Do the devs consider nerfing the killer-meta?
scourge hook pain res
deadlock
pop
corrupt / grim embrace
how are you supposed to repair 5 gens with that, especially facing Blight, Nurse, Wesker, Billy, Spirit?
It´s just way too strong. Didn`t have a single solo queue game where we repaired more than 3 gens with that perks
Answers
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Be good in chase. To get a value from these Perks Killer needs to down a Survivor and hook him on the hook.
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- This isn't hard to do if we see that a lot of killers have anti-loop abilities or have high mobility with insta-down power.
- I have no influence on how my teammates play.
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We dont do this here. If one of the sacred Slowdown-Perks is nerfed, another one needs to be buffed to replace it.
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This is either the healthiest or second healthiest killer meta we've had so far. GE, Pop and Pain Res only work as a reward for the killer playing well. Meaning, your counterplay is to stop them. The longer you last in chase, the longer it takes the killer to activate their slowdown perks and the more likely your team is to finish gens that were close to getting done before they can be stopped.
The only problematic perk out of the bunch is Deadlock. It has no downsides, it works without any input from the killer and it has no counterplay.
When the devs nerf the current killer meta (which they will eventually), then they will introduce a new meta and considering how bad this went the last time, I'm not looking forward to that.
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I would like to see Pop changed in a way that incentivizes hooking different survivors. Pain Res. and Grim Embrace are very strong and reward you for not tunneling but with Pop you can just keep tunneling and still get value.
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This is either the healthiest or second healthiest killer meta we've had so far. GE, Pop and Pain Res only work as a reward for the killer playing well
Nowadays killers have MUCH easier games than some patches before - gens took longer time, healing got nerfed, medkits got nerfed, CoH got nerfed. Killers got perks like Nowhere to Hide, Lethal or Ultimate Weapon - perks that give a lot of value for basically NOTHING.
What do you mean by "killers playing well". Are you trying to tell that it's hard task to chainsaw survivor with billy at the start of the match with Lethal? Or is it hard to down someone with Blight / Unknown?
Almost all of "most seen killer builds" (nightlight) give approx 70% of killrate and I hope that devs do something about that, because it's just silly. It's not the same game as some time ago, killers have much more in their basekit - Alien / Sadako / Unknown can teleport, Skull Merchant has haste, broken, Wesker and Blight can traverse map easily.
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I agree, WoO should be nerfed with how overused it is with high escaped builds.
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Pop/pain res alone are not problematic, together they are disgustingly strong. I do not think anyone in their right mind could make a coherent argument against this fact. I would like to see changes to them. I have a suggestion that would help the game, but it is far too much work to actually see light. I think gen rush and gen regression builds are both too strong. I would like a world where things like bnp, streetwise, built to last, etc did not exist, but in turn gen regression was heavily nerfed. This obviously can't happen due to the work it would require, but having to do 8 gens per game is just awful and boring. If you do well in chase, the killer just chases one of your solo que teammates and then they get their pops/pain res procs. Since it is a team game, you can't just "get better." This is a massive factor contributing to the swf experience being 100X more fun than the solo que experience.
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I agree, this build is way too much for most survivor teams to handle, especially on a high mobility Killer. Sure, you can say "be good in chase", but how often can all 4 Survivors on a team run the Killer well? It's nearly impossible to stop the ball rolling once the Killer gets a down.
Even before BHVR buffed gen blocking, Pop and Pain Res were more than enough to get the job done in most trials. Trouble is, if you buff gen perks to give some killers more slow down options, they won't think "Oh neat, I can take something other than slow down into a trial". They'll just take 4 slow downs anyway and it doesn't end up encouraging perk diversity like you hoped.
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For example if only two Survivors are good in the Solo Q Team - you shouldn't expect good results at the end to be honest.
Someone mentioned aura reading perks - Distortion can counterplay all of them at once.
Survivors have much stronger & much easier perks to use. Sorry, but it's a truth.
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4 use pop? lol cmon now
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pain res, grim are so fair and healthy they reward spread pressure to different survivors like cmon
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Are you trying to tell that it's hard task to chainsaw survivor with billy at the start of the match with Lethal [...]?
No. It's not hard, it's lucky. That survivor can easily react or get behind an object. It's not hard to know that the killer doesn't spawn right next to you towards the edge of the map, which is why any experienced survivor isn't caught off guard by this. You have a pretty good idea which direction the killer will come from and because they do not have overdrive yet, you can still react to the speed.
Blight and Unknown are definitely strong in chase but both of them have enough counterplay not to go down immediately as well.
The current meta is designed to keep the killer in chase constantly. Lethal Pursuer + Nowhere To Hide work without much effort, which allows the killer to track survivors fairly easily. This however is not how you win games. You win by chasing and downing survivors, which Pop and Pain Res further enable and reward on top of it.
That is a healthy meta. Overtuned maybe (though, I'd argue that this is only a problem on the strongest killers and not that impressive on the weaker ones) but healthy.
If we compare that to the Ruin + Undying + Pop meta or the 6.1.0 eternal gen kick meta, I know which one I prefer. On both sides. Because contrary to what is often argued, these perks don't do anything for a killer that doesn't already do something right (playing well). Winning chases in a timely manner is infinitely more skillful than just kicking a gen or getting to the gen and starting chase.
I would also argue that this is not the easiest that the killer role has ever been. That was with the 6.1.0 meta. Back then, playing killer really was easy. Because you didn't have to play against the survivors to win but just walk around kick the same 3 gens for 60 minutes.
The funny thing is that UW is so great that it's not in any of the 6 most popular builds. But hey, the devs kill it with the next patch anyway.
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Killer metas have been nerfed a bunch of times. Pain res was even nerfed not too long ago. Ultimately I don't think it matters if bhvr nerfs the current meta, a new one will take place and survivors will still complain.
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Pop and pain res are inherently anti-synergistic. You pain res a gen, it gets knocked off 25% of total progress. Then pop it after for 30% of CURRENT progress. Because pain res happened, pop gives less value.
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I don't think they should nerf the meta.
But please. Stop. Nerfing. Alternatives.
Ahem... SBTFL.… ahem.... Sloppy Butcher....
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and even with that anti-synergy it is the strongest combo in the game. Which is pretty impressive to be honest.
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Hahah no not like that! Something like you get less regression if you keep hooking the same survivor and more regression if you hook different survivors.
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That survivor can easily react or get behind an object.
And what happens then? They are chased by the killer with immediate insta-down ability, sometimes some Meg without Distortion are getting down in the first 30 seconds of the match, you've said:
No. It's not hard, it's lucky.
It's not hard, then it's no skill. If it's lucky then it shouldn't happen in a lot of games, yet from what I've seen, survivor without Distortion is getting targeted and downed very quickly, it's just constant value, so can we even say that it is luck?
And if it's not very hard, and early-down value from lethal could be very constant (ofc not in every match), then where it is luck?
What I'm trying to say is that nowadays getting down in DBD doesn't require much skill so perks that require hooks shouldn't be as rewarding or should have some downsides - you previously said:
GE, Pop and Pain Res only work as a reward for the killer playing well.
When survivors have such rewarding flat bonuses for "playing well", they got nerfed and I hope this would also happen to killer perks.
Adrenaline? Nerfed.
DH? Nerfed.
Iron Will? Nerfed.
MfT? Nerfed.
We'll make it was nerfed before, but I think it would be also nerfed.Those perk required same level of skill as "playing well" on killer side.
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It's not hard, then it's no skill.
It's lucky because this has nothing to do with how good you play but only with how bad the survivor plays (and sometimes a map that is good for you). The video you posted is a great example for that. Look what all of these survivors have in common.
First clip: Leon, looks in the wrong direction (towards the edge of the map and instead of running, he walks. Are you going to tell me that there is ever any situation in which that would not be a bad idea against a Billy?
Second clip: Meg opens a chest and does not watch out for the killer, that she knows is coming because she can hear the chainsaw and the TR.
Third clip: Feng does not watch out for the killer, who she hears is coming and does not even attempt to react.
Fourth clip: Tapp looks in the wrong direction and does not listen to the TR and chainsaw. He also doesn't react until the killer is already in licking distance.
Fifth clip: Claudette is afk for the first 7 seconds of the match and walks into the open. Felix is running into objects and in a huge dead zone. The latter isn't his fault but it's terrible map design and has nothing to do with Lethal Pursuer.
Sixth clip: Meg did not watch out for the 7 ft tall maniac with a chainsaw but instead sat on a gen with her back towards the middle of the map from where you know the killer is most likely going to come from.
Seventh clip: Claudette literally stands still.
Eighth clip: Cheryl is looking in the wrong direction. She knew the killer was already close because she heard the TR so there was no way he could have spawned on the opposite side of the map. Now she only needed to conclude that there were only 2 directions from which he could come from and actually look out. Also she stood still.
Ninth clip: I have no words for that Yoichi. He was bottlenecked and looked in the wrong direction, a direction from which the killer couldn't come from because there is no possible killer spawn over there.
Tenth clip: Kate was afk for 13 seconds.
Monumental mistakes in every single clip. Just keep running along the edge of the map and look out towards the middle. That is already enough to prevent all but 1 of these instances. Clip eight was the only situation in which I can kind of understand how that could happen but still, if you know possible killer spawns, then you also know that running towards shack would have been a fail safe way to avoid this.
This proves my point. If survivors play bad, then you can get an easy hit / insta down on them. But if they play good and actually pay a bit of attention, then that doesn't happen.
The nerf to Adrenaline was too much. There were 2 things wrong, that a majority of players agreed should have been changed. It countered Freddy and it healed you off hook, which means, that slugging or picking them up, then dropping and hitting them when the last gen pops would be the correct play.
Defending old DH is beyond me. The most overpowered perk in the history of DBD deserved its downfall and it's still solid. If you want to see a perk that was butchered, just look at Overcharge. Part of the reason why DH was nerfed twice was that the pick rate was still too high, when the goal of the initial nerf was to get it out of the meta because it had been in there for too long already and was grossly overused. The official pick rate of DH at the time in high MMR was 75%. This is not defendable.
MFT became the second most broken survivor perk in the history of DBD. The strongest killers didn't care about it but it sure as hell did affect any killer that wasn't at the top and it broke the core balance of the game and showed why slapping haste on different things with no input needed was a bad idea.
We'll Make It is still a very good perk and I don't see that change any time soon. It's perfectly balanced.
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this has nothing to do with how good you play but only with how bad the survivor plays
Yeah, typical Soloq experience, if you play survivors, you have at least one of these randoms per match. Killer hooks them and all survivors are in much more vulnerable state as someone needs to unhook them and sometimes killer proxy-camps.
Defending old DH is beyond me.
I wasn't defending it, I was saying that if perk give a lot of value in exchange for very little, it is nerfed.
This happened to all of mentioned perks and I hope that this happen to: Nowhere to Hide, Pop, Grim, maybe Deadlock or other perks that give a lot of value for very little price.
—The official pick rate of DH at the time in high MMR was 75%. This is not defendable.
Something similar could be said about mentioned perks on nightlight.
This gen regression meta gives ~70% of killrate, where killers - according to BHVR - should be balanced around 60%.
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Dead hard is still a very good perk. I see it on 2/4 survivors lately. Adrenaline got a slap on the wrist. Iron will was way too powerful for an effect survivors didn't have to do anything for, as was mft. Killers have lost sloppy butcher(a common and reliable alternative slowdown) ultimate weapon and the mangled and Hemorrhage status effects in general.
A better comparison would be the terrible eruption call of brine overcharge period. Huge reward for just kicking a gen. The current perks require you to do stuff to get your reward.
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Something similar could be said about mentioned perks on nightlight.
No killer perk has even close to that pick rate, which is good. We do not need to return to a statistical chance of 1:256 that any one perk is not in the game.
This gen regression meta gives ~70% of killrate, where killers - according to BHVR - should be balanced around 60%.
The problem is that you don't achieve much by only nerfing each individual perk. Because what will happen then is that the killers that don't use these specific builds but only 1 or 2 of these perks will be more inclined to run these exact combinations to make up for it. Either that, or BHVR come with the hammer and delete another bunch of perks. In which case, we'd have the problem that only Surge remains as a strong regression perk. Not the best outcome because Surge isn't all that strong and the game doesn't work without slowdown.
The interesting part is that the only build in this picture that doesn't have Pop (number 6) is the one that underperforms statistically. My guess is because these perks don't help you when tunneling. BBQ activates right when you hook someone, meaning you'll be somewhere else chasing when the unhook happens. GE only works when you spread hooks. The same goes for Pain Res. So a fair nerf to Pop and Pain Res could be to deactivate them when someone is dead. That way, they would actively discourage you from camping and tunneling.
The 1 perk that I do consider problematic is Deadlock. I honestly cannot believe that it's still not changed. It was an unhealthy perk when it released (we had the very short lived hardcore face camping play style back theen) and it's still terrible. It activates with no input from the killer's side and it cannot really be countered (other than by only doing 1 gen at a time which is already a terrible idea).
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all of those perks require a hook. the killer only gets to use them if you let them.
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What a fantasy world. Popping a 55% gen (let us assume it got hit by Pain Res here) is worth 20% regression. 5% from the kick itself and 15% from Pop. But what is really brutal and not that rare: One gen gets pain res'd, another gets popped or much more likely that pain res'd gen is a fair bit away, gets repaired back up and then popped. Yea, those two perks are textbook anti-synergy.
If they really were this anti-synergistic why do people run Pain Res in the first place? Why do they not throw it away and just always pop that 99% gen? Could it be there are a lot of cases where without Pain Res they would not even get to pop it?
The changes to Pain Res and Pop made them more synergistic and new Grim Embrace plays well into it.
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A lot of gens you would not get to pop if it were not for Pain Res. In a lot of cases Pain Res allows the Pop to happen in the first place. Yes, those two perks are textbook anti-synergy.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
Even if the gen was at near 100% complete, lets say 99%. Pain res knocks off 25% then kick knocks off 5% then pop does 30% of current. Which means the gen goes from 99% complete to 48%. So it knocks off around half. But thats 2 regression events, meaning you have 6 left on that gen, and on top of that pain res is limited, and pop requires hooks.
It is still one of the healthier metas we have had because it requires you to hook multiple different survivors to get use out of pain res and grim embrace.
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See, you are pointing out the truth of the matter, but in the way you think. Yeah, pain res allows the pop. Isn't it a bit nuts that a perk that knocks of 25% of a gen has only 4 uses, requires you to go to a specific hook that is dictated by RNG, and requires you to go after multiple different survivors, still often means you often can't physically get to the gen in time to defend it, even if you know exactly which gen it was hit by?
People really underestimate how much time it takes a killer to do anything. Just downing a survivor and hook them takes so much time.
2.7 wipe animation
3 second pickup animation
~8 seconds to walk to a hook
1.5 second hook animation.
Thats 15.2 seconds just to hook the guy. That doesn't even factor in a chase.
Post edited by Reinami on5 -
facts. Like how does that make sense….
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While I agree with all your points here, including about Deadlock. Deadlock is currently a required unhealthy perk as it's one of the few counters to just pre dropping pallets which also has no counter play for most killers, hence why those teams do it. We can only fix Deadlock once "most" loops are playable for m1 killers when the pallet is dropped, and we're way off from there.
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Well, let's nerf into the ground all exhaustion perks, so survivors can't get free distance in chase.
With that I am fine with nerfing all slowdown perks.
I highly doubt that would be welcomed change by anyone tho.
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Well, 3-gen feature destroyed most alternatives. Wanna use eruption/surge? Unlucky…
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The build with the highest kill rate (almost 72% !!) has pain res and pop in it.
But man, it´s anti synergistic.
Like John McEnroe said: "YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!"
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Just listen to the dev's, they were very clear with what they want out of the game.
Solo survivors should escape/win 40% of the time.
4 man SWF should win 48 to 50 percent of the time. 3 out equals win. With the ability to tie (2 out) in the remaining 50 percent.
Killers should win 50 to 60 percent of the time (three kills), but also have the ability to tie (2 escape) in the remaining 50 to 40 percent of theipercent.
Statistically a tie is not a loss regardless of how it makes you "feel".
As a survivor if you are escaping 40% of your matches you are playing well.
As a killer if you are winning 50 to 60% of your matches you are playing well.
"Feeling" a way and actual data are two different things. I gurantee that every solo survivor main who has responded to this thread has a 38% to 45% escape rate. I can also guarantee that every killer main on this thread has a 50% to 70% win rate.
If you don't like those numbers, play a different game.
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AOWF, where you have that data from?
Seems likeyou feel it right?
Be careful with your arrogant phrasing. It makes you look like a fool
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Nice try, but we know kill rates (Nightlight and data posted by devs) and we had quite a few statements from devs.
This has nothing to do with feelings.
Be careful with your "gotcha moment"… It definetly doesn't seem smart, when it's incorrect.3 -
he wrote: " I gurantee that every solo survivor main who has responded to this thread has a 38% to 45% escape rate"
is this facts? When yes, how does he know it?
it´s arrogant and your try is hilarious
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That's the newest data as far I know we have and this is from BHVR.
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To be fair, they're not saying a killrate of 60%, but a winrate of 60%, which are different things.
Which does seem like a confusion in their post, reading it myself. There is a difference between those two numbers, and it matters quite a bit for conversations like this.
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Yeah, but quote he has issue is talking about escape rate.
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Popular doesn't mean OP.
Survivors are escaping just fine against this build if they are actually good at the game.If you don't want to worry about your teammates skill level, then why are you playing a team based game? Especially solo?
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
72% kill rate is not op?
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Not when it's less than 1% of the time. That's not enough of a sample size.
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wdym? Almost every killer in high MMR today plays this build or almost this build. Maybe there is one switch in a perk.
So: wdym?
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Is 63-65% better for you?
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You used the highest percent as the example which is only 1 version of the build which has a less than 1% usage rate.
For your argument to potentially hold that'd have to be the overall average for the build (which it's not).
Taking all the builds available in the top 20 and removing the ones without those perks leaves us with 18. Averaging those kill rates out, the result is 60.77% at the time of writing this.
That's almost exactly where its supposed to be. So as far as we have data for the build is in fact not OP.
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
60.77%, so more like 60-61% actually using what we have access to if we're talking overall average. See above post for more details if interested.
But for the top 2 only yeah that's about right.
Post edited by MrPenguin on4 -
As a result of the obsolescence of all the perks on the agenda in the last 6 months, could they be nerfed because even CoB is one of the killer decent perks and 70% of players are bringing it in?
ps: CoB has been weakened by past nerfs to Gen Regression Spead from 200% to 125%, poor perk given a 75% weakening by a "small numerical change" according to BhVR.
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If these stats are from nightlight, I'm assuming you're talking about the bbq/pop/PR/nwh build with 71.2% KR. Its probably also worth mentioning that a build with just the unknowns 3 perks has the same number. Guess we should nerf all of those into ground too?
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The devs make most of the meta gen perks locked behind spreading out hooks and people still aren't happy. PR/Pop is definitely too much on the stronger killers, but what is there to even use for killers regression wise? Grim could use some slight number nerfs + dms interaction removed. Corrupt is always going to be meta because without it your first chase can just be game over due to rng. Deadlock honestly isn't even being used that much anymore because it just means that gen can't be hit with pr/pop.
The 8 regression token system makes all the other options too unappealing. You can say they're overused or obnoxious yet they're the healthiest regression perks we've had in a while that encourage killers to take chase over just going afk in a 3 gen.
- Surge - only works on basic attacks for 8% and relies on you actually downing someone near gens being worked on
- Eruption - 12% to multiple gens, but burns 2 tokens for one use.
- COB - 130% over 60 seconds + info. The total regression it can do was nerfed by 41%
- Overcharge - 85%-130% in 30 seconds. The total regression it can do was nerfed by 61%
- DMS - Need to combine it with specific perks to get value or play hyper mobile killers/artist
- Ruin - just give up on this if you're not doing a full totem build or playing the very strong killers
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