Okay new Twins update is pretty good

You falsely construed the difference from pre to post-update Twins to be less significant than it is. It went from 36 to 16 seconds total, a 20-second reduction, more than 50%. That is meaningful. Imagine if Spirit's power cooldown was halved.

Ok… how does this affect my point of having it from 20 to 30 seconds while nerfing the regrow cooldown instead of those forced 36, as that is what makes them more playable right now, less valid and not more? Because it will reduce the overall time of Victor usage, which is supposedly the problem with it being 16 seconds only, without granting survivors the chance to forcefully remove your power for 36 seconds everytime you injure any of them.

And you can't literally avoid and kick The Spirit's power to not allow her to use it even further, like you can with the Twins. It doesn't grant survivors the chance to punish her for using her power successfully, either.

Whether the 10-second recall time is something they need or let alone something that makes them "bearable to play" is not something I care to debate. The devs have already confirmed it's a bug and that they too believe the 30 seconds are necessary, so I don't care to convince anyone anymore.

So, as the devs are saying the same as you, they are right, and because they are right, there is no point in debating if it is right or not, because it is.

Circular argument at its finest.

I would say banning those two combos is a good thing anyway, because both are quite busted... Background player is quite overtuned as it is…and buckle up for the people is quite ridiculous as well.

How would this "reduce the overall time of Victor usage"? It is supposed to be 36 seconds downtime after an injure, with your suggestion it is 20.

By adding 4 seconds everytime Victor has to regrow. Longer cooldown overall, but allowing her to access her power more often. Also, it is 20 seconds minimum with my suggestion, the max being 30 seconds.

Going into a specific comparison of Spirit versus Twins would be asinine

What is asinine is making a false equivalency and trying to still justify it after someone pointed out the flaws of using it as an argument.

The point is that after Spirit uses her power, there is a downtime on it, breathing room for the survivors. This is true even regardless of whether she manages to hit a survivor with it or not.

But if she hits the survivor, she can continue that chase with the survivor injured, and the survivor can't prevent her from using her power beyond her cooldown. Twins can literally be on the other side of the map while Victor is latched, which removes her power for 36 seconds, or kicked, something that you can do whenever she hits somebody or not.

Also, The Spirit's base cooldown is 15 seconds, and it seems fine to you for a "strong power" as you are using it as an example, but for some reason you want a 36 seconds "cooldown" for The Twins.

Following your suggestion would mean that Spirit should get her power back instantly when hitting someone, so as to not be "punished" for using it "correctly", I take it?

That's your assumption. One that I don't know where you get it, as what I said is to give the Twins a minimum of 20 seconds and a maximum of 30 seconds of cooldown.

And my point was that survivors can't force The Spirit to have a bigger cooldown for using her power successfully and hitting them, like they can do with the Twins. Because that's the problem here, survivors punishing The Twins for injuring them with Victor by making her cooldown 36 seconds instead of 14 (or, according to the change log of the patch, 18, as they in fact changed the return time of Victor from 6 to 10 seconds when crushed), not letting her use her power for longer than it should.

You can kick and shout or whatever as much as you want for all I care, as long as the devs don't change their opinion I have no reason to engage in these arguments anymore

You are still here arguing about it, but again, you don't want to specifically debate if reverting the ability to recall Victor while latched and maintaining it at 36 seconds is good or not for the killer because the devs agree with you, and as the devs agree with you, there is no point in debating your argument because the devs agree with you.

Say what you want, that's "Arguing with Circular Reasoning 101", while also assuming that the devs are right in this one just because they agree with you, when there is a lot of things they can do to maintain the change and balance it.

By adding 4 seconds everytime Victor has to regrow. Longer cooldown overall, but allowing her to access her power more often.

I still don't understand this. Yes, you would add 4 more seconds regrow time compared to what we have currently, taking it from 16 to 20 seconds, but that is still much less than the 36 we are supposed to have.

Also, it is 20 seconds minimum with my suggestion, the max being 30 seconds.

What do you mean? Victor would always be available after 20 seconds if the killer player so chooses, that's the only thing that matters here.

What is asinine is making a false equivalency and trying to still justify it after someone pointed out the flaws of using it as an argument.

No, what is asinine is trying to make it out as if I said they are equivalent. I used Spirit as an example to highlight a simple concept that is easy to understand: A strong power has a certain cooldown; a change to more than halve this cooldown is significant.

But if she hits the survivor, she can continue that chase with the survivor injured, and the survivor can't prevent her from using her power beyond her cooldown. Twins can literally be on the other side of the map while Victor is latched, which removes her power for 36 seconds, or kicked, something that you can do whenever she hits somebody or not.

Ignoring that we are now going into an asinine direct comparison between these killers instead of leaving it at the simple analogy of "power has cooldown, halving it is significant" I used them for, what you say here doesn't make sense. Twins can continue playing after the survivor is injured by their ability too, and sure the survivor might usually have more distance on Charlotte than they do on Spirit after a hit, but that in and of itself is not a difference relevant for the parallel I drew. Spirit is also 4.4m/s, whereas Charlotte is 4.6m/s and sees where the survivor is, but that's beside the point. Survivors also cannot prevent Twins from using their power beyond the cooldown. If the Twins player decides not to recall Victor despite being able to, that's on them. The kicking part is not a significant distinction: it simply puts the power on cooldown, it doesn't "take it away" in any more meaningful sense than Spirit's power going on a cooldown after using it. Of course there are differences between these killers, they are far from equivalent. But the simple idea of them both having powerful abilities that have certain cooldowns that need to be in a balanced ratio to the strength of their power is analogous.

Also, The Spirit's base cooldown is 15 seconds, and it seems fine to you for a "strong power" as you are using it as an example, but for some reason you want a 36 seconds "cooldown" for The Twins.

Yes, they are indeed not equivalent, and Twins' power is stronger than Spirit's, as it guarantees hits and downs basically every time it is active. I think it should therefore have a longer cooldown. Whether the precise cooldown Spirit does have for her power is appropriate or balanced is another matter that has nothing to do with the topic or analogy at hand, and I didn't say whether I think it is appropriate or balanced. What gives?

That's your assumption. One that I don't know where you get it

Because you make a point of highlighting the distinction that survivors can kick Victor after a successful hit, "punishing" Twins for using their power correctly, neglecting that all kicking Victor does is put the power on a cooldown, just like, for example, Spirit's power goes on cooldown even after successful hits.

And my point was that survivors can't force The Spirit to have a bigger cooldown for using her power successfully and hitting them, like they can do with the Twins. Because that's the problem here, survivors punishing The Twins for injuring them with Victor by making her cooldown 36 seconds instead of 14, not letting her use her power for longer than it should.

I mean, I can definitely see the merit behind this distinction here, that Spirit always has the same cooldown whether she hits a survivor or not. And while this is still not relevant to my argument because my argument only pertained the basic idea that halving a power cooldown is significant, I would if anything argue that precisely because you did get the hit the longer cooldown is appropriate, because you know, you got value out of using your ability. And so sure, maybe Spirit would also be a more balanced killer if she had a shorter cooldown on misses but a longer one on hits. But that's not here nor there, I can only point again to the fact that I didn't draw equivalence between these killers' powers in any direct way, I highlighted a basic, universal concept by ways of mentioning Spirit as an example. Beyond that, of course their powers are different and as such call for different power specifics, and with Victor not only guaranteeing hits and being able to chain downs in ways Spirit cannot, of course a different cooldown approach is sensible. Again, what you would be suggesting if you actually argued "they shouldn't be punished for using their power correctly" (i. e. hitting survivors), is what we had on the PTB.

Say what you want, that's "Arguing with Circular Reasonings 101", while also assuming that the devs are right in this one just because they agree with you.

The only thing going in circles here is me pointing out the same things I have through multiple posts. I am not arguing with you on whether the 10-second recall time is appropriate or not, or whether your suggestion would be (I didn't engage with your suggestion at all to begin with), as such I am not using any circular reasoning or logic in arguing on the matter. I'm pointing to the reason as to why I don't want to engage in the argument at all, which is simply that the only people I would care to convince are the devs, but they already agree with me. Whether we are "right" about this, well, I obviously subjectively think so, but I don't care to convince you or anyone but them of as much.

You add 4 seconds every time you recall him, latched or not, which results in bigger cooldowns overall.

So you are suggesting the regrow time should always be 10 seconds, even on recalling Victor when he isn't latched onto a survivor? Sure, while that is the first time you bring this up as far as I can tell, that would be a nerf for them that someone could argue might make up for the reduction in time before you can recall. But instances of recalling Victor when he isn't latched onto a survivor are rare and barely relevant, the strong thing is injuring someone, recalling Victor, and attacking again. The important difference is between how Twins are supposed to be (30 seconds to recall on injuries, 6 to regrow) and your suggestion that this should be reduced to 20 (10 to recall, 10 to regrow). I'm not debating you on why the one or other may be appropriate and adequate and balanced or whatever, all I'm saying is that going from 36 to 16 (or 20) is a significant difference.

That's why what you did there is a false equivalency fallacy.

You don't seem to understand what an anology is. Just because someone draws parallels between two things does not mean they are creating an equivalence. I won't spend energy on further explaining this simple fact to you. What it boils down to is this: Do you or do you not think that a more than 50% reduction in power cooldown constitutes a meaningful change?

Yes, they can. From the 18 seconds that would take nowadays to crush Victor while latched and being able to use it again, to 36

The 36 seconds are their intended cooldown that I was referring to and that we have been talking about and contrasting to the current 16 seconds/your 20 seconds all along. Whether the 36 seconds are appropriate or not is again another question, but that is factually their intended cooldown and survivors cannot increase this.

Except that you can do this on top of punishing her by literally doubling her power's cooldown

What does one have to do with the other? All kicking Victor does is put him on a cooldown before he's available again, giving survivors respite, just like Spirit's power goes on cooldown.

And that "balanced ratio" has to be 36 - 40 seconds without the possibility of recalling it earlier? It can't be having the ability to recall and use him after 20 - 30 seconds with other compensation changes for balance?

I never argued any of this. Sure they could reduce the recall time and compensate for that buff with other nerfs, such as endowing Victor with more counterplay opportunities. There could be a thousand changes to Twins in theory various of which could be just as if not more balanced than the 36-second cooldown Twins. My opinion is that Twins as they are now with the 10-second recall time are broken, and that a 30-second recall time is more adequate.

Oh right, I forgot about your circular reasoning point: The devs agree with you, so they are right and there is no point in arguing if there is any other way to do it.

I'm sorry, but you really are being incredibly obtuse. I never said they are objectively right, much less that they are because they agree with me, or that there would be no point for anyone in debating whether they are right. I said I personally don't feel like arguing over this because the only reason I would is to convince the devs, you know, because they decide what happens in the game. And I don't have to convince them of my opinion, they already hold the same opinion. Go and debate with someone else all you want, all I did is point out your mistake in the beginning, you came back at me arguing for whatever your suggestion for Twins is.

That's totally false, it does not guarantee anything

I said "basically" every time. But if you really want to go and argue that Victor totally has counterplay and doesn't basically always converts hits, I won't be the one to argue against this, can't be arsed. The actual point was that Victor is a stronger ability than Spirit's, and as such appropriately has a longer cooldown than her. I hope you understand that that is true. After all, if you could control Victor the entire match and hook people as him and such, surely you don't think that would be weaker than Spirit.

No, I said that survivors can punish the Twins by taking Victor hostage and making her cooldown way longer.

This I suppose is where we had a misunderstanding, because as I pointed out before, the 36 seconds are their actual intended cooldown, just because a survivor could decide to crush Victor earlier doesn't suddenly mean their intended cooldown is 18 seconds. Because, you know, otherwise the ability to hold Victor would not have been implemented.

Either way, this still doesn't explain where you got that, according to my logic, Spirit should have no cooldown. It doesn't make sense.

No cooldown was an exaggeration on the logic behind you saying that killers being "punished" for using their power "correctly" (i. e. hitting people with it) is a bad thing. Disregarding that the hit is literally the reward in itself, from this logic would follow that killers should have reduced cooldowns on successful hits. Because why should they be punished if they used their power correctly with a cooldown just as long as if they had incorrectly used their power (missing)? Although I'll concur that you meant Twins having a longer cooldown on successful hits (on healthy survivors anyway) if the survivor decides not to crush Victor. Which again is a moot point however, since the intended cooldown is the time-to-recall, the ability to crush Victor exists because a survivor that he is latched onto can't do things such as repair gens or heal.

So, killers should be punished (more than they already are) if they play good and use their kit correctly and successfully, including giving survivors the ability to punish them even more. Got it. Sounds reasonable.

Killers are not being "punished" if they use their ability to get a hit, they are rewarded by the effect getting a hit has on the game. The cooldowns and slowdowns and whatnot this incurs are a balancing tool. And yes, a reasonable balancing approach is one that creates an adequate amount of respite for survivors from such abilities. In the example of Spirit, if one were to determine that she needs balance adjustment, both things could potentially be argued for, that she could have an increased cooldown on successful hits or an increased cooldown on missed hits. I think the former approach would be more reasonable, but ultimately both approaches would just boil down to creating downtime.

Using your same logic, the devs don't seem to agree with you on this, as the only change they have made to her base cooldown is to lower it […] So they are completely right, and there is no point in debate if this decision is the correct one, right?

You really don't get it. I never said they are right because they agree with me, and would be wrong if they didn't. The kind of immature reasoning you are showcasing here is beyond my desire to interact with.

With this specifically, I was referring to the idea that it could be argued a longer cooldown on successful hits could be reasonable for Spirit. I didn't say this is the only true and right and best way to go about it, nor did I even say it's a conviction I hold absolutely or do more than make a throwaway remark on that being a possible way to adjust Spirit if one were to consider balancing adjustments to her. Besides, this change by BHVR reduced her cooldown regardless of whether she gets a hit or not, so it isn't even relevant to the matter of whether killers should be "punished"/"rewarded" for using their powers "correctly"/"incorrectly". Regardless, It isn't part of any actual argument I made altogether, this asinine Spirit comparison has long outstayed its purpose, you just don't get that the only thing I off-handedly brought her up for is to highlight how significant slashing a power cooldown in half is.

And for that example and argument to be valid, those two killers should be comparable and assume that Twins cannot be balanced with their cooldown cut in half because Spirit will not. That's why it is a false equivalence and not a valid argument.

But I didn't say that cutting Twins' cooldown in half would not be balanced because it also wouldn't with Spirit. That's an equivalence you made up. I only used Spirit to highlight that cutting a cooldown in half is significant, of course it does not literally have to be 1:1 just as significant for Twins as it would be for Spirit, but it helps to get a feeling for how ridiculous of a change this was.

And smart saying "in ways", as there is nothing preventing The Spirit from downing a survivor and using her power to just down the next.

There is a power cooldown that prevents Spirit from downing multiple survivors in quick succession with her power. But again, there is no use in drawing direct comparisons between these killers, that is asinine. My argument here merely was that Victor is a stronger ability, and thus adequately has a longer cooldown. And I only argued this because you falsely implied I stated that Spirit's cooldown is fine and Twins' isn't, as if that would be some "gotcha" on errors in my thinking. No, their abilities have different power levels and therefore require different cooldowns. Halving their existing cooldowns would still respectively be ridiculous.

And that "cooldown approach" has to be letting the survivors take your power hostage for 36 seconds by removing her ability to recall him earlier, of course. There is no other "sensible" and well balanced approach.

I never said no other approach could ever be sensible. I have various ideas for Twins, some of which would also include reductions in recall time. You are arguing against delusions.

No, what I'm suggesting is not letting the survivors literally double her power cooldown by taking it hostage in response to getting hit by it, when it already has a minimum of 18 seconds if they crush it (8 seconds to crush, 10 seconds to return), which is basically the only reason they are now bearable to play in comparison to before.

It's not doubling the cooldown by deciding not to crush Victor, the intended cooldown is the timer until the killer player can recall. Crushing is in the survivor player's hand to reduce the time they are locked out from various actions for. Regardless, this just goes back to your idea that a 20-second cooldown (10 to recall, 10 to regrow) or let alone the current 16-second one would not only be better, but make them "bearable to play". I disagree with this, as do the devs, but I for one won't debate you on this. Maybe you are right and everybody that's saying the current cooldown is oppressively overpowered is wrong, I personally don't care to prove otherwise.

If you really don't have any reason to argue against not reverting the change and making the cooldown as high as before, simply don't debate.

I merely corrected your misunderstanding regarding Twins' power trivia, you started debating me on this, saying your suggestion of a lowered cooldown would still be sensible and the 36 seconds not. I have not once in this exchange started debating you on whether the 36-second cooldown is adequate, gone through the reasons why I think it is, whether it could be different, or whatnot. All I did in that regard is tell you that I am of the same opinion the devs are (36 seconds cooldown is needed, with Twins as they are), and that I don't care to argue or convince you of why I think that.

I have always enjoyed their macro focus and the fact that you have to manage your Victor downtime and get good value out of any time you have him available for.

There is like 30 other m1 killers to play. The downtime does not detract from you playing m1 Charlotte. Only empowers killer that actively use the power properly.

You can still recall Victor when he's on a survivor's back, it'll just take 30 seconds instead of 10 until you are able to again. If you find that unfun, unlucky. I will say that Twins are not a popular killer for a reason

First of all, the cooldown is 20 seconds/40 seconds because 10 second added into regrow time on top of recall timer. The reason is that 36 seconds is too long. Even 20 seconds is still long. Sure it is improvement from 36. It would be better if it was 15 seconds. Maybe an add-on to buff regrow time could be useful.

Thats quite a bit of speculation... Also a weird thing to call him egoistic when he always tries to point out when something is busted for ordinary players.

Fair, but then we would need a full power rework, again... And I don't think that will be the top priority as of right now.

Honestly, I'm done talking about Hens, at the end of the day I don't like the guy or his content and I do think he doesn't care about average players. That end of that.

I don't care if it is or isn't a top priority right now. Im just giving the devs my feedback about why I hate twins. The main problem when playing them is the fact Charlotte is the borest part of the killer and you are forced to play her for 30 seconds every time you injure someone and they hold onto Victor. Im not alone in this thought either since I have seen plenty of ppl who are saying the same thing where they don't like the feeling of their power being held hostage by the survivors. This why I think Twin will never have a higher than 1% on average for pick rate. I am willing to bet after a few months their numbers will be back at 1%(I imagine their pick rate is above 1% right now bc of the update but that will fall back down after the next chapter). Another part of them I hate is the slugging part bc I hate slugging as killer. I rarely do it on any other killer, I rather get my hook than just leave someone on the ground. As I said I know twin is strong but that doesn't change the fact they boring as hell to play since most of the time you are forced to play a m1 killer and you have to slug a lot. The QoL changes did not change that esp since the 10s recall is a bug and isn't considered as part of those changes.

I guess the pick rate will jump up quite a bit when they realise how strong the twins currently are... But I agree that the twins don't really follow the promised concept of two parts working together, it is more like the gremlin taking everyone out and Charlotte playing garbage woman and picking them up. But then again I don't really know how to make that into a thing...

I mean Twin has always been strong. Sure they feel a little better now thanks to a faster swapping but that still doesn't change the fact that half of the killer is super boring and unfun to play. You can have a killer who is s tier but if they are not fun to play a lot of ppl will not play them outside the ones who only care about winning and that's it. As you said I have no idea how they could make Charlotte more fun to play but that is not really my job, that's the job of the devs to figure that out. My job is to say what I don't like about the killer and give my feedback. That's what Im doing, Im not even saying keep the recall since I know that makes them a little too strong but I do want the devs to know that no one likes their power being held hostage by survivors for long periods of time. Twins aren't the only killer with this issue as well. Singu has a similar issue where he is super strong but thanks to EMPs it feels like he has no power most of the time and is reduced to being a m1 killer.

I don't know if they are that much stronger than before, I feel that hard to tell since they are bug right now with the recall. If the recall wasn't a bug then I would agree that they are quite stronger but we see after the bug is fixed. Not everyone optimizes the fun out of everything. I think only the ppl at the very top do that and ppl like myself who are more in the middle prioritize fun over winning all the time.

I know its off topic but one of my pet peeves about DBD as a whole is its matchmaking system. I honestly don't play as much anymore because my matches are so one-sided and not fun. Whenever I play this game 90% of my matches either go one of two ways. They either me stomping the survivors, killing everyone around 3 or 4 gens, or the survivors steamroll me where I may get 2 hooks at most and they out of the exit gate before I can even kill anyone. Rarely I get a fun and close match. I hate one-sided matches in games and I don't play dbd anymore as much because of this fact. I have been getting way better matches in games like OW2, so that is where I spend most of my time.