The Definitive Onryo 4.0 Rework

Seven days.

Seven days is all Sadako Yamamura can spare to play with you. However, that is a little long for a dbd match, so let's try to cut that down to about seven minutes?

This rework idea takes the Onryo's condemn mechanics in a radically different direction. The problems with current Onryo 3.0 are that her ability is too easy to counter. Survivors can see the auras of her TVs and easily stay away from them to avoid condemn stacks. Or they can simply shut TVs off too easily, or when the Onryo teleports to a TV, they will see the aura disappear and know to run the other way. What's also problematic are that the current changes still do not discourage tunneling; they encourage tunneling now more than ever! Onryo players still do love to get those condemn moris, and the way to achieve this is to continually harass the same survivor, attempting to herd them into active TVs, and otherwise spamming your teleport power rather than give meaningful chase. However, to be fair, it does feel like overusing the teleport power has become necessary, seeing as (as mentioned above) survivors can easily find and disable TVs. This not only prevents the Onryo from building up condemn stacks, but severely limits her mobility.

I'd like to avoid all those problems entirely. In this 4.0 rework, TVs are for mobility, special addon effects, and a bit of info only. Survivors cannot turn off TVs. Condemn is instead built up passively at all times, like a ticking time bomb. Think of it like pig's reverse bear traps, except you take actions to postpone the head pop.

So first thing is first: at the beginning of the match, all survivors start with a condemn timer. At the end of seven minutes, they become fully condemned, which not only makes them exposed, but instantly killable by mori. Seven minutes isn't a lot of time. In order to buy more time, survivors must spread the Onryo's curse. They approach a TV and use the interact action, which takes 3 seconds to make a copy of a cursed tape. They are then shown the aura of two target TVs (the ones farthest away) which they must deposit that tape into. Depositing a tape takes 1.5 seconds. Once they have successfully put their tape into one of their target TVs, their condemn timer pauses for 90 seconds.

Meanwhile, the Onryo uses the TVs to teleport around. She can only teleport to powered TVs, as in previous iterations. Powered TVs also can cause special effects, which will be explained later. When the Onryo teleports to a TV, that particular TV shuts off (also as with previous iterations). However, in this 4.0 rework, instead of survivors being able to shut off TVs (they can't do this ever) they can turn on TVs. They might want to do this so they can make a cursed VHS Tape at that particular TV. If they want to deposit their VHS tape into a TV, it also must be powered. So the Onryo cannot block survivors from completing tape runs by spamming her power. But the survivors can enable themselves to do tape runs by enabling the Onryo to teleport to her TVs earlier.

When a survivor completes their errand to deposit their cursed VHS tape, this may delay the onset of their curse, but this empowers the Onryo. At the start of the match, teleporting to a TV causes it to shut off for 56 seconds. When survivors deposit tapes into a TV, they reduce that shutoff time by 7 seconds (down to a minimum of 7 seconds), and each tape deposited also increases the speed in which the Onryo manifests from that TV slightly. Additionally, the range of powered TV special effects is increased by +1 meter.

When a TV has been fully powered up, there would be only a very small amount of time it remains shut off, and the Onryo will be coming out of it very fast! Special effects from powered TVs will also have an increased range of +7 meters. Ideally, survivors would not want this to happen, and should make sure they are not always bringing cursed VHS Tapes to the same location.

The overall game plan for survivors is probably about the same as usual: do generators as quickly as possible to escape the killer and avoid the curse. Do tape runs to postpone the curse. As for the Onryo: how do you exert condemn pressure? By relentlessly chasing down your victims, as all good killer design should strive to do. When the Onryo chases survivors, downs them, and hooks them, they can't do generators. When the Onryo chases survivors, they will have difficulty creating cursed VHS Tapes. The condemn timer will not pause while survivors are being chased, but it will pause while they are in the dying state or on a hook. Also when the Onryo hooks a survivor, she not only destroys any tape they were holding, but removes the ongoing effect of a recent tape run.

For example, let's say a survivor returns a cursed VHS into a TV right in front of the Onryo and immediately goes down. Their condemn timer would normally be paused for 90 seconds. It's paused anyway because they are on the floor, but let's say a hook was nearby, the survivor gets hooked, and is then quickly rescued. That 90 seconds of paused condemn timer they had from their tape run is gone, since they were hooked. They will have to do another tape run if they want to delay their curse.

Here's the other potential problem from previous Onryo versions we are avoiding: a common nobrainer strategy for survivors would be to just get a tape and deposit it. Then, since it takes a bit of time to create a copy, just get another cursed VHS Tape and hold onto it for safety. Maybe deposit that tape after you finish doing a generator nearby, or think about depositing it once the Onryo finds you and you are in a chase.

However! In this Onryo 4.0 iteration, holding onto tapes actually comes with risk. You see, what we are going to do is truly make the Onryo a "stealth killer" again. We all know that the Onryo can demanifest, and she's only visible intermittently from a certain distance away. But there's also a distinctive lullaby that warns experienced survivors when she is near. This drastically impairs her stealth ability. So what we will do is this: when survivors are within 8 meters of a powered TV, they experience the lullaby effect, regardless of where the Onryo is. This range increases by +1 meter each time a tape has been deposited into that TV. Additionally, when survivors are holding onto a cursed VHS Tape, they always experience the lullaby effect, and the Onryo's demanifested visibility range is reduced by 4 meters.

For example, normally the Onryo is visible from 24 meters away when demanifested, and completely invisible outside of this range. Holding onto a cursed VHS tape reduces this distance by 4 meters, meaning you can only see the Onryo from 20 meters away. Combined with the Clump of Hair addon, this distance can be reduced to 14 meters. And since holding onto a tape constantly puts you in the effect of the Onryo's lullaby, you can never really be sure if she is nearby or not until you get rid of your tape.

The last thing this 4.0 rework does is tweak the visibility of TV auras. Even though survivors cannot turn off TVs in this version, they still need to interact with them in order to delay the curse. When survivors are within 8 meters of a TV and not holding a tape, they will see its aura in white, whether it is on or off. Additionally, TVs will place the survivors under the effect of the Onryo's lullaby, and emit visual static and audio cues. The ranges of these effects depend on how many times the TV has had a tape deposited into it. If a nearby TV is turned off via Projection, these static and audio cues will subside after 5 seconds. Once a survivor has made a copy of a cursed VHS Tape, they will briefly see the location of their target TV(s). Only when they come within close proximity of their target TV(s), let's say 8 meters, will they see the aura. Again, the aura will be visible, regardless of whether the TV is on or off. When a survivor is in chase, they will not see TV auras.

So changes in a nutshell. TLDR:

  • 7 minute doomsday timer. Teleporting does not increase condemn.
  • Do tape runs to delay timer by 90 seconds.
  • Survivors can't turn off TVs. But they can turn them on to complete their objectives.
  • Survivors can see TV auras, but only on a need-to-know basis, and not while in chase.
  • Doing tape runs allow the Onryo to teleport more frequently and project faster.
  • Tape runs also increase the range of powered TV special effects.
  • Takes 3 seconds to receive a tape, and 1.5 seconds to deposit a tape.
  • Holding a tape or being near powered TVs put survivors under the lullaby effect.
  • Being downed or hooked pauses the condemn timer.
  • Being hooked destroys tapes, and will resume survivors' condemn timers when unhooked.
  • Dead survivors do not cause TVs to play special animations as if they were nearby.

Now let's look at some proposed addon changes:

Cabin Sign - Reduces the time it takes for TVs to turn back on after Projection by -10%.

Mothers Mirror - Increases the duration of your intermittent Invisibility after Manifesting by +2 seconds. (unchanged).

Old Newspaper - Increases the duration of your full Invisibility after Manifesting by +33%. (unchanged)

Videotape Copy - When Survivors retrieve a cursed VHS Tape, they have a choice of three target TVs. When Survivors successfully deposit a VHS Tape, their condemn timer is paused for 110 seconds. +100% bonus blood points to the Hunting category.

Clump of Hair - Reduces the threshold for full Invisibility while Demanifested by -6 meters. (unchanged)

Reiko's Watch - Increases the duration of your full Invisibility while Demanifested by +25%. (unchanged)

Sea-soaked Cloth - Survivors suffer from the Blindness Status Effect when within 8 meters of powered TVs. (+1 meter per deposited tape). This effect lingers for 5 seconds after leaving the area, or after the TV shuts off.

Well Stone - Survivors suffer from the Exhaustion Status Effect when within 8 meters of powered TVs. (+1 meter per deposited tape). This effect lingers for 5 seconds after leaving the area, or after the TV shuts off.

Yoichi's Fishing Net - Survivors suffer from the Blindness Status Effect after their curse has progressed 70%.

Bloody Finger Nails - Increases the Speed Boost duration after Projection by +50%. (unchanged)

Mother's Comb - Highlights the auras of unpowered TVs in yellow. When standing within 4 meters of a powered TV, you may teleport to an unpowered TV at the cost of resetting both TVs' shutoff times to whichever is highest. When survivors turn on a TV, they trigger a loud noise notification.

Rickety Pinwheel - Survivors suffer from the Oblivious Status Effect when within 8 meters of powered TVs. (+1 meter per deposited tape). This effect lingers for 5 seconds after leaving the area, or after the TV shuts off.

Ring Drawing - While Survivors are performing a Healing action, their condemn timer progresses twice as fast. If their condemn timer is paused, that grace period is consumed twice as fast.

Well Water - Increases the duration of the Undetectable Status Effect by +2 Seconds when manifesting by any means. Manifesting is silent, and the volume of Projection Effects is reduced by -50%.

Distorted Photo - Causes all Survivors within 16 meters of your location who witness your Manifestation to scream and reveal their auras for 4 seconds. (unchanged)

Tape Editing Deck - All Survivors start the trial with a cursed VHS Tape. They must bring their VHS Tape to one of three possible TVs that are farthest from their current location. Survivors are not notified where their first target TV is. The auras of Survivors inserting a VHS Tape into a TV are revealed for 6 seconds.

Telephone - Survivors suffer from a -3% Hindered Status Effect for 3 seconds when Manifesting within 7 meters of them. (unchanged)

VCR - Causes all TVs to play the Projection Effects when using Projection. (unchanged)

Iridescent Video Tape - When survivors retrieve a cursed VHS Tape, they only have one target TV to deposit it into, and it is the one that is farthest away. When Survivors successfully deposit a VHS Tape, their condemn timer is paused for 77 seconds. Survivors holding onto a cursed VHS Tape receive a +2% haste bonus.

Remote Control - The Auras of all Survivors within 12 meters of powered TVs are revealed to you for 7 seconds after using Projection. (unchanged)

If you got this far, thank you for reading! Feel free to leave critique, and occasionally bump the thread so it does not get buried!

Comments

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590
    edited May 13

    This takes Onryos skill ceiling which is quite higher than most people think and puts it on the floor. This removes so much skill from Onryo and makes so much of it is just passive. On top of that your timers are so extremely safe that most my matches we’d have the gates powered before even doing a single tape and even one tape drop off is no time at all. So she would now have basically zero map slow down and almost never get a condemn kill either.

    Current Onryo design concept is fine, it doesn’t need a rework, it just needs a few tweaks here and there and an addon pass.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,638

    This takes Onryos skill ceiling which is quite higher than most people think and puts it on the floor

    it is funny because that is what the dev wanted in this 3.0 sadako where the condemn is just an after-thought with little to no depth.

    Current Onryo design concept is fine, it doesn’t need a rework, it just needs a few tweaks here and there and an addon pass.

    I think the current Onryo design is disastrous bad. I just need to be patient until dev make sadako playable on badham pre-school and less of a free win on Gideons and elementary school.

  • YamamuraVideoRentals
    YamamuraVideoRentals Member Posts: 131

    The idea with this rework is that if you want survivors to build up condemn, you HAVE to pressure them and stop them from returning tapes. This rework gives Sadako a lot of her map pressure back and an actually viable stealth ability.

    It is very possible to have matches last longer than seven minutes. Maybe if you actually try to chase people and pressure gens, rather than spamming M2 CTRL M2 CTRL M2 CTRL, you might make the games last a bit longer.

    Either way, some of these exact numbers can be adjusted. Even game mechanics can be adjusted. For example, breaking tapes on hit. However, most people felt that was far too oppressive. And it probably is, considering the timer doesn't pause when you are being chased.

  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,126
    edited May 14

    Good attempt on the 4.0, I feel like understanding the complexities of this iteration may prove to be a bit confusing for Survivor but that's just my opinion

    I think Sadako's premise somewhat clashes with the concept of hooks in the game. The ultimate goal of her power is to take someone out of the game even with 0 hooks but slugging a Survivor is frowned upon. People already noticed this in the first version of Sadako and slugging Survivors was common, Ring drawing's effect made the playstyle more attractive too.

    Devs also probably picked up on this and tried to incentivize hooks by making it easy to remove stacks and locking Condemned stacks via hook which brings us to 3.0 Sadako

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590
    edited May 14

    I do agree that’s the bad direction they were trying to go and how they destroyed pig. I think they accidentally made it not passive on Onryo. Don’t get me wrong, I do think she’s weak and needs improvements, I just do think she’s better than people think. I just went on a 78 game win streak and my stats with her so far in high mmr is only 7 losses out of nearly 250 games. I think that shows there’s at least something there. My point is just that I think her concept is fine, it just needs some tweaks and buffs, not another rework.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590

    Why do you feel her current kit needs this much of a complete rework again rather than just changes to the current design? I think her current design concept is good, it just needs some improvements.

  • YamamuraVideoRentals
    YamamuraVideoRentals Member Posts: 131

    I explained this at the very beginning of the OP.

    So at this point I'm assuming you just didn't read anything at all, and are just against change for the sake of never changing anything.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590

    No need to be passive aggressive.

    I read your post and the points just didn't justify why she needs a full rework. Your issues are fixable with small tweaks.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,638

    She was capable of going on 200 win-streaks in original version with iri add-on's and capable of same win-streaks with 0 add-on or perks in 2.0.

    I burned 50 gideon+midwich offerings and got 50 win-streak with 3 or 4 condemn kills, not dropping a single game. I have 3 major issues with the current design of Sadako.

    The first issue is map dependency. The killer is too strong on double story maps where corralling survivors is easy to condemn. there is almost no counter-play to 18 meter video-copy TV's. On midwich, it is like 33% of the map size while on normal/bigger maps, a single TV teleport is like 8% of the map size.

    The second issue is that the killer has no ability to influence the strength of the counter item. The item is too strong on a multitude of maps because it turns off the ability for little to no opportunity cost.

    The third issue is that layout of each ability for killer is not evenly distributed in power. Her stealth is mediocre. her anti-loop is non-extent vs good teams. Her condemn is SWF bully bait material. Her TV teleporting is good if it can be used but tapes shut it off on outdoor maps.

    An ideal killer power should be

    →Fair on all maps

    →Equally power in all distribution of power(With add-on to reinforce a particular strength)

    →The power should have fair counter-play that the survivor can min-max to nully the effectiveness but the killer should be able to outskill/outplay their counter if they play well.

    Sadako fails all fronts.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590
    edited May 14

    I agree she is significantly stronger on those indoor maps but I think you exaggerate to what degree. You make it sound completely unfair and almost an auto loss for the survivors. I think it's much harder but still very manageable if they aren't bad. I haven't had issues managing it myself as survivor. I feel like this is like saying how strong stealth killers can be and how long of a win streak you can go on them if you spam indoor map offerings every game that completely alter how weak they normally are. However this said, I'm not opposed to weakening her in this area if in turn we're also fixing her second issue. What would you be suggesting to fix this map issue?

    "The second issue is that the killer has no ability to influence the
    strength of the counter item. The item is too strong on a multitude of
    maps because it turns off the ability for little to no opportunity cost
    ."

    I agree with this. She has very little control over them removing Condemn and there's no downside for tapes. At the bare minimum I think Ring Drawing should be base kit but I'd personally prefer hits destroying tapes again as it rewards me outplaying them as a basic m1 killer where they have the advantage. They don't even have to return the Condemn gain at destroying it by hit, just make it destroy it so they have to get another. We're you thinking the same as me or did you have a different idea here?

    "The third issue is that layout of each ability for killer is not evenly distributed in power."

    The vast majority of the killer roster doesn't fit this criteria.

    "Her stealth is mediocre. her anti-loop is non-extent vs good teams. Her
    condemn is SWF bully bait material. Her TV teleporting is good if it can
    be used but tapes shut it off on outdoor maps.
    "

    I agree.

    "An ideal killer power should be

    →Fair on all maps

    →Equally power in all distribution of power(With add-on to reinforce a particular strength)

    →The power should have fair counter-play that the survivor can min-max to
    nully the effectiveness but the killer should be able to
    outskill/outplay their counter if they play well.
    "

    I mean by these standards the majority of killers fail in design. Many killers aren't fair for one side or the other depending on the map. Mostly killers have specialties while being very weak in other areas. very few killers have their powers equally distributed. Many killers have too much counter play with little they can counter in return. I'm not saying your design criteria for a good killer is bad, I'm just saying that the majority of killers fail if these are the aspects we're judging them by so it might not be exactly fair to judge her so harshly by said criteria.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,638

    You make it sound completely unfair and almost an auto loss for the survivors.

    I don't think it is auto-loss but it is definitely auto-mori. The ability to auto-mori /= the ability to auto-win. The killer still has to put the survivor in the dying state. As we know Gideon is safe pallet city so it is not that easy. On elementary school, it is more common as the loops are not as potent.

    What would you be suggesting to fix this map issue?

    They did fix the issue in the 2.0. They made condemn global making it equally powerful.

    A possible middle ground is TV condemn to only work on radius of the TV similar to skull merchant drones. The TV would have a very faint red outline indicating the condemn distance that does not go through floors. I would also remove the TV aura's as a trade off.

    Survivors inside the red lines take 1 condemn stack, survivor outside take 0.33-0.5 stacks. I am not sure how DBD does with decimals, but 0.33 x3 = 1 condemn stack. With this change, This gives a little more power on worse maps but still preserves some relevancy in funneling survivors into TV's.

    At the bare minimum I think Ring Drawing should be base kit but I'd personally prefer hits destroying tapes again as it rewards me outplaying them as a basic m1 killer where they have the advantage.

    the tapes in old system was genius system that punished survivors for misplaying the chase and rewarded the killer to ascend the curse. The main issue right now with TV's is the ability to turn them entirely off for 70 seconds. For swf, you can't teleport anywhere when most TV are turned off. In my opinion, this was one of the issues in 2.0 Sadako as well. I think the TV turning off should be reduced to like 30 seconds.

    Tape breaking should probably return but perhaps it should be a bit less rewarding such as 1 condemn stack for tape break. I also would not mind for tapes to return back to making you immune to TV TP. With 1 second tape insertions which can be done inside chase, tape breaking cannot be that over-tuned.

    I do not want condemn to be extremely overpowered or over dominate in her kit but I would like it to be more usable vs the very best survivors. with current iteration, i don't think i will ever be condemned on the average survivor sided map. I see that as a problem.

    I mean by these standards the majority of killers fail in design. Many killers aren't fair for one side or the other depending on the map. Mostly killers have specialties while being very weak in other areas. very few killers have their powers equally distributed. Many killers have too much counter play with little they can counter in return. I'm not saying your design criteria for a good killer is bad, I'm just saying that the majority of killers fail if these are the aspects we're judging them by so it might not be exactly fair to judge her so harshly by said criteria.

    Depends the killer. Lots of killer are not balanced in the sense of being equally distributed in power. The killer that are balanced do follow that criteria for the most part very closely. The killer are not meant to 100% be fair in every single situation. what is important is that they're fair in like 60% of the situations where both sides can show skill/interaction. the other 40% is often decided on circumstance where it skews survivor or killer.