Tunneling at 5 gens
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This is natural since they are competing seriously with each other. And we really need to talk about balance when we are willing to compete with each other. Therefore, tunnels and camps are both tactics, and even if they are weak on their own, they must be used in the fight to the top. This is because the survivor speeds up the gen due to its existence, and when the killer rushes in response, the hook area becomes thin.
Everything is causal, so missing any of them would be foolish in a competitive situation. And in reality, tunnels and camps are often only deterrents, and they rarely actually suppress survivors, at least among advanced players.
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We can continue this topic as long as we remain constructive. We do not have to agree with each other, but the conversation must remain in line with our Forum Rules. Thank you!
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This is exactly it.
I don't really care if I'm the first survivor found or even if I get out alive. I just want to be able to play the video game and tunneling makes it impossible for a survivor to properly play the game.
If a killer decides to tunnel you for whatever reason there is absolutely NOTHING you can do about it. Your only hope is to basically burn all the map resources while the rest of the survivors finish 5 gens in what would amount to 3 chases. There aren't enough perks and pallets in the world to hold a killer off that long in most games.
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Yeah, but those "tournament players"? they queue up in regular games too. And they shouldn't be buffed anymore than they already are.
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Easy solution:
Make survs have something to do besides gens like, I don't know, get fuel to them.
Survs must be pretty bad and/or the killer pretty good to be able to win while still there's 4 survs alive with just only one gen up.
I tunnel every match because of it.
Gens are done too fast because survs have nothing else to do, but if BHVR add another objective for survs I would play with my food for the match to become more interesting and even say go ahead and make Off The Record basekit.
I've used to be able to win without any gen perks, but after they tampered with MMR I had to give up a fun build for the Pain Res + Pop combo.1 -
Not enough to matter in this conversation. Those players are gonna stomp regardless. There is literally nothing you can do if you get them except try, learn, and grow. Anything else is more wishful thinking imo.
Still, you make a point and its true. I just dont think its enough to move the needle.
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I don't find a game with tunneling to be any less enjoyable to play than a game without it.
Put simply if the killer targets only one player then I've got extra time with which to complete the objective, I take advantage of that time. Most games involving early elimination or "tunneling" still result in plenty of interaction for myself with the killer towards the endgame. Sometimes more if the team have progressed the objective enough (3-4 gens). It permits me time to interfere with the killers attempts to hook the same person again and take some protection hits/aggro.
So the concept that it ruins the game does not hold true for all survivor players. In fact it barely holds true for those who complain when you dig under the surface a lil. Because they blame tunneling even when it isn't present.
Most of DBD isn't very interactive even when the killer doesn't "tunnel", but folks don't tend to complain about that. All they tend to see is tunneling. We've hit a point where "tunneling" has become a convenient excuse for not getting exactly the game that someone wants.
This is part of the "mentality" issue. You qualified "tunneling" as being one of two things, both malicious and/or personal in intent. Being eliminated early is not a personal slight in an elimination game, thinking it is… is the mentality issue.
Saying that a player is maliciously trying to ruin your or other's fun because they try and eliminate a player early in an elimination game is a terrible way to approach the game.
DBD isn't an outlier in this case it's just like every other online game. There are players who want particular gameplay and outcome and when they don't get it they project all their annoyance onto the opponent and/or teammates. You notice players who do this always use the same language to describe their play experience as miserable, their opponents as scummy etc.
I don't assume the motivation of a player who "tunnels", nor hold any hard feelings against someone who "tunnels" me out and neither should any player. Its just gameplay.
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They aren't going to stop regardless, they are going to bully the killer until they ultimately quit the game.
Let me ask you a question
Should DBD be balanced around average level players, or high level players?
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B is god awful. A sounds way better.
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Well I think this game trying to be 'balanced' is whats hurting it the most. It was never meant to be balanced and trying to force it is making it absolutely crap for, I'd take a healthy guess of at least 50% of their play base. BHVR seems to be okay with this since their numbers pop right back up for a chapter release. So as long as we keep playing and paying, this balance routine will simply continue as there is no incentive, business wise, to change anything.
If i need to answer though, average player. Anyone at the top will have the knowledge and know how to adapt to anything the game changes and throws at them, WAY moreso than the 'average player.' From a business standpoint, also the average player. Most standpoints are 'average player makes more sense.' But there are a few who would disagree simply because it affects them. That isn't a good reason for anything tbh.
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Well the game must be balanced at least somewhat otherwise people wouldn't play it. Imagine if every single game the killer won 100% of the time because it was balanced so heavily in favor of the killer, so you think it would be fun playing survivor? Probably not.
Now that you have answered the question, that we balance around "average" player. I will say i disagree, and its for one fundamental reason.
If we balance around the average player, then BY DEFINITION of balancing around the average player, there is something that, per the data, MUST be done. And that is to absolutely completely MASSIVELY buff The Nurse. Yes, the nurse. When looking at statistics from "the average player" nurse is always BY FAR the WORST killer in the game. As in, the absolute bottom of the list. This was only recently "slightly" not true, in that she was the second worst, per the data. But still FAR below, the 60% kill rate the devs balance for. In fact, her kill rate is usually in around 48-49%.
So, if we balance around the "average" player. What BUFFS do you propose they do to nurse to bring her "up to par" with some of the MUCH STRONGER killers such as, "THE PIG"?
Obviously i being somewhat tongue in cheek here, but you see my point. If you balance around the average player, we need to be nerfing killers like pig, sadako, and yes freddy some more. While we MASSIVELY buff killers like nurse and huntress. Also per the "average player" statistics, Skull merchant is the deadliest most powerful broken killer in DBD HISTORY.
Now, you can say "well nurse is the exception" but that isn't fair to the idea. If you think that "nurse is the exception" because she is "so hard to play" then you actually believe the game should be balanced around HIGH MMR players, and not average players. Unless of course your belief is that the game should actually be balanced around AVERAGE survivor players, but HIGH MMR killer players. Someone with those beliefs though, would clearly be severely biased towards survivors.
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I feel like this used to be viable - but ever since they changed the generator speeds, it’s no longer an effective counter-strategy. For example, back in the day, If someone was face camping - by the time they died, you could have pinged the rest of the gens and guarantee a 3-man escape still.
Now, if they camp or tunnel at 5 gens, it ends up being an easy guaranteed 2k for the killer (best case scenario) but more than likely snowballs into a 4k.
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I’m cautiously optimistic that the DS change will somewhat help. I just worry it will lead to an uptake of killers reverting to slugging again. If a killer is determined to tunnel you out of the match, they’ll just persevere through the DS stun just like they did before.
That’s the reason why I do love running BT, worth it just to see scummy killers try to count and go for the down when tunnelling because they’ve counted to 10 instead of 20 ha.0 -
”Can you force killers to play in a way that’s more fun for me?!”
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I answered average as you only gave two options. My answer of not balancing for comp, but for fun, would be healthier. I appreciate the long post and explanations. Im sure itll help someone out.
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If you don't balance for comp, that'll be extremely unfun games, even more egregious version of current dbd: who tries best will curbstomp every matches 24/7
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I've already given up on that. I ate 3 DS in one game because 3 people wouldn't stop healing and bodyblocking with it. If that's any indication, then I take it, my worries that it will be used aggressively have come true already. Great. If this becomes the norm, then the tunneling might just intensify.
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That's why I hit survs as they are unhooked.
Bye Bye DH, BT and OTR.0 -
Ok, you balance for what is fun. How do you do that? Do you do it for what is fun for the majority of players? Again, if you do that, then you are balancing in favor of survivors because naturally there are more of them.
So you must actually balance the game in a "fun" way that is "fun" for both sides.
Do you think the current state of things is "fun" for either side?
Killers tunnel survivors
survivors rush gens
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but this is a fundamental problem with the game - you should never be close enough to the hook to be able to hit someone during their BT timer. Yeah face camping isn’t really a thing anymore, but it’s just been replaced by proxy camping and returning to the hook.
For example, both the unhooked and the unhooker getting hit by Leatherface or Pyramid Head when they follow you back to the hook when you go for the unhook.
All the killers that complain about body-blocking while tunneling really don’t get it. They should be pressuring gens, but choose the easy option of pressuring / swapping hooks pretty much everytime instead.0 -
There shouldn't be a solution because it's not a problem, simple as
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In my opinion, it’s part of the game. Sometimes I will start to tunnel early like this. Not often, but simply because I want to establish early pressure and put the pressure back on the survivors.
Gens in my lobby pop so quickly, so if that match I wanna sweat or ultimately secure pressure in my favor that’s what I do. A solution doesn’t need to be made for this. It’s part of the game in my opinion. I don’t think we need a solution for every little thing.
In most matches though I don’t really care, gens are gonna pop with or without me having regression perks because the survivors I go up against are really talented, so generally I just pick random perks I think I’ll have fun with 😅🤣(Generally only 1 regression perk. My favorite is surge because I don’t have to waste time kicking the gen.)
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DBD used to have the stance that camping was a recognised strategy way back when. It was good when they did backtrack on it and introduced basekit Borrowed Time.
I do live in the hope that they will go back and take stock of the tunneling issue and find an effective way to tackle it. It would be good if there were some added categories to the post-match reporting system ‘tunnelling’ etc even if it wasn’t used for anything other than metrics. The game must know the killers that choose to consistently tunnel.
i’d love for the matchmaking to work like GTA, if you play in a detrimental way, you get put in the same sandbox with other detrimental players and you can ruin the game for each other and leave everyone else to enjoy the game.1 -
Well according to many, especially on the forums, bringing DS to 5 seconds was the magic bullet solution to tunneling and we got that.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
My brother in Christ if your not actively chasing someone and the unhook happens returning to the hook is literally the only logical choice, you have two out of the four survivors with one injured. The problem with returning to the hook is 99% of the time the unhooked gets left out to dry while no hook healthy meg sprint burst away or claud hides in some bush and Dwight hides in a locker. This would not work if the unhooker makes themselves the primary target after an unhook and can actually loop.
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5-second DS buff feels more like a "band-aid" patch, rather than a proper way to combat the tunneling issue. Since DS was nerfed for a good reason, due to many survivors using it offensively, rather than in self-defense.
- Not that I ever run DS anyways. I'm not the person playing in a toxic way, on either side.
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We really should think about the fact it's literally impossible to tunnnel survivor out at 5 gens UNLESS survivors decide to unhook him
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Some people are still stuck in the past when even the developers would say "do gens".
Even without acknowledging these perks, anyone who plays enough understands that maps have shrunk (giving the killer even less map area to cover) loops have become more unsafe, further making this playstyle more attractive for players. It's a shame that we have only a handful of perks to combat this playstyle, because we are practically forced to play like we're gen ticks in order to give the other 3 people a chance.2 -
what even is this
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It's a simple logic, they can't do tunneling and defend gens at same time because there is only one killer
so if they decide to chase other survivors/defend gens they aren't tunneling, and if they decide to camp/proxy camp around hooks just trading hooks will grants free win to survivors thanks to immense pressure-less time they gave
Lack of teamwork will not be an excuse for pure skill issue like this
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A very good point. Smaller maps are great for M1 killers, but highly abusable by high mobility killers, or ranged killers, since pressuring the survivors gets exponentially easier the smaller the map gets. Hence why so many killers has favored small maps like Dead Dawg Saloon, due to it being easy to pressure, even as a basic M1 killer.
This is why you often see survivors bringing offerings like MacMillan, or Badham since some of those maps are the only "sizeable" ones left, especially after the reworks of Haddonfield, and Coldwind Farm, which used to be great survivor maps in the past
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Maps being shrunk will make tunneling less attractive to players, because tunneling doesn't benefit from maps being easy to pressure
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What.
Am I being trolled right now?
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It'll make it more attractive because Survivors have fewer places to run.
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having fewer places to run hardly matters when hard tunneling, they can't go anywhere anyway
Ah sorry, I didn't understand that you weren't asked for explanation or anything, it's sometime hard to understand what others are trying to say
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This is a joke right? I thought only the devs were oblivious to this game... off the record into a decisive strike into a dead hard and bam... 4 hits per killer down. Anti tunnel perks made just for the casual fan base, not to be abused by higher tier players please.
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That is if tunneling does not play a major part in the kill rates. If tunneling leads to a significant drop in kill rates, something else will have to be done to pull it up again.
Buff Killers to be more oppressive in chase/reduce Survivor Counterplay? Remove resources on maps to make them more Killer sided? Introduce or buff more game stalling perks? Those would become the next thing to complain about after tunneling and slugging gets restricted.
An additional side effect of a reduction in Kill rates is a decrease in people who play Killer. This would lead to matchmaking becoming less strict cue more complaints of imbalanced matchups and even cosmetic sales would be slightly affected.Devs have to consider all the possible backlog of additional work that would surface solely from "fixing tunneling" and look at their schedule and decide when to slot it in. Given their track record, it would be far easier and more profitable to just introduce more anti tunnel Survivor perks rather than a basekit overhaul that people are advocating for.
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or gens might take literally 3 minutes each, eventually
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I've said this before to you and I'll say it again, you don't need to choose one or the other, balance decisions can be made with both groups in mind
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I mean I agree. Imo DS is a dumb perk that needs layers of restrictions and conditions to not be abusable and there are better ways to tackle the problem.
I'm just saying that's what so many were touting hard as the solution and that's why we got it. This is what survivors wanted 🤷♂️
I don't tunnel nor care if I am tunneled, I just hope this doesn't turn into a "give them an inch" situation and that the players are happy now that they got what they wanted.
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I think that’s the problem as you say, either killers tunnel from the get-go at 5 gens or they start fair and spread hooks, then default to tunneling when the match isn’t going their way. Tunneling in any capacity pretty much always leads to a snowball effect and an easy win.
I think somehow the whole gameplay ethic needs to change. I think anyone who plays both killer and survivor, is fully aware how awful it is to be on the receiving side of tunnelling. Too many killers sweat so hard, I think the focus should change to hook counts rather than kills. So many seem to think it’s either I had a good match and got a 4K, or I had an abysmal match - there’s no inbetween with match outcomes as far as the bulk of killers are concerned.with the reduction in map sizes, this has lead to a reduction in useful loops as well as map resources (pallets) you also have to consider that so many new killers have anti-loop / pallet abilities baked in. I think there’s on so much you can go with it.
I'm by no means an expert survivor, but I’m lucky to escape more than 20% of my matches nowadays (maybe I play too altruistically?) but I can consistently play killer with my BP boost build (Thrill of the Hunt, BBQ & Chili, Distressing) with no gen regression perks and get 12 hooks. I think the game just has a big learning curve for killers and there’s so many differences in how to play each one.I think killers do rightly so get frustrated when gens ping, but I think they forget that kills aren’t everything. I’ve had so many killers disconnect in EGC, when there’s 5 BPs offerings on and they would’ve still got good points, but they just nope out of the match rather than try to improve or think of what they could’ve done differently. It must be the game / survivors that are the issue, not how they’ve played. I think that’s a lot of where the issues crop up. I know they have to appease both sides, but it does seem to tipped for in the killers favour.
again, this was proved during the Lights Out event. This was supposed to be the most level playing ground experience since the game’s inception. But pretty much all the killers did was tunnel still and sap all the fun from it.3 -
Tunneling doesn't even happen that often. Folks that complain about it have a very very broad definition of what it is and apply it to every situation. While I think Scott tries to be an enlightened centrist about everything, this video is congruent with my experience. I could also link naymeti and ayrun vids where they have to work to make the killer tunnel them.
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First off, if someone is getting tunneled out of the game AT 5 GENS, then the team is going to lose anyway because they're clearly not gen effecient, because a tunneling killer nets you more than enough time to finish at least one gen.
Secondly, how can you even judge whether or not a killer is tunneling at the start of the match? If a survivor is getting chased at the start of the match and hasn't been recently unhooked, that's not tunneling, that's just a standard chase.
Lastly, It's not weird behavior. For some, it's an actual strategy to focus only 1 - 2 survivors.
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While I personally don't mind being tunneled because I like chases, I despise when people play nurse or another high mobility killer and sit just enough away so the meter doesn't fill and camp the survivor knowing it's not too far for you to interrupt and get a free down, it turns the game into a boring gen simulator with no chase interaction and ruins the game for everyone else, I think this type of behavior should be punished but not the act of tunneling itself I'm fine with that
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You can and you should, but the devs don't, they balance for the average player and most people believe that is correct. I just create the choice in order to prove the point why its bad to balance only for the average player.
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Ill bite. :)
I have no way to solve this. I've not really even tried. We as players know what is and isn't fun. BHVR has this info and feedback, so what they choose to do to solve this is on them. So far, I'm sure you agree that all in all, BHVR is not doing this part very well. Else we wouldn't have to have these lil discussions.
The idea that 'You can't balance for the average player because thats survivor since there are more of them." is a little lame and doesn't float well. Most play both sides. If you're going to say each player has to pick one side, then you go for it. But I play both and enjoy both well. If I state a view about a perk or character, its from the view of both sides. I don't see BU+FTP a lot, but I see it, and I get amp'd when it happens because I can now counter it as it happens. Yes I totally understand how frustrating it can be if I was really wanting to win and that happened, but at that point it's less of a game and more of a stressor. I know why I play my games and it's not to stress.
And to answer… and I actually like this question and hope others answer. :)
Do you think the current state of the game is fun for either side?
No, I do not think it is more fun than not for either side right now. Both sides have many things they are currently complaining about. Even if they were all magically fixed, within a few days there would be a number of other problems, perks, etc to replace. It is just part of the DBD ecosystem now.
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But what if hear me out, the killer brought: ANY GEN SLOWDOWN/BLOCKING PERK IN THE GAME
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You say tunneling at five gen like it's a problem.
You want to reduce these occurrences? Make it so 3 gens can't pop by the time a killer finds and downs its first survivor.
Every time survivors play efficiently, I regret not having tunneled.
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Still impossible because killers can't tunnel and activate slowdown/blocking perks efficiently at same time
Corrupt doesn't work because it doesn't block all gens and will be disabled anyway, pop doesn't work because you need to stop tunneling to activate it, same goes for DMS, eruption, literally any kick perks and a perk that requires pressure doesn't work while tunneling
So remaining perks would be PR, deadlock, surge, dying light, and merciless storm
Since dying light only activates up to 2 times at max, it's effect is pretty much nothing, surge and merciless storm is pure RNG so it's useless too, leaving only PR and deadlock, but since deadlock only activates after a gen done, it'll not work for "5 gen", leaving only PR, which can only activate once throughout entire tunneling procedure
Now what, three survivors having like 100 seconds + two chase + picking up/hooking, all while only getting -25% of PR once, it's already long enough to finish two generators, but then we can have all the anti-tunneling perks
It's quite obvious this is just a results of extreme skill gap between a killer and survivors, not even a balance issue or anything
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When people do things knowing its ruining other peoples gameplay, self coping methods such as "It's their fault their game was bad, not mine." or "They made me. Not my fault."
You're not alone man, you're not alone. This is the killer mentality. It needs to stay this way else… not much of a horror experience. And it's the only way most killers can win. And it's efficient! All kinds of reasons! :)
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