Base Wins On Hooks?
I do think that chases and hooks are more fun than simple kills. I think 12 fresh hooks is far more impressive than 4 kills on 4 fresh hooks.
I’d support a win con of 9 hooks (one kill). Or even 10 hooks. But I’m a survivor main. Would a true killer main be satisfied with a game where you get 9 fresh hooks but only get one kill? Even is you knew the game counted that as a win?
That’s a thought.
I think MMR should measure thing like average chase to hook time. Average time looping. Fresh hooks vs hook states.
But I just wonder about thoughts of others.
What about thinking about it another way:
If you got 4 kills on 4 hooks, would you be angry if the game said you lost, or would you be satisfied you killed the survivors?
With these thoughts, I suggest MMR account for actual chase time and hook states. Looping time and other skill expression events.
But I ask the community and the devs to offer thoughts on hooks as a win con and state how many (fresh, not hook states) hooks should be a win.
Comments
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Well I consider 8 hooks and above a win, 6-7 a draw and everything below a loss, no matter how many kills I got.
The issue with this system however is that to get 12 hooks, or 8 hook people without getting someone out early would need massive buffs for the weaker killers and also losses for you when someone dies on first hook because then you don't get enough hook actions (or are you voting for hook stages and not hook actions? Because in that case tunneling would just be the same as always and I don't see an improvement in any way by that?).
The issue with chase time and so on would be that it favors some killers over others, legion has a relatively long chase time because of how his frenzy works, whereas a killer like Hag or Wraith only quickly hit someone and chase basically ends immediately. Therefore I cannot really agree on that system either.
I think the best way would be an improved emblem system and to just get away from kills hook stages in total...
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Telling people 9 hooks and 1 kill was a win would be just as fallacious as telling them 4 hooks and 4 kills was a loss. The win condition is already defined, the win condition has never been one of the game's many issues.
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Technically it has never been defined what a win is... Before the introduction of mmr you could easily get pips from that and therefore "win"... I would not go that far to call that fallacious...
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It hasn't been defined by the devs because for some very strange reason they refuse to do so, and even more strangely they forget that asymmetrical games have existed long before Dead By Daylight and have long since answered the question of how win conditions work in a 1 v Many scenario. The win condition is very, very clear.
The Killer is going against a group of four players that operate independently, can choose to work as a team, and that each have the individual win condition of escaping. If 3 Survivors escape and you do not, you have not won. If you escape and they do not, they do not win because of you. If the Killer sacrifices the majority of Survivors, they statistically, have completed their win condition by sacrificing more Survivors than have escaped. If they do not, they have statistically, not completed their win condition.
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That is just what you subjectively made out to be the win condition. From a lore standpoint you as the killer win when the entity got to see an interesting match, that can just as well be done without sacrificing anyone.
Therefore I don't agree that the win condition is very clear.
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I think any action toward the ultimate end should progress toward a win con. So if I get 12 hook states but only have 4 actual hooks, I might score (or even win if bottom line kills is the win con). But I would want any killer to score higher he he had 9 actual hooks. If I could ever make my dream come true and run a tournament, 4K MIGHT get you a great score. But the TOP POSSIBLE score would be 12 hooks on 12 unique hook actions.
I’d push for 10 hook actions as a win con (if a survivor fails an escape attempt, it’s credited as a unique hook action). That’s at least 2 kills and an impressive score.
But that’s just me, and I’m wondering what others think.
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No one is playing killer with the mindset that if they get more hooks, they win. Survivors don't even treat number of hooks as a win condition for killer.
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I actually agree with your assertion. But I’ve heard a few content creators state they would adopt that mindset. Part of my post is to poll those who would actually adopt that mindset and how many would just keep working for 4 kills regardless of hook actions.
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So if you get twelve hooks you get like fireworks and streamers as the survivors run out the gate? Nobody dies? Does a big banner drop out of the sky congratulating you on your apparent victory? I don't understand how you envision this.
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Ummm. In any format, if you get 12 hooks, all four survivors are dead. None of them will run out of the gate. I don’t think you considered the facts while you were ideating your sarcasm. 12 hooks means they all died anyway. So I don’t understand how you invision this scenario that is literally impossible whether my concept is adopted or not.
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Right now the game doesn't tell you that that you've won. So in your system twelve hooks is a win, but it still doesn't tell you that you've won. How is that different?
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The tally screen gives feedback and is based around kills.
0-1 kills is "The Entity Hungers…"
2 kills is "Brutal Killer"
3 kills is "Ruthless Killer"
4 kills is "Merciless Killer"
Survivor gets Dead/Sacrificed and Escaped.1 -
The lore is meaningless apropos the gameplay.
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Even if, but the kills = argument does not have a reason that is based on something else that lies within the gameplay, so no reasons vs bad reasons is still something.
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The more posts I read on this board, the more and more I am becoming convinced that 99% of people here have never played another videogame before.
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The difference is in knowing what designates a win (which is necessary in any game). The other difference is that 12 hooks is possible, but 12 hooks with everyone alive is impossible.
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I mean other games have pretty clear win conditions don't they? Starcraft counts a win when you destroy all enemy structures or the enemy leaves the game, Dota and LOL have the destruction of the Ancient. Counter Strike has bomb exploded, defuse or opposing team killed, all pretty clear and straight forward. Not so much here however.
You could go by condition that makes you gain rank or whatever, so you would have the old emblem system, or even by current pips or you can go by kills or escapes or even hook stages. But the game nevee objectively tells you what a win is.
So you are free to have your opinion but this does not change the fact that DBD does not have an official win condition stated by the game itself, so it is still whatever you make it out to be.
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Personally I'd like this kinda change.
Or something to do with spreading as much terror/pain/horror what have you before survivors escape, kills being a cherry on top bonus of like 5k BP per kill or something. It'd push so much stress off killer, but the other issue is would it make it as fun for competitive play?
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