you think? It is good, bad, mixed, only should apply to X perks but not Y perks?
Comments
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I think we made the wrong choice with which nerf to revert. We should have brought it back to 200% instead. That being said, that would mean the removal on death would still apply.
Something we can agree on.
I would much rather have ruin give me more value, before either someone cleanse it, or someone dies. Than keeping it after killing someone.
Gen regression perks should not work once a Survivor is dead
Most slowdown perks would be terrible, mainly when you have it combined with 3-gen feature. Few % won't save them.
Just because it become 3v1, doesn't mean you won. If there is 1 gen left, you still need slowdown perks to win, otherwise one bad chase means you lose.
I would definetly make this perk specific thing, not global feature. It simply affects each perk differently and would make it very hard to balance. They are already quite bad at it.
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I mean Killers can win without any gen regression perks, so I don't feel this would change anything for Killers that actually win through skill. If they lose from 1 excessive chase, that tells me that Killer's best couldn't beat the Survivor team's 2nd worst. If a Killer only wins from a 3v1, then they likely faced 3 better Survivors.
What this would do is encourage Killers to only kill once they believe they have already secured their place in the game and can go for the win. If I have 2 people on death hook, then I can advance my win quite easily.That's fair that it wouldn't blanket work for all regression perks, but I most certainly think it would work for Ruin (at 200%), PR, and Pop. The others would probably need more adjustments than that alone, that's why I gave the suggestions for buffs.
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I mean Killers can win without any gen regression perks
Either you tunnel, or you have strong killer, or survivors are worse than you.
But when you get into actually equal match making, unless you have killer with fast chases, it will be difficult and getting into 1 gen left without any slowdown is quite stressful thing. That's why I hate hex builds.
What this would do is encourage Killers to only kill once they believe they have already secured their place in the game
You know what? I would be fine with it (most of those perk would need huge buffs), if you show hook stages for each survivor to the killer. Otherwise no.
That's fair that it wouldn't blanket work for all regression perks, but I most certainly think it would work for Ruin (at 200%), PR, and Pop.
Sure, I am fine with those. Those are good enough to take this limitation.
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What's up with the sudden rise of ideas to punish killers for winning or being in a good spot?
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Win without Regression/Tunnel, strong Killer, or weaker Survs - With this matchmaking, the last condition is very common (more than 3/4ths of my matches as Killer have clear weak links). I can't honestly recall the last time I faced all 4 Survivors that were actually my skill level, it's always I am mildly to significantly better than them (mostly 2-3 Survs), or they are mildly to significantly better than me (mostly 1-2 Survs), and rarely in-between. If they fixed matchmaking, then I would say this could be a fair point, but they don't seem to be doing that anytime soon.
Showing Hook stages per Surv - Yeah I think this would be good. I more often have the problem of 'oh shoot they were death hook' than 'garsh darn I don't know who I'm tunneling (it's clearly Feng and Mikaela, fudge anyone maining them, I hate you)'.
It doesn't punish the 8 hooking winning skilled Killer though. It only punishes the 3 hook tunneling unskilled Killer. It rewards skill, and punishes greed.
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I can't honestly recall the last time I faced all 4 Survivors that were actually my skill level, it's always I am mildly to significantly better than them
It depends how you play. Nothing against you, but from some of your statements, you don't seem like a competitive player. You didn't seem to care when someone leaves. Which is definetly valid way to play DBD, but it just won't throw you against tryhards with this approach.
I was griding for rank 1 last month and did something about 60 +/- 4ks in a row (not really, one game was cheater on The game), games after that were anything but easy. But I think that pushed match making a lot.
If they fixed matchmaking, then I would say this could be a fair point,
Current match making is the fixed one. There was a strict match making at start and a lot of players hated it.
oh shoot they were death hook
Yeah, I have that quite often. Mainly with Legion, because I simply don't track who I hooked.
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Skill Level/Competitive - I mean I like to win, but I like to win without 'sweatlording'. I don't like the comp scene whatsoever, because they encourage the worst aspects of the game instead of using their custom rulesets to discourage them. I can easily win Killer with 74% winrate (before the gens pop) so mathematically I should be in the highest MMR.
Fixed Matchmaking - I'm not sure when this was changed. I played actively back with rank based matchmaking, up until about Chucky, then my interest flattened out. I play here and there, but the latest tome is the only one I haven't completed on release since I started playing.
Tracking hooks - Yeah I typically only lose track against the toughest Survivors, because I have too much mental baggage to shoulder in order to ensure I win (These 12 pallets are dropped, and these 5 are unkicked, those 2 gens are the focus of the Survivors, I last saw the 3rd Surv at this area, one has Shadow-Step and Sprint Burst, but the other person has DH+Balanced and I just can't be bothered to track Feng A's cosmetics from Feng B. I hooked Feng 3 times, but idr which one got 1 and which one got 2.).
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I'm not sure when this was changed.
That's long time ago, few months after release, because games were hell and queue times even worse.
They made it little bit more strict few months back, but not so much as first version.
I don't like the comp scene whatsoever, because they encourage the worst aspects of the game instead of using their custom rulesets to discourage them.
I don't understand this. They created custom rulesets just to make their games more fair.
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I like this idea. If we buff more of all the other regressions like you said to compensate. Still doesn't fix the regression stacking issue unfortunately though.
Poor Thana, just revert it to the previous version. They gutted it so bad. In its best case scenario on Legion or Plague in the old version it was very good but even in those best case scenarios it still wasn't "better" than that times current regression meta perks, just good enough to be competitive with them and that was only on those two killers. It was only average on the rest the roster, and that was the previous version. The current one is bad imo even on Legion or Plague.
Dying Light is still bad. They need to remove the buff it gives to Obsession, now it's alright. Alright, not even great.
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When changed - Ok so its been bad most of the time I played through MMR. That makes sense with the rate of my growing dissatisfaction with the game.
Comp rules make the game more fair - I'm sorry, but what. I remember seeing a Huntress facecamp a player from first hook. I remember Blights and Nurses tunnel people miliseconds off hook. I remember seeing clock callouts and everything that doesn't make the game fun. Every comp match I've seen is an unplayable sweatfest where both sides actively ruin their opponents chance of having fun all for a $5 subway card. Heck, even the Huntress facecamp could still be done today (with the anti-facecamp Kobe) because it was on a hill, so the Huntress can just camp the chokepoint instead of the hook itself. None of what I've seen in comp is fair or fun. It's trying to duct-tape garbage together and seeing what falls off, while pretending they made the Mona Lisa.
To be fair, I've seen comp rules ruin games like Halo and Smash, so I'm somewhat poisoned to their rules. At the same time I've seen good comp rules like DOTA and CS and SC. The games designed to be entertainingly competitive (DOTA/CS/SC) stay fun to watch and play under their rulesets. The games designed with plenty of fair RNG elements (as in both sides can utilize them) are stripped of that RNG and also their fun. DBD comp fits under the Halo/Smash bad umbrella of comp for me, and not the DOTA/CS/SC good umbrella. DBD comp could encourage split hooks with things like 5/3/1 points for hooks, and you compare your total against the enemy team, with ties going to the fastest final escape. I've not seen those though, and only seen the worst rules imaginable. While I don't doubt a tourny/scrim setup with decent rules exists, the most common rulesets I've seen have been bad.
(But this is all a side tangent, feel free to reply to this but I won't reply again on this side tangent of the thread.)1 -
I can see it not fixing stacking regression in a sense, as I could simply rotate Survivors and still stomp them at 5 gens with 8 hooks keeping all my regression. I think this would still give those players enough time to at least feel like they played the game though. Plus it would fix the more egregious stacking slowdowns and tunneling combined.
Agreed on Thana. I tried to prevent it from being gutted back in 6.1, but sadly we got the worst possible version.
As far as Dying Light, I think the buff to the Obsession is overrated. It only minimally helps them, although I wouldn't be opposed to the buff scaling with the debuff (3% heal+unhook per non Obs hook), instead of starting at max power. It can be a real pain when taken to extremes with stacking it on top of Thana and Penti though. If I wanted to be a jerk I could 2 hook everyone and camp my Penti as Plague to get 18% Dying Light, 20% Thana, 30% Penti, for ~280s gens due to how it stacks. I don't have a good enough fix to improve this for Killer though, so I think it is better left off alone.1 -
I'm sorry, but what. I remember seeing a Huntress facecamp a player from first hook. I remember Blights and Nurses tunnel people miliseconds off hook. I remember seeing clock callouts and everything that doesn't make the game fun.
Those are playstyles, not really affected by rules. Rules are for perks / items / addons / killers.
Each tournament has different rule set and they are interesting to watch for me at least… I am interested in best players game can offer and how they handle things.
Both sides use best and most optimal playstyles and it's interesting to see how other side handles it.
I've seen is an unplayable sweatfest where both sides actively ruin their opponents chance of having fun
It's not about ruining opponent's fun. This approach is what makes it fun for them. I think all those playstyle are completely fine, it becomes an issue when you bring them and other side is unprepared (public games). But they usually play custom games, where both sides know what is coming.
I quite enjoy 1v1 and I would love to see that as mode in DBD, it's kinda annoying to handle it in custom games.
good comp rules like DOTA
Yeah, I enjoy playing / watching Dota a lot…
you compare your total against the enemy team, with ties going to the fastest final escape
Quite often I see comparing results in order: gens → hook stages → unique hooks
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"As far as Dying Light, I think the buff to the Obsession is overrated.
It only minimally helps them, although I wouldn't be opposed to the buff
scaling with the debuff (3% heal+unhook per non Obs hook), instead of
starting at max power."We could remove the buff to the Obsession component but also make only alternating hooks count towards the tokens. So if you ever hook the same person in a row it doesn't give a token.
"If I wanted to be a jerk I could 2 hook everyone and camp my Penti as
Plague to get 18% Dying Light, 20% Thana, 30% Penti, for ~280s gens due
to how it stacks. I don't have a good enough fix to improve this for
Killer though, so I think it is better left off alone."I mean I feel this situation isn't even worth mentioning as it's extremely niche. You have to be completely outplaying them first and then they can just cleanse removing the Thana component. Also assuming they cleanse the totem. Also going most the entire match to begin with having no real slow down. There's just so many things that would have to go just right for this scenario and even then you could be throwing the game trying this. Unless the point is just griefing? I mean back when we had the old versions we could do just this scenario and I never once, not a single time saw anyone do this.
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Dying Light ignoring Obsession, only working on non-repeat hooks - Yeah this would be a fair change.
Slowdown stacking - I mean it may be niche, but it also is the only way we see things play out now. If they stacked multiplicatively instead of additively, then it would probably be fine. This is the problem we had with Forever Freddy back when he slowed gens while in the dream world, and it was miserable. We probably shouldn't open up the possibility of that happening again.
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