Love the game, not the community. Please discuss.
I've played DBD on and off for years. I saw it launch on twitch and knew it was something special. Clocked in around 2000 hours gametime. I think I would never have stopped playing it and had far more gametime if the community was less toxic. It literally drives me away from the game despite my love for it several times now.
I have a friend who is new to DBD and he is in the same boat. Loves the game, not the people. They want to enjoy the game but the bad actors stop them from doing so. They, on the other hand, do their best to be a decent player that takes into consideration what the other side is feeling and then is disappointed by and bummed out by others. They are a really good friend and an awesome person who just wants everyone to have a good time.
I kinda hit my threshold for dealing with players again this morning. Doing some killer quests as Freddy. Survivors were constantly giving up. I did by best for each situation: basically forcing the people who want to just die and move on to next game to live as long as possible while making sure everyone who actually played got to survive. I'm not sure what else I can do to make it a "just" game.
In one match, a player basically asked to die by pointing to a hook repeatedly. After they died and last survivor was given hatch, I headed over to their twitch channel and asked what was up. He said players started dying (I think he meant hooked) early in the game, he doesn't like Midwich, and "I don't know" as the reasons he committed sudoku. It just feels so… lame. Selfish. Shallow. I don't mean to insult them, it's just the impression I get. There are four other players counting on you to hold up your end of the experience. Giving up over nothing just sucks for everyone, yourself included.
The last nail in the coffin was the after-game lobby of my latest match. The game ended and I went to type in GG when three out of the four players started saying things like "trash player," "reported," "tunneler," etc. I asked who I tunneled as I consider myself a chiller (chill killer, trademark pending by fore mentioned friend). Someone said they were as I hooked them three times. Am I… not suppose to hook people three times? I thought that was kind of the point. I apologized and said I did not realize I was tunneling on the off-chance I actually did and left it at that, but it puts such a bad taste in my mouth.
People of the internet: are you okay? Do you need a hug? I will give you one, free of charge. It's a game. It's suppose to be entertaining. It's suppose to be fun. Wouldn't you find it more enjoyable if you didn't constantly spout out toxic statements when things don't go your way while maintaining this false sense of superiority? We're all gamers playing a cool game together. Just because there is "killer vs. survivor" does not mean you need to lob insults at the other side as if they were somehow a bad person for playing the game.
Personally I would love a karma system or something. No idea how one would designed such a thing without players abusing it, I am not smart enough to conceive such a system. It would be nice if there was a way to filter out people who spoil the mood, the fun, the game as a whole and just play with people who are awesome. I don't remember what game, but people who cheat on it are moved to a server where only cheaters go so they have to put up with each other. Would love the same for DBD and toxicity.
Comments
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Define bad actors/apples, in case there's a few who aren't understanding, plz. :)
I know you have examples, but unless one defines things specifically, I've had 'bad apples' just word game everything.
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You can't blame the community without blaming the game, since the game created and shaped the community. Judging by your story, you are a pure killer main, so no wonder you have no idea why playing survivor can be exhausting and frustrating sometimes, especially in soloQ, especially in the current state of the game. If you really want to understand what is going on - play a few hundred soloQ survivor matches, you know, to see the other side of the story.
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There is nothing you can do to stop people from being dicks. I had to learn that lesson the hard way too. When it happens, try to stay calm, report them and don't go out of your way to be a jerk. That's really the best advice I can give you.
Most people in this community really aren't that bad though. Many of us are quite friendly. The amount of positive interactions I've had in this game exceeds that of any other online game I've played so far.
I think one reason for this community's bad reputation is that we only remember the negative things and not forget all the nice moments.
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The people of the internet are not okay, and DBD is no exception. Only suggestion I can make is to pick your spaces and your battles. Close endgame chat, or just leave a ggs and then move on immediately. That way you don't concern yourself with any postgame salt. I dunno if I'd call the community toxic personally. There are certainly toxic individuals but in my experience they are few and far between. I think it helps to just remind yourself that at the end of the day it's just a game and nothing is personal. These folks don't know you from a bar of soap, and vice versa, and the majority aren't out to intentionally give you a bad time.
Re the streamer, you said he asked to be hooked and the last person then got hatch. So I'm guessing it was just the two of them left when he asked to be hooked? Lots of killers will slug the third survivor and then search for the 4th, so if the game was a clear loss he may have just wanted to move on without all that shenanigans. In that situation I don't think he was too unreasonable in asking.
I've said before that I think a rep system would be good. Instead of just focusing on punishing bad behaviour, reward good behaviour. Have the thumbs up in endgame mean something. Give and gain points, get rewards, etc. Exclude swf for obvious reasons (sorry guys).
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I think if you love the game that you have to not love the community, because the community almost universally hate the game.
They hate playing killer, they hate playing survivor, they hate playing soloqueue, they hate playing against x killer, they hate getting caught first, they hate tunneling/camping killers, they hate other survivors, they hate not being able to DC without a penalty.
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Exactly this.
As for a rep system, if the thumbs up gave some extra BP's as a lil bump that'd be a good idea.
Obviously it would have to exclude SWF but how they'd go about that I'm unsure. It can't be in any way punitive as there are many examples of streamers misusing the report system simply because they lost and are angry about it.
Community policing is only as good as the community and something tells me, like many online games, the community would kinda suck at it. Given the anonymity of the internet and the negativity it often permits.
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I'm sorry you've had a frustrating experience. It can be unpleasant but that's because humans are involved and humans can be unpleasant. Honestly I think what has hurt the game and the community the most is there is a clear divide, bias, and judgment that the community created itself. You use NOED? Trash. You main meg? Trash. You nodded at me on hook? Trash. You got a flashlight save? Trash.
Even in the forums on posts or replies it's so clear who is a "main" of something because there is a clear disconnect that can be downright rude and nasty for no reason. Some don't even bother trying to understand the struggles of the other side and just shoot out buzz words or phrases like, "toxic, entitled, git gud, gg ez" etc. People in the game are very quick to put others in boxes. You're either one or the other. People are quick to judge or assume based on the character you pick or perks you use. The community divided itself and then gets mad at what they divded.
I wouldn't say it's a super "toxic" community but it's a very judgemental community that isn't typically willing to empathize with the "other side".
I hope you have better games <3
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The last sentence here, is something very true. We do remember the negative moments more than the positive ones, it seems to be human nature and that's pretty sad, we have a tremendous amount of lovely people in the community and I am sure they far outweigh the bad actors, just that our minds automatically focus on the negative ones.
Unfortunately, the internet allows people to behave in a specific way without repercussions and those that are inclined, take advantage of that fact.
I'd love if we can remove toxicity from gaming in general, they are supposed to be fun after all. Am welcome to hearing all ideas that people have for making this happen or at least improving how things feel.
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I think it would be great if the more egregious ways of making someone's match terrible were tackled. Things that aren't required for normal gameplay such as deliberate 4 minute bleedouts or tbagging at the gates for 2 minutes shouldn't be a thing.
Another good idea would make "give props" actually mean something. Give a decent bloodpoint bonus (like 10-25k) for every single Give Props you receive, and make it a seperate button from report when you hover over someone's name. This would give people a push to treat others well in the game and outside it, as they'd potentially get a small material reward for doing so.
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- A few suggestions
- Good behavior system that rewards people for not being an ass. Like more BP or shards. (Can only kudos the other side or non party members)
- Make the report button actually work
- Can't be hard for the game to detect people spamming crouch or even add a mechanic that makes it so that if they do it in succession it slows them.
- Harsher penalties for leaving or disconnecting from a games
- Hires more mods to monitor after game chats or perhaps a community judgement system like LoL (could backfire)
No matter what its going to requrie some sort of financial investment. The OP is right that DbD is one of the most toxic communitys out there. At the end of the day this is something the company shouldn't turn to ask fans about. You guys are the ones that are the devs. (And I know you are trying to help so I am not directing this at you personally for asking but its that you have to ask says the company isnt planning to do much currently.) I will say it is very frustrating that very often nothing is said from the team about the issue and it does come off that BHVR doesn't mind their game being associated with the fact that it's one of the most toxic games to play. At least something saying "Hey, we don't have an exact solution but we hope to have one by X amount of time".
The game is already extremely unfriendly to anyone who is new. So the last thing you guys need is people telling others "Oh you are looking at getting DbD? Game is fun but the community is extremely toxic so it might be best to just avoid playing." You can never really ELMINATE it but there is a lot that can still be done to get rid of it.1 - A few suggestions
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I love the DBD community! It's so queer-coded.
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I’ve seen this happen a lot. There was a Jeff who got made that I “tunneled” him when he was right in front of me trying to sabotage a hook. He had done this a bit so I decided to go after him if I saw him cause he was stopping me from getting hooks, they also kept trying to flash bang when I had lightborn on. It felt like they wanted to escape the match with 0 Hooks regardless of killer fun and it seemed like they gave up halfway through
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It would be nice, if the game told us more clearly what is and is not acceptable behaviour. We players often have different opinions on that. For example, one person might feel like bleeding all 4 survivors out for no reason at all is acceptable because the bleed out mechanic exists while others will point out, that this is at the very least unsportsmanlike conduct and should not be done. The same discussion has been had about teabagging. Some consider it fine while others don't.
So, I would very much appreciate word on which of these instances are acceptable and under what conditions seemingly harmless things go too far. The lines get blurry often times.
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A culture of radical optimism is a good place to start. The social sphere is filled with so much perpetual circular toxicity and negativity that the answer to it is an equal or stronger force. Complaining comes natural- instinctual. While compliments do not. So it is an act of conscious will power to be positive. I honestly suggest that people try it. Doing good makes a person feel good. What helps me is trying to see the beauty in something.
Human nature can be on the right track sometimes, it also can be wrong a lot too. Bad things happen because of it. It’s hard to convince humans that their behavior leads to destruction. All throughout history this has been difficult to achieve because toxicity makes sense to the individual committing the negativity. This negativity is difficult to move because it has great mass and it also has great inertia. It protects itself. It needs just as great of a sustained force to stop it from being a runaway train. Instead of fighting fire with fire, it would be better to neutralize the fire in the first place.
People are used to fighting and defending themselves. If you take the fight itself away you may witness confusion or the other person’s need to fight starting to re-manifest. When this happens kill the toxicity with even more kindness.Radical optimism I believe is the answer. Think sincere well wishes, sincere compliments on gameplay, cosmetics, names, etc. Even just being truly grateful for the other people themselves willing to play the same game together. This is the place to start in trying to tackle this behemoth of human nature in our community. Toxicity isn’t healthy. People who commit it must be suffering somehow. I see toxicity a little bit as a cry for help. So… let’s find the courage to do something about it. Who cares if your compliments get rejected. Who cares if you’re being nice then told something horrible. At least you created something good out of something bad. Let’s build the community that we want it to be. Let us be the actual change that we actually want to see.
This is what I recommend.
Post edited by HerInfernalMajesty on1 -
Law of Attraction✨
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Never interact with the community. Community is joy killer. Truly, I hate the fact that a game with a rather captivating gameplay has to be online and played with other players.
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That may be true but I can say in my case there are very few pos moments in DBD. Over the course of my 1000+ hours of playing DBD I have had way more negative moments with players than positive ones. It got so bad that I had to turn off end-game chat since most of the time survivors would be rude to me after a hard match where I struggled a lot. I also had lots of moments in matches where ppl would BM me all the time. It's one of the major reasons I have stopped playing dbd bc it has affected my fun of the game a lot. Im stressed out even queueing since I never knew Im going to have a fun match or a miserable one. Unfortunately, I have no idea how you can improve this, I just think the community isn't as nice as others make it out to be.
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People who perform unsportsmanlike actions instead of normal gameplay. Refusing to participate in gameplay, excessive teabagging, blocking fellow survivors, that sort of thing.
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You are correct.
We also misconstrue a player behavior from time to time.
I faced a Knight who put me on my second hook as the exit gates powered. I thought he was furious as the match did not go his way.
I was rescued and escaped and saw he was a TTV. I literally joined Twitch today just to stop by and say gg because he made some awesome plays that actually scared me.
Turns out he's just a cool guy chillin. He wasn't sweating at all nor was he upset.
I gave him the SPLENDID code which he was very grateful for and we are friends now.
I also had two daily rituals for Killers I never play tonight. The Survivors were "toxic" all match until they figured out what I was there for.
Both teams allowed me to complete my rituals out of kindness in the end.
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I think, in dbd, the problem of toxicity gas spread into many corners that are very difficult to tackle.
A few weeks ago, @Xernoton and me discussed the action of "humping" in the game. This is just one example of toxicity that goes unnoticed but can be very harmful.
I don't know what could be done, but a start would be to define what counts as toxic behaviour and what not.
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I a a killer main. You are correct. I have a few hundred hours as survivor though. Playing as a killer is exhausting and frustrating too. But it's only like that when the survivors make it so. I believe we all help craft the experience of each trial. We can all help make it fun or miserable. I choose fun.
I noticed that sometimes, due to the lack of communication between opposite sides, that the intent of actions of one are misinterpreted by the other. Sometimes I slug people without the intent of going for a 4K. Usually as a means to punish them for being caught so quickly after a hook while not letting them just run free to do whatever they want. I do not tunnel and slug, but simply if we run into each other before I come across a different survivor first. I use the bleed out meter like an extra hitpoint bar so the survivor does not die as quickly. However, a lot of survivors don't see this intent. They assume I am trying to slug for the 4K.
I disagree with the game itself shaping the community. I think the game developed and the community come together to craft the overall experience. The game is not made to make us miserable or hate each other. It's simply hard to guide the actions of a player in this situation. A community can voice all their opinions as they please, but it's up to the developers to listen. Kinda takes two to tango. Lose either one of them and there is no dance to be had.
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It always blows my mind away how often people choose to be jerks when they know they can get away with it. It's okay to be a decent person even when not held accountable. I agree the best method is to stay calm, report, move on. If you get emotional and show it, you just feed the troll. But it wears me down after a while. I try to be good and people still get upset at me like I am just some jerk who doesn't care. The same song and dance gets old after a while.
The best positive community experiences came from Everquest and early Everquest 2. I felt a strong sense of community and bad actors found themselves unable to get groups to the point they would either quit game or reroll under a different name.
You are correct about remembering the bad actions more than the positive. I wish my brain worked the other way around.
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I'm a social creature who wants to make connections after a game. I cannot ignore endgame chat. We don't know each other, no, but ideally we would grow to know one another.
The streamer tried to die super early. I ignored him and kept him alive as long as possible to "punish" him for being an early quitter. I do kill them before the game gets too far along though as I do not want a bad actor to get the bloodpoints and satisfaction of escaping.
I'd love a rep system too. Ideally, I would rather we build each other up instead of tear each other down. Low rep doesn't get punished but high rep gets rewarded. I can't think of a way to implement a system that couldn't be abused by groups of people though.
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Then they should play something else that they would enjoy more. I grant the internet and it's people one group hug.
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I just want people to think about more than themselves when playing a multiplayer game. But your take on people seems to be very accurate.
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I never understood the need to teabag at the gate or hatch. I always just left. Why would the killer want to walk across the map and watch you do that when we could end the game with the same result 30 seconds sooner and be queued up for the next game that much faster? It's like cutting into your own game time to stroke your ego.
Personally, I thought teabagging like this should close the hatch, teleport the player to the center of the map, down them, and give the killer deerstalking. But then the problem becomes trying to program to detect intent and actual people misunderstand that in the game all the time: How could a program do it better?
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I chuckled at the "Make the report button actually work."
I agree with this sentiment entirely. DBD is clearly a successful game. New players could thrive a lot better if an actual effort was made to curb the negativity of some players. Effort usually means money, sure, but the potential of growth increases and helps cancel out some of the money invested while providing a better experience on the whole to all players.
You reminded me of a gaming quote I made up before: Just because we're trying to eviscerate each other with rusty spoons does not mean we can't be gentlemanly about it.
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Your post makes me think of intent. You can do things with good intent in mind, but it's up to those around them to actually perceive it. The Jeff is super annoying to the killer, but might be a lifesaver to the other survivors. Maybe he isn't thinking about the fun of others, but just enjoys saving people. I think it's important to consider ALL players in a match and help curate the experience together to make it as much fun as possible (not saying you don't do this). A lot of people don't do that. They are focused on themselves and that often costs the others enjoyment. When players play this way, it feels so immature, selfish. Like the difference between an adult gaming and a child. Except I know some people that are 60+ and still play very selfishly.
I feel like I sound very condescending typing like this, but I don't know how else to carry the point across. I want to have fun and I want everyone else to have fun. Some people just stop that sentence short five words deep regardless of the consequences to others.
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Holy moly, you are smarter than me. I think this is what I have been trying to express while lacking the ability to put it in such words. I've heard a quote to something along the lines of "there is strength in kindness" and I believe your post drives it home. The negativity always felt immature to me, like a child would be. Maybe it really feels more like a person being negative over nothing is really just calling out for help from a place of frustration. If so, then the cure would be to soothe their hurt ego and let them know everything is okay. If anything, repeated online experiences have definitely proven responding to negativity with more negativity sure accomplishes a whole lot of nothing.
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This post makes my heart have a tummy ache.
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This is essentially my OP. I want to play this great game. I want to have fun. Sometimes the other players make it not worth playing in the first place.
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The philosophy I go by is there's good and bad people everywhere no matter where they're from, all you can do is be kind to those around you and hope for the same in return. Just because someone appears toxic from a playstyle in game, if they're being nice and not rude or egotistical people also need to accept that person isn't out to hurt them and they'd more than likely become a friend If you allow it, but also there's gonna be people that no matter if you were toxic or not they're just out to be crude for no real reason and they just generally aren't good people for anyone to sit and try and conversate with
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This is kind of the reason I want proximity voice chat. The communication that you can perform in DBD is really poor and often leads to misconceptions of intent. I know a lot of people are against proxy VC and I can see how that lack of communication improves the atmosphere of that game, but is it worth all the misery it brings?
Edit: Typo
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I would argue it would be more miserable to have to deal with a squeaker screeching and hurling slurs because they're being proxy camped or tunneled or they wanna blame their team for them dying, I feel like it opens the door for trolls who would be doing things on purpose to get a reaction whether it be for their own personal humor or a social media account
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People genuinely enjoy rubbing it in when they win. It's either an ego thing or they feel the killer has slighted them in some way and want to show that they one-upped them most of the time.
Same kind of thing for 4 minute bleedouts or other equivalent forms of BM.
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Exactly. Getting rid of the toxicity would help make losing feel a lot worse. It's irritating when people are taunting you and your losing on top of all that. If the game had a more of a feeling of playing with friends and messing around and not trying to litterally RP the setting of the game then it might a little nicer lol.
But yeah the new player expirence is a whole other box of issues and honestly I think DbD is the absolute WORST game for new players. Which is why I never recommend it to anyone new. You need to invest too much time and money to get to a playable level. Not to mention how little you get for buying the game off the bat.0 -
I get ya. I just want to be able to properly communicate so people stop assuming intent and being rude for essentially no reason.
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I have a friend who is still relatively new to DBD and only plays custom matches. He has never played in a public one and refuses to ever do so.
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Yes absolutely. I believe there is tremendous strength in kindness.
I believe that kindness should not merely be a means to an end but an end in and of itself.
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Custom matches are a good thing it will build confidence for your friend, you should also set up private matches with friends for him and show him the ropes or the more fun side of dbd like builds that have synergy , also ive saw some people call t bagging toxic but I disagree it's a valid strategy I'll use to be tunneled but I'm not rude to anyone in the chat I just do things to get myself the attention in game because I'm benefitting my team by wasting that extra time where they normally would've left but now feel like they have to catch me and as I've said before I'm fine with whatever repercussions come my way in game I know I deserve it lol
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He is doing the right thing.
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My biggest gripe is, no matter where, there's a massive Us vs Them mentality.
I won't claim to be completely unbiased, since in my 2k hours I've players 60% killer and 40% survivor according to stats, but I never look at bad changes on either side and think "Thank goodness they got nerfed and not my stuff" or think one bad thing is justified because my side has other bad things.
That unfortunately comes with the territory with games like this, and it worries me that balance changes sometimes slip through because one side demands more for their side than the other. It hasn't been that terrible all things considered, but with sweeping regression changes with no changes to how optimized progression can become it worries me.
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Yeah, unfortunately I got to the point years ago where I simply disabled all avenues for postgame interaction, as it was little positivity, some neutral/cursory stuff (like your stock standard "GG"), and a whole lot of ugliness. On PC I disabled/hid chat, on console I set messaging to friends only and ignore friend requests I get while playing DBD.
I know I'm missing out on some wholesome interaction, but I also know I'm avoiding a ton of stuff that's just going to be really negative, aggressive, and toxic.
As was pointed out earlier, people tend to dwell on the bad stuff and get the loudest when they are in a negative space, and consequently that comprises most of the chat bandwidth.
I play nicely (I think) and try to always consider the experience of everyone else in the match, and I actually found that harder to do when I left myself exposed to the postgame stuff because no matter how considerate you try to be (while still trying to win), most of the feedback in this community is negative. I wish it weren't so, but I don't want playing to be an experience that leads me toward more cynical thoughts than the rest of the world already does.
I just want to play, have fun, and presume the best in others.
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