If Pain Res is getting nerfed due to 40% usage, why isn't Windows of Opportunity getting nerfed too?
Dev note: Pain Resonance finds itself in almost 40% of all loadouts, and it is one of the most effective Perks in the game. We want to make this Perk less of a clear choice for all builds, but keep it rewarding for Killers who choose to chase multiple Survivors.
WOO has been the most used survivor perk for a long time. Its usage was 32% according to the Jan 2024 stats and 36%, according to the more recent Nightlight stats. If it is in nearly 40% of builds, shouldn't it be nerfed to make it "less of a clear choice", like Pain Res?
It's arguably the most effective survivor perk (after Dead Hard's nerf) given it's one of the most used survivor perk in the history of DBD and the most popular perk since its buff. It's absurd that WOO has much higher usage than the strongest survivor perks in the history of DBD. For example:
Pre-nerf MFT only had a 21% usage rate, much less than WOO.
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/171i5hc/see_whats_being_used_before_730_drops/
Pre-nerf Decisive Strike had a 27% usage rate, much less than WOO.
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/nge6c0/decisive_strike_official_stats_taken_from_dbds/
It's usage is similar to Dead Hard for distance, which had a ~40% usage rate.
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/xez20h/stats_610_in_review/
You can call it a noobie learn the map perk or whatever, but the data doesn't really support that claim. It's still the most used survivor perk in high mmr, who don't need to learn the map at that point.
People will also argue that it closes the gap between SWF and solo but that's complete bs. I discussed it here long ago. Also, the stats show SWF and solos don't have much of a difference in escape rate (excluding high MMR 4-man swfs). There isn't much of a gap between SWFs and solos to begin with.
Comments
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comparing Windows to Pain ress is new to me
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I think it's kind of a stretch to say that WoO actually is the most effective survivor perk in the game, especially as I assume BHVR are looking primarily at Pain Res' impact on the trials it's present for.
It's just picked a lot, it's clearly not the actual strongest thing survivors have so I don't see any reason it'd somehow be the most effective instead.
Not that I'm necessarily against it getting nerfed, but specifically comparing it to Pain Res doesn't quite work because PR really is that strong, and WoO isn't.
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BHVR mainly nerfs perks people complain about. The only reason WOO hasn't been hit yet is because the vast majority of the community views it as an innocent learn the map perk. As I mentioned in my post, it has similar usage to Dead Hard for distance. That's fairly absurd considering DH was the strongest perk in the history of DBD. You don't simply reach that usage rate by being a weak perk. There is a very high correlation between perk usage and perk strength. The top 10 most used perks are typically the strongest perks at the time, as seen by past data:
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1arg1o4/developer_update_stats/
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/171i5hc/see_whats_being_used_before_730_drops/
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/15i13jy/bhvr_released_stats_on_the_top_ten_most_used/
BHVR actually released data showing that the higher mmr people are, the more they use the strongest perks, proving the correlation between strength and usage (x axis is MMR).
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Usage-wise
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I would definitely contest that there's a particularly strong correlation between strength and pickrate. There is a correlation, but it's generally only moderate, not particularly strong- I'd even point to the current top ten as evidence of this.
Some of the strongest stuff is there, we can see Sprint Burst and Adrenaline for example, but we've also got some stuff that definitely isn't top ten in terms of pure strength. The obvious thing to point to is Self Care, which is definitely not that strong, but it's not the only outlier; perks like Bond and Kindred are good, sure, but they're not top ten good, and neither is WoO.
Now, to be clear, I do know why those perks are run. They're very useful information perks for solo queue, Kindred especially being very nice for tracking the killer. That supports my point, though, which is that there are reasons beyond strength that drive pickrate. Convenience and experience matter too, and WoO is a perk that can be very nice to use because it allows you to not pay too close attention between chases— but almost everything it does can be achieved by just using your eyes between chases, so it's hardly strong because of it.
Pain Resonance actually IS an exceptionally strong perk, it isn't just nice or convenient. Same with old Dead Hard, it was one of the most broken single perks in the game's history. Sometimes, the top stuff is picked because it's the strongest and most effective. Sometimes, the top stuff is picked for other reasons.
Again, I'm not against WoO being nerfed, but it'd be for variety reasons, not balance reasons. Its pickrate is kind of nutty and not great for perk variety.
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Jeezle Pete bud. You'll twist yourself into a Mobius pretzel to defend survivor perks.
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The more reasonable interpretation is that I disagree with you, but sure, we'll go with whatever that means.
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Wish it would so the Google Maps survivors mindlessly dropping every pallet on the map would actually have to apply some skill.
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There's a high correlation but not a perfect correlation. With the exception of Self-Care, those perks you mentioned are still top 15 in terms of strength, which is close enough. Self-Care isn't that bad though. Pre-nerf Self-Care was the 5th most used perk at max MMR. In recent years, its value has drastically increased due to the large nerf to Med Kits.
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WoO is top-tier for soloq. most player play soloq and soloq has no information for what pallet are used. Bond is similar issue. there is no information for soloq to find teammates for healing or avoid teammate that works on gens.
for cases like WoO & Bond, survivor aren't using those perks because they're *fun. They're using them out of necessity. Tru3ta1ent has been running Bond & WoO for long showcasing how important those perks are for soloq. In the context of soloq, Pain res is as powerful as WoO for Soloq because it allows soloq to acquire "SWF" advantages.
almost everything it does can be achieved by just using your eyes between chases, so it's hardly strong because of it.
you need exceptional amount of map knowledge to do that. a lot of player do use WoO as skipping stone to learning the map. that why I think that Window Of Opportunity will eventually get nerfed in some ways. maybe half radius.
Whenever they do change that, i hope they consider doing something like showing the red aura of a dropped pallet. So people that pay attention to the map may notice which pallets are broken making WoO less needed for soloq.
Another good thing would be like adding 20 meters of bond base-kit and making bond increase radius by 16 meters. Just something like that could really improve healing efficiency and encourage more teamplay in soloq.
Unfortunately as one of Q&A, they said that soloq is fine and has equal opportunity to win as SWF despite also showing statistics where high MMR SWF has 8.88% escape-rate increase over soloq(A lot of this has to do fact that SWF is able to stack strong perks like Decisive strike, Adrenaline and so on and not need info perks leading to higher win-rate %).
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on1 -
Probably because WOO isnt a problem, compared to Pain Res.
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Exactly. People aren't running woo because it is such a broken perk, they run it because the info soloq survivors get is extremely limited without the use of aura reading perks. Woo, bond, kindred, etc. are basically a necessity if you don't want to be utterly clueless in the mess that is soloq.
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The gap between SWF and solo queue is largely overrated. Unless you're playing in a high MMR 4-man SWF, you won't have a large advantage compared to other party sizes. 4-man SWFs only occur in ~5% of matches. High mmr 4-man SWFs are probably in less than 1% of matches, so 99% of the player base perform similarly.
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1arg1o4/developer_update_stats/
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The operative word in the dev post being "and".
PainRes has high usage AND is one of the most effective perks in the game.Do you argue that WoO is one of the most effective perks in the game too? If so: what makes you believe that?
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WOO is mainly used by experienced survivors so much because every time the game gets an update there's usually map changes too and you have to relearn the map and the pallets. It is also used to teach new survivors how to play the game, and finally, after using it too much you feel handicapped by not using it. They are the only 3 main reasons.
Please stop asking for noob-friendly perks to be nerfed, all this perk does is show the aura of pallets, it doesn't make the survivor have another health state, take extra hits, heal, go invisible from the killer or anything. And no, I don't use this perk anymore and haven't for almost a year now but I did when I first played and it did help me to understand the game better.
Nerfing this perk only hurts the player base.
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Do you argue that WoO is one of the most effective perks in the game too? If so: what makes you believe that?
I would say it's best information perk survivor can use right now.
It easily extends your chases simply because you will never guess incorrectly if pallet/window spawned.I personally wouldn't want it to get nerfed, but I agree argument of pick rate is flawed. Pain res was basically replacement for BBQ to make going for fresh hooks wanted choice for killers.
I have no idea why you would want to decrease pick rate of such perk. Only nerf I would understand is disable it when someone dies, not really %.3 -
I'm sure WoO will be nerfed. They nerfed Adrenaline and that's only 20% usage. Buckle up probably had 4% usage and that got nerfed
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Maybe because WoO is not an issue? Is the most picked perk because of SoloQ
But I guess then Buckle up+ FTP shouldn't be nerfed because those perks aren't even top 10, right?
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Because the devs have stats that I would wager show Pain Res etc having a direct impact on kill rates and match outcomes. It's the only reason I can see as to why it seems to constantly be tweaked (this is like the third or fourth time it's been touched I believe?). I would wager WoOs impact is negligible.
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PR got a pretty lenient nerf still the best gen regression perk and pop is in the gutter with 90% of gen kick perks. Windows is a good perk, but nowhere close in strength to pr.
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I still dont understand why people want Windows of Opportunity nerfed.
Like most people I see use it are SoloQ, it's not like it is a "carry perk" since WoO does the exact same thing that SWF comms can do. It prevents Survivors from running into deadzones by giving them information at to what pallets have and havent been used, but a SWF can just call out which pallets have and havent been used.
Calling for a nerf to WoO is like saying "let's nerf one of the main tools that SoloQ uses" which I dont agree with, especially since it does not affect good SWFs in the slightest.
Though in my opinion, I think it is overrated, and I prefer to opt into other information/utility perks when SoloQ'ing (e.g. Bond, Empathy, Troubleshooter, Alert, Any Means Necessary, etc.).
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WOO provides multiple health states by helping survivors avoid dead zones and path properly. Avoiding a dead zone is effectively gaining a life state as running into a dead zone is an almost guaranteed hit. WOO is most effective against killers that can quickly clear pallets and create many dead zones, e.g. Wraith, Cannibal, and Singularity.
Similarly, poorly pathing to a pallet or window will allow the killer to close more distance, which can result in a hit. This will impact survivors who don't know the map layout the most. WOO serves as a large crutch for these players and removing it would result in a large drop in escape rate. The 3 most important skills for survivors are understanding: the map layout, how to run tiles, and how to loop specific killers. WOO allows survivors to automatically gain a good understand of the map layout. People underestimate the difficulty of learning all the maps. There are currently 39 maps, more if the variations are included. It would take at least a year of playing to learn all the maps to the same extent that WOO provides. The value of WOO will only increase as more maps are added. It may even become a necessity in the future when there are far too many maps to learn.
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I personally would prefer WoO was changed just so it was actually engaging to use.
It's not that WoO is overpowered, it's just a lazy perk. There is no need to actually develop your own map/tile knowledge or looping skills on weaker tiles, because you can always see/find every strong tile and every chain without ever having to think about it.
Instead of playing survivor being something where you have to take stock of your environment, look for windows and pallets beforehand and consider escape routes as you go, instead you just absent mindendly jump on a gen, knowing WoO will do the work for you.
Switching my brain off like this makes DBD more boring for me, and much harder to actually learn tiles and routing paths... so as such I refuse to run WoO.
If while active it showed auras and then went on cooldown after you took a vault/dropped a pallet, then reactivated after just 10-15 seconds worth, I'd have to at least take stock of everything around me before I vaulted so would actually help me commit tiles to memory, rather than allowed me to not bother at all and still get away with it.
Though maybe that's a little masochistic of me, and I can't exactly push my preference ahead of what everyone else wants for this perk... especially given this is a nerf, and I don't think this perk is OP. This change would just make it more interesting for me to consider running it.
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We need to stop with this nerfing of perks just because they're popular. We should only be nerfing if something is overtuned.
We need to focus on buffing the bad perks instead and widening the variety of viable perks so that we all have more options.
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