I think BHVR has not balanced gen-tapping enough
With the removal of gen-tapping, survivors got 8 max gen-regression events. Personally, I haven't seen this feature activated in any of my matches (due to PR+POP meta), but I think BHVR has insufficiently balanced removal of gen-tapping.
Previously, it looked like if a generator was regressing, all someone had to do was tap the generator to stop the regression - now the survivors have to fix the generator hard enough to stop the regression.
While this change seems to be a plus - the work of the killer is not immediately eliminated, I think BHVR should better balance the perks for gen-regression.
Previously, it looked like if PainRes gave -25%, but someone was around, PainRes would actually remove -25% of the generator. And that's it.
It's not hard to imagine a situation with a PR + POP build, where the killer first applies -25%, the survivors try to fix 5% of the generator to stop the regression, then the killer comes, applies another -5% by kicking and -30% of what's left by POP to then chase the remainder survivor on that gen.
In this case, the regression doesn't stop at Pop, but continues.
As a result, killers can easily bypass the limit of 8 regression events by Pop and PainRes, and regression is much harder to remove than it was before. I have the impression that people overlook this issue, and I think BHVR should improve the strongest perks for generator regression due to the removal of gen-tapping.
According to nightlight, this perk combo gives ~70% killrate, which is higher than BHVR wanted to balance this game around. And this combo should be looked for.
Some might say that "but you don't get full Pop value!". Yes, but Pop further inflicts regression and that playstyle I've mentioned above - first PainRes, then go to that gen, then pop it, then chase remainding survivor - is seen more and more often in games, especially on high mobility killers.
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I feel as if this is moreso an issue of the PopRes meta than it is the new 5% mechanic. I prefer the current way regression works, as it feels like a more worthwhile play to kick a gen knowing a survivor isn't just going to run up and tap it the moment you look away
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I have to agree here.
Im currently playing a lot more survivor to level my Jill to p100 and my experience with killer perk variety has been absolutely miserable so far. In about 17 games over the last 3 days, I had maybe 2 killers that didnt use pop or pain res. Most used both together.
Perks ive seen:
- Lethal (around 6 times)
- Corrupt (around 7 times)
- Pop (literally every game ecept one)
- Pain res (around 15 times)
- BBQ (6 times)
- Bamboozle (5-7 times)
- Ruin (in a complete hex build ( the one match without pop and pain res))
This is as bad as survivor pre 6.1.0. I truly see more perk variety on the survivor end than on the killer end. Its awful. Im gonna take screenshots from now on.
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It's more like to balance some regression perks to have in mind that regression is not so easy to mitigate anymore.
So -25% right now are more oppressive than some time ago, when it could be mitigated by simply tapping gen.
Honestly, I think it's a healthy change to remove gen-tapping, but some perks need changes to have in mind that gen-tapping is no more.
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You limit the amount of times you can regress a gen, of course people are only going to use the two that take away the biggest chunks, don't use more than one regression event each, and don't rely on the passive regression after the initial to be effective.
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The 8 regression events limit wasn't added as compensation for the gen tap removal. It was the other way around. The 8 regression events are not supposed to happen normally. That is kind of the point.
It was introduced as a solution to 3gens and stalling the game indefinitely. Make the number lower and you punish everyone, who doesn't use Pop + Pain Res or gen blocking without really fixing the issue. Because the issue is the combination of certain perks, that, although individually fine, create a build that is too much for average groups to handle (at least in a fair MMR setting).
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I don't see how you can bypass the 8 max regression events?
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Actually you are right, I've assumed that BHVR wanted to limit regression by thinking about some values that could max regress each generator, but I was wrong, it was for 3-gen, not gen tapping.
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It annoys me that my fellow killers have become so boring in their loadouts. Regardless of balance, any killer must admit that this being the default set up for every killer regardless of power and playstyle is pretty lame, and should be tackled somehow.
A thought that popped in my head reading this thread, was what if certain effects count as 2 regression events instead of 1? Probably too harsh a nerf, and I don't play ever play this combo cause I consider it boring, so I'm biased regarding nerfing it.
However that said, the changes I would consider:
- Pain Res disables when a survivor dies.
- Pop causes 2 regression events instead of 1 (The kick and the Pop bonus regression are seperate)
Then we might start seeing people being a little more creative again instead of a bunch of brain dead clones of each other.
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No, what you get is another loadout of four perks becomes meta instead, because only a minority of killer perks (and survivor perks) are strong enough to even be worth considering. You want more variety, you buff the massive amount of weak perks that exist. Also just make it so that the 8 regression limit is only ever in play when 3 generators are left.
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The question to my mind though is where should the sweet spot of strength be? Are we aiming to bring everything up to Pain Res Pop level? These perks are strong in isolation, and extremely strong when stacked… perks like Surge are decently strong, but when stacked is still not over the top, so seems to me a healthier target point. The issue with bringing things up to Pain res and Pop level is you end up with power creep, and power creep is the worst thing you can do to a game.
Regarding the shift of the meta, with the nerfs above, what takes the place of Pain Res and Pop?
Surge to my mind is a solid middle of the road to aim for. It's a decent upgrade over the regular kick at 5% while Surge is 8% in an AoE that saves the time of going over to kick.
Eruption has a limit on it's effectiveness due to it's 2 events per gen but for the benefit of a bigger chunk. Eruption might be on the weaker side now overall, but that's also part of the discussion.The whole point of balance is that there should never a default best option that you always take without considering anything else. Games are at their best when there are multiple choices of equal value to be made (the exhaustion line up in DBD is a great example, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing, Dead Hard and Background Player all have valid uses). So I agree with your premise that weak perks should be buffed, but by the same token, perks that are doing too much to the point they are everywhere should be given an appropriate drawback.
With these drawbacks, Pain Res and Pop aren't the automatic perks to run anymore, there is credibility in considering other options… and tbh, I'm of the opinion that it won't matter how much you buff other perks, while these work as they do, it'll be very hard to pull them off everyones loadout without some kind of nerf.
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And what could it do as perks like: Nowhere to Hide, Lethal, Corrupt, Pop, PainRes give very high value for very little (or no) expense?
And what would it change to make 8 gen regression limit on last 3 gens?
Players wants as much value as possible for little expense, for example:
^ nobody runs that, because why would they, if there is Deja Vu or Prove, even though both of these perks are like "it's something, maybe not gamechanging, but something".
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I do agree PR + Pop is an issue, but it's not because of the new system and needing to repair 5% to stop regression, this perk combo was already a problem even before that imo.
Gen-tapping got removed because of the regression event limit, and perks like Pain Res do count as regression events, so that particular aspect with needing to repair 5% to stop Pain Res regression, I have no issue with. Pain Res + Pop together just provides too much regression value from an overall standpoint (not solely because of the new regression mechanic).
Personally, I think Pop should go back to being based on total generator progress again, and also get a nerf at the same time. They tried to balance it around current generator progress and ended up overbuffing it, which makes it too strong in ideal scenarios (for killer) where the generator was almost done and one kick takes away 30% progress or more (5% of total + 30% of the remaining progress after that), while at the same time it's still not very impactful on generators with little progress (for example a generator at 15% loses 5% of total + 30% of the 10% left which is only 3% additional from Pop, which isn't doing much).
I don't have as many ideas on what to do with Pain Resonance, but I do think it needs to be toned down again slightly.
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This. I'd love to run Surge but it inadvertently hits high value gens near the center of the map and blocks them through no fault of my own. Survivors naturally pressure those gens(as they should) and I pressure them and it's a tug of war they inevitably win.
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I've had surge reach 8 regression events at times but I also have like 2 survivors dead by that point so 1 gen being blocked off is not an enough deterrent when compared to the results you get. That is unless you're trying to 3 gen, which may be why you lose the tug of war, and that's fine, that's why the 3 gen system is there. Not saying you 3 gen necessarily, but as an avid surge user this seems the most likely scenario why you have these things happen.
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You have to hold a three gen on certain maps. If you're playing a killer with no mobility on raccoon city and there are two gens in the center, some variations of Ormond and that one that's like split into two sections with a three gen on each side? I the it's a wrecker yard variation. If you lose those gens you just lose. They have to be defended.
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You don't have to hold a 3 gen on any map, but now I understand I was right to assume you were 3 genning. Don't stall for the victory by 3 genning and you won't have the problems you mentioned.
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Why are you talking as if 8 gen limit not happening is a bad thing
It's not intended to affect normal matches from the start, if it's not affecting matches, it is working as intended
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Yeah, you don't have to hold a three gen on any map. You don't have to win any games. You don't have to boot up DBD.
However if you want certain outcomes, such as to win or play the video game, it requires certain input. Some maps are just made like that. I didn't make them. I don't like it. It is what it is. The entire conceit of killer is stalling games and getting survivors to use limited resources. It only becomes a problem when it's excessive like with old eruption and skull merchant. Defending a three gen is a good strategy; I recognized this by like my third game of DBD.
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The problem is that BHVR has nerfed all the other alternative perks into the ground, and the 8 regression limit has brutalized surge\eruption and other kick perks that aren't regression perks (such as kick info perks). Essentially, viable perk options are becoming more and more restricted where there's only a handful of perks even worth using, now. BHVR just keeps absolutely destroying perk variety with all these perk nerfs - and the 8 regression limit has brutalized weaker m1 killers, especially. Now they need meta perks even more than before.
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Disagree. I use surge on my "want-to-win-but-play-chill"-Pig build. Its a staple in all of my m1 killer builds. The regression event mechanic doesnt come into play as often as some people say. I see killers kick gens the monebt they are able to and it doesnt block the gens in the slightest. Thats why nowhere to hide is still one of the most used perks. I think its just people optimizing the game. Thats it.
Other perks are absolutely viable. People are just too scared to jump out of their comfort zone.
Im playing random perks right now when im playing killer. Youd be suprised hoe much value one can get out of them because survivors simply dont resocet them or expect them.
M1 killers dont NEED meta perks more than ever. As an m1 killer main, I have to say that this is an exaggeration.
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Those are great ideas, friend. Im all for the slowdown pain res can provide. It just feels wrong that a perk that should reward players for spreading hooks, rewards them just as much when hard tunneling or camping. This would fix the issue.
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No map is made that you have to hold a 3 gen to win. Skill issue on your part, which would be fine, if you weren't trying to put blame only on things outside of your control.
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Especially on maps after reworks, some of them have tragic gen spawns and too see that you just have to play as surv with Deja Vu.
Sometimes I do 1-2 gens with that perk and gens are STILL very close to each other
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Apologies, I definitely should have mentioned this is at high MMR. M1 Killers don't have any issues at all at lower to mid MMRs, and still can do just fine at mid\high'ish. At High MMR, that's where M1 Killers suffer.
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"Skill issue". Scintillating discourse.
Map generation is out of everyone's control. When I play coal tower and half the map spawns as a dead zone I can't skill my way into spawning structures in a sensible way. I can't skill borgo into spawning more than ten pallets. When I play a killer without mobility and don't hold a three gen and my last three gens are on opposite sides of the map I can't skill my way into simultaneously pressuring all of them because I can't skill my way into omnipresence.
Chases take time no matter how good you are and if you are playing a low tier killer, that time is compounded by survivors pressuring gens in areas that take time to get to. The best way to minimize that is to either make the game a 3v1 ASAP(uninteresting) or use your macro knowledge and early game pressure to try and herd survivors into completing gens that are defensible.
It feels like there's a name for leveraging macro knowledge to make the game more beneficial for your side. Something that describes the ability to manipulate survivors into doing stuff that hinders them and having general knowledge as to what they are doing, where and when they are doing it and leveraging that into a victory. Oh my God, I've got it! It's skill. Chasing is not the only measure of skill in this game. It's the bigger part of it but you're not gonna win without macro knowledge as well. Get over it.
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I'm sorry to disappoint you. I face comp players (some of them are very well known) and content creators on a daily basis. On killers like Pig and Sadako mind you. Take from that what you want, but I play at an mmr, these players are playing at.
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You play at an mmr where you get matched with those players, not necessarily at their mmr... The soft cap opens up quite a big pool of players doesn't it...
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This is the issue with the 8 regression limit. It ultimately harms certain perks more than others. When you're limited to 8 you are much more careful about which 8 those are. It makes the regression events that hit harder with less events seem significantly better, IE Pop/PR, and harms the perks that used to be lower % values with more regression events, IE things like Surge.
This has not only caused a drop in smaller multi regression perks but also any perk that requires kicks in general as their max value is now limited (IE non regression kick perks, Dragon Grip, NWTH, ect). Do we rarely see the 8 limit hit? Yes..but there's some nuance to this. A big part of the reason we rarely see it hit, is because people aren't running "kick" perks as much now or the smaller % regression perks and are doing the more regression event efficient Pop/PR.
How do we fix this and bring the lower % regression perks and kick perks into more usability? Tough question.
Maybe make the 3 gen limiter only be active once you get to the last 3 gens?
This makes those perks more appealing while still keeping the game from getting drug out. Yes they could camp their 3 gen from the start while the 3 gen limiter isn't active and make sure the last 3 is a 3 gen setup, however then the limiter kicks in and the survivors win any way. So I don't really see this as an issue either.
I don't think think the issue is as much Pop/PR being too good, as it is that most other perks are just bad and the 8 regression event limiter hinders others that involve kicking from being considered as well. Then there's also all the hex perks not being considered because they are gone too quick. The hexes should be active from the start, but not light on a totem to be cleansable till the first gen is completed.
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And what do you intend to tell me with that?
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That those two things are not the same?
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Are you surprised killers use pr/pop when every other gen regression perk was nerfed into uselessness?
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Why?
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Because now hooking is easier than ever?
- Vault build? Nerfed a looong time ago
- DH? Nerfed, max 2 uses per match, first chase guarantees no DH will be used
- Maps got smaller
- Tiles got weaker
Why should killers got as high rewards for just hooking someone? There is no equivant perks on survivor side that gives as much value for simply, idk, doing gens?
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Easier does not mean easy.
If I list a bunch of the killer nerfs during that time as well does it now mean those gen perks need buffs?
"DH? Nerfed, max 2 uses per match, first chase guarantees no DH will be used "
Still literally top 10 meta used perk. You're acting like it's bad now.
"Maps got smaller"
Because they were completely broken with how big they were. Shrinking the maps doesn't mean they're balanced now. The vast majority of them still favor survivor quite heavily.
"Tiles got weaker"
Because there were way too many completely safe loops and still are mind you.
"Why should killers got as high rewards for just hooking someone?"
"Just" hook, is extremely disingenuous. Getting a hook takes skill and outplaying the survivor. It isn't holding left click on a generator.
"There is no equivant perks on survivor side that gives as much value for simply, idk, doing gens?"
It's actually the complete opposite. Almost the entire killer perk meta has some variation of skill, cost, or negative attached to all their perks bar only a couple. The same cannot be said for most the survivor meta perks that are mostly given for free or for playing bad.
Post edited by Blueberry on5 -
Still literally top 10 meta used perk. You're acting like it's bad now.
Because it is??? Just because something is used doesn't mean is busted and oppressive, for example are Sprint Burst or Deja Vu oppressive, bused and game-breaking perks?
Shrinking the maps doesn't mean they're balanced now.
Bestie, go equip Deja Vu, play some games and just see how gens are close to each other, on tottaly open space so killer could see you from the other side of the map. If this isn't still even "balanced" for you, then idk what devs should do.
Some examples:
And one of many threads about that:
Because there were way too many completely safe loops and still are mind you.
Okay then, idk, I'm sorry that there still are any safe loops in this game??
It's actually the complete opposite. yadda yadda yadda
And provide no example at all.
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What I want to say is, that lower tier killers can absolutely perform well even in higher mmr. Even without full meta.
Dbd is extremely Rng dependant. Some mistakes can turn a match really fast. Pig and Sadako are killers, where small mistakes can cost the survivors the match extremely fast.
Some of the comp players are also overrated in terms of 1v1 gameplay, so this doesn't help.
I won many games against people like this and even people that played way better while losing 3/4 of the matches, but because I got a headpop / Condemned mori at 4 gens done I was able to turn the match around.
Almost every killer is usable at any level in public lobbies.
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That's a bit excessive.
I'd be more for a change like this:
Pain res: deactivates whenever a survivor is dead.
Pop: back to 25% total, also deactivates when a survivor is dead.
This makes both perks strong in the 1v4, giving the killer a fighting chance when they go for as many hooks as possible. Both perks won't help when a player wants to get someone out as fast as possible.
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I mean sure, because high mmr means nothing, the matches are still quite random because of the wide mmr range that matches together...
Don't know about some of them, but the good ones like eternal and elysium will probably loop the average player for the entire match without even taking a hit, especially against an m1 killer.
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I had a fun match against knightlight where I kid you not, he was walking into a bush for a minute straight, while his teammate died to their head trap.
I would also barely consider what these people do as looping. Most they do is pre dropping and shift w whenever the situation enables it
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I mean his solo escape streaks are always a mess because his mates have no clue what they are doing from his point of view.
If it is the most effective thing to do then why not? Those guys know exactly what tiles they can and cannot play or which side is favored and what play has the highest chance to favor them. For them it is most about the macro game, but when you play them in a 1v1 you will see that they are far better than you give them credit for... I remember a video where a guy trash talked the pinhead they played against Ina tourney and then they played the guy out of spite and 4 outed him without getting a single hit on dead dawg...
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I know that the 4v1 is their strength. Haven't seen a strong 1v1 yet. Until I am proven wrong, I can't take these people seriously. Sadly this hasn't happened yet. Most of them seem to have a really unfriendly attitude towards their opponents, which also doesn't help. I'm sorry to say and I hope it changes. These people are, whether they like it or not, public faces of a part of the game. They should act like that.
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When people bm him he quite often asks them to put their money where their mouth is and go for a 1v1… at least he is quite confident in his 1v1 on every killer... How about that, I check if I have enough channel points and I pay for your 1v1?^^ So you can check that out yourself... And at least on killer you need to know how to chase, otherwise your 4v1 will also suffer a lot... On survivor you could argue that the macro is more important than the micro I guess.
I don't think they have an unfriendly attitude towards their opponents... When you look at other team games and how they talk about them in voice during the game they will always be rough and rude, that is just how people work in those highly competitive environment... The only difference is that usually the public does not hear that...
They don't really get much out of it for being public faces, do they?
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On a side note there is a 1v1 ladder and for example v1 and xeno apparently play that... So should that not prove their capability in the 1v1?
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Again, most of this is predropping and shift w. That's all. No Mindgames. That's whata dbd is for. That's why I find the LT to be the most fun tile in the game. It has gameplay for both sides.
That's what makes comp gameplay so uninteresting to me.
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I mean no offense, but competitive goes for the most reliable results... 50 50s are random in some sense and therefore overall weaker... I don't really see how a 50 50 is supposed to be more skillfully then just doing the safer play? If the skill is to last the longest in chase and how you get there does not really matter... Then what exactly is the issue with how they play? If everyone could just pre drop and hold w why is there such a big difference in chase time?
The point is in normal matchmaking those guys won't pre drop immediately because the players in pubs are really terrible compared to comp killers, so they can be outplayed, but that stuff won't work against a comp player so they need to play it safe, it is what it is, but it does not mean those guys are not way more skilled than basically every pub player out there...
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Sorry, disagree.
The skill against an m1 killer and therefore the skill at playing tiles is making the right reads on your opponent. That's what makes dbd fun for me. Finding out how your opponents play and reacting to them.
The way comp plays is reliable but extremely simple. Therefore not interesting to me.
People in comp teams can pre drop every pallet because they know that they can. Due to their callous and communication they will almost never end up in dead zones. They can also pre drop because they know that they can effort it. In public games, people are a lot less coordinated and will do gens at a slower pace. Because of this pre dropping isn't as viable in public lobbies. In comp, when the last pallet is pre dropped, the gens will be done a long time ago.
This is why comp is so different than public matches. It's also a lot less interesting.
I find the idea of comp in dbd ridiculous itself because the game isn't balanced for that at all. All the made up rules show that perfectly.
Edit: hard disagree, that comp players will rarely be outplayed. Some of them literally play worse than some public players. Sorry, not sorry.
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Nah dude ^^ I find that an argument that can hardly be made... But whatever.
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Agree to disagree.
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If you're playing pig and are able to play laid back, chill, and casual and still get consistent wins, you're not playing pig at high mmr. You'll occasionally get improper MMR because it's so out of whack at high MMR, that those people will sometimes get placed in a much lower bracket to avoid long queue times for themselves. I've seen Otz get matched up against players with under 100 hours played because of this. There are simply perks not viable at high MMR - even Otz agrees with that.
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I never said, that im super chill or casual. I play to win. Im just not your super tryhard sweat lord. I dont run the best stuff every game. I do however understand the nasty but strong parts of the pigs power.
I get a headpop every third match at most. Moost of them happen at around 3-2 gens ramining. If I can hold pressure form that point, I will win. Maps like midwich are extremely strong for pig due to the ambush being very oppressive on that map. Sadako is similar on the gideon meat plant. Just a lot stronger.
If played really well, the smallest communication and cooordination errors against a Pig can cost the entire game. Thats a fact for which I stand by with over 2k hours of experience on this killer alone.
On toop of that I ask you: How can I be lower mmr if I lose a game with Pig once or twice a week? A week in which I play over 20 rounds of Pig. How many wins would I need to reach high mmr?
End of the day, Pig is a lot better than moost people give her credit for. You do not need to have certain perks to play at a certain mmr. Thats downright wrong. What you need as a killer though, is a very good understanting of all the parts of the killers power, be very good at executing these parts, analysing your opponents throughout the game, having incredibtle map knowledge and last but not least a build that fits your killer. Thats why I never use pain res or pop over surge on Pig. Surge is a lot better with how I play her.
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