Do you think survivors/SWF need nerf?
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A hidden MMR, with tons and tons of RNG all over the place. DBD is an obnoxious & unique mix of both competitive and party. At the higher levels of sweaty and efficient play the cracks tend to break wide open. So the mentality going in also determines how the trials can go.
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What I think is that the game could still do something to reduce the gap between SWF and solo. It's not a huge gap anymore, but it still exists, even though mostly on high MMR… and we could at least let solo survivors SEE THEIR TEAMMATE'S PERKS! Even if it doesn't impact the survival rate very much, this would be good to improve the solo survivor experience, and that could also help to balance the game overall. Seriously, some perks are very good in the hands of SWF but hard to make work as a solo because your teammates end up working against them: solo survivors crawl and interrupt your healing when you try to use For the People sometimes, or cleanse totems when someone else has a Boon.
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I mean I've mostly ever played in duos and trios I don't think I've ever been on a full 4 man and that checks out with what people tell me when I play killer, it's mostly duos and trios.
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Right, so duos can play together, what is the problem?
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Didnt the devs state that they wont balance swf and solo differently?
I mean… let's be honest for a second here. There is no difference between solo and swf that the devs are responsible for. Every difference is the actions and behavior of the players and not the game mechanics. YOU dont care for others escapes unless theyre your friends.
As for survivor in general needing a nerf? nah, imagine the backlash if some basekit stuff got nerfed. I'd rather have all killers (characters)get buffed to the level of the top 3 (the top 3 characters) like survivors keep yapping about making solo (4 random bad players) as strong as swf (good players).
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So was DBD a party game before mmr?
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They gave out data about that quite some time ago I think... Fully depends on what you call large...
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I would still say, that when playing with more than two, that duplicates in perks shouldnt be allowed. Swf isnt a big problem overall, when playing with friends to have fun. The problem starts, when everyone in the group is bringing the best. This for example:
They brought 13 second chances, a map offering, and two stong medkits.Some would argue just dont tunnel, but in an swf with these perks THEY will force a tunnel. After forcing the killer to tunnel and hitting him with DS and DH, the team starts the protection and trys to take the killer on them so they can repeat it again and again. I would suggest, that first of all the survivor, that came of hook doesnt have colision with the killer for maybe ten seconds after the unhook, this would help the killer not getting forced the tunnel and it would help the survivor in baisment camp situations. When I have someone in baisment and I want the kill cause Im losing rlly bad, I can in like 90% of the time garantie, that I get the down, because I can bodyblock the unhook easly for the durration of base BT. After the change I couldnt do that anymore and it would help me when I dont want to tunnel, but get forced two. The other like I said would be not allowing duplicates in Perks on survivors in a group more than two. Idearly this would only apear, when the player has more the 200h hours on survivor, because newbies dont have that many other perks at the start.
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not necessarily . However when in a swf map offering ahould outright be disabled because it allows a 4 man tk stack way to much in their favor. Perhaps limiting the maximun # of bnps or insta heals in a lobby would help. 4 man isn't broken by itself , it's when they stack every steong perk , add ons and a map that it just becomes a bit much.
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I feel your pain. Like I mentioned in another post, matchmaking needs to be fixed so that survivors are getting like-minded, like-skilled teammates. Until then, it's completely random and the devs won't know what to balance off of, because they'll just see survivors losing all the time, not knowing that it's bad teamwork and not the killer being too strong that's killing them. SWF definitely needs a nerf though. We shouldn't be bringing solo up to their level, because that'd make solo broken as well. SWF can just be playing with your friends, yes, but in the name of making the game balanced I think they need a gen speed slowdown, so that the teams that do play to win with it don't just annihilate all the killers they come across. "But that doesn't happen all the time." Right, because the killer isn't a low tier running meme perks, they're a mid tier or above with meta perks. And they're having to run that just to compete with SWF who are trying to win, but can really just mess around with altruism and whatever perks. When SWF is playing to win and brings good stuff, there's few killers who can beat them. They don't have to be that skilled at chase or anything, because gen speed. You used to have things like 25% Pop and multi-use Pain Res to curtail it, but with all the nerfs I'm afraid even mediocre teams can beat good killers now. The killer gets punished hardcore by not tunneling and camping, and now they pretty much can't do that. So what's left? Slugging with NOED. That's what the game is currently balanced around.
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I'm all for making solo queue less painful, but all that would be very annoying and distracting visually. Not that I have anything better to offer. One of the main problems with both roles in the game is one I think a lot of live service games are going to face. You have a dedicated passionate player base already established, but you want to attract new players and grow the game as well.
New players aren't going to be thrilled with the game when they're matched with vets who flatten them instantly, and they're aren't really enough newbies to match them together consistently.
At this point it's not even a DBD problem. Imagine picking up Rainbow Six: Siege or Hunt: Showdown as a new person. These games have been out for the better part of a decade. And any attempts to balance with new players in mind is immediately hated by the old heads for "dumbing down" the game they fell in love with or flat out exploited.
It's quite the conundrum. I wish I had a solution.
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I'd argue not, but i am saying that MMR means it is not a party game, not that a non-party game must have MMR, that would be a fallacy to assume that.
Yes MMR means it is not a party game, but sometimes there are games that are not party games that do not have MMR.
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Source of that data?
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According to the latest stats on SWF, no. They do not need nerfs.
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According to those same stats, nurse needs massive buffs and skull merchant is the most overpowered killer to ever exist in the history of dead by daylight.
Do you believe both of those statements to be true?
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I feel your pain. A swf out for blood can be a miserable experience, coupled with the fact they're usually less than sportsmanlike after the fact. I've been playing killer long enough to not see them as such a problem anymore, and their reactions to getting trounced are often hilarious.
But I get it. This game is turning into multi-player Sekiro, and that's not a good thing.
After I got ruthlessly bullied by swfs WAY back in the day, I used my hatred of them as motivation to become as good at killer as possible. The desire for revenge took me to Iri 1 many times.
I can't really suggest that you do that, but it is an option. And thematic as well!
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Well I would say you are wrong in both parts… Because A. even before it had mmr it had a different way of measuring skill and putting people of similar skill together, which is technically nothing else than mmr, it is just not a number but a rank, and it had different things that were relevant.
B. I honestly don't know how party games work when it comes to matchmaking… So let's say you play whatever partygame… TCM or Mario Party or whatever… How does the matchmaking decide who gets paired with who?
I would differ between competetive and party game by looking at how much rng is involved… If we look at competetive games as a whole they really focus on player skill and mechanics and try to negate RNG as much as possible. In that sense for example dota 2 got rid of some % chances and made it every x hit, that fall under the category of competetive game. However DBD really does not do that, the game has so many RNG heavy factors that just turn the game into the complete opposite direction just because you got unlucky: Skill check when leaving the gen, 4% on hook, map RNG and so on and so forth, based on those I would say DBD is not a competetive game but goes rather in the category of party game.
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There you go.
Considering this possibly the newest set of data on that matter we can either see this as a direction or just blind guess..
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Btw. on a side note, while checking how it gets described on steam I saw this:
Game journalism is really high quality these days… So at least those guys think it is a competetive game.
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Right, so it affects ~10% of the players in this case.
And some of those 10% will find another friend to play with. It's not that hard.
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Right, so even they think its a competitive game.
These people screaming "party game" are trying to hold onto something that isn't real. DbD is a competitive game.
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10% is quite a lot… And don't you think if those guys wanted to play with another guy they would already have? That just limits them in playing when they are currently not 4…
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I think those reviews are from the beginning of the game… Where people did not know looping and the game had real infinites… There is no way that a game with as much rng as DBD can be considered competitive… Even comp needs to do so much to make the game somewhat competitive and cannot fully negate some things.
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Survivors: Not really, apart from very specific things. SWF: Yes. Loadout restrictions where between the members of a group, any perk, item, add-on and offering can only be present at most once. Leads to more loadout diversity, gets rid of ridiculously stacked SWFs, opens up design space for future perk/item/add-on/offering releases and adjustments because they won't be limited anymore by concerns of a group stacking and abusing these things in coordinated manners.
As for matchmaking needing to be more strict, that is something I agree with even independent of "balance" or SWF, and it in fact is all the more so relevant on killer because once you pass a certain skill/experience/knowledge threshold, the current (and past) matchmaking will consistently fail to give you competitive opposition as killer.
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The problem is when Behavior does stuff to help the solos they end up overpowering the SWF. SWF is EXTREMLY overpowered. They need to separate SWF from Solo and then change the game for SWF to balance it. Like a team can only have 4 different items. No more 4 flashlights, toolboxes, etc. One gets flashlight now the next can have a toolbox. This would eliminate bully squads and two hooks vs three for SWF teams. Three is way too many in those situations.
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The thing about dbd is that its not always "a good team" or "a bad killer". Sometimes/alot of the times, its just that you are unlucky with RNG. A map will generate tiles, these tiles can spawn with pallet/window combos that are insane, but they can also be super trash. I've had games with only god tiles, where i lose as killer. And i've had maps with only bad tiles, where i win at 5 gens. So its relies much on rng. You could meet the same group again, and have a really god setup for killer. and then win ez. Would be better if they made the maps so it would be the same every game. You could learn where everything is, and map knowledge would actually matter alot more.
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Survivors on their own does not need any nerfs. That side is a chore to play in the normal mode.
SWF's, and more specifically 4-man SWF's are the ones who needs to be looked at a bit closer.
Like people have mentioned before, having restrictions on larger SWF groups (3 or 4-man) where they can not put the same perks on would be a good step in the right direction, since it can help balance the perks around solo/duo players better.
Taking out the root cause of the problems is the best approach imo.0 -
but with all the nerfs I'm afraid even mediocre teams can beat good killers now. The killer gets punished hardcore by not tunneling and camping, and now they pretty much can't do that. So what's left? Slugging with NOED. That's what the game is currently balanced around.
It’s really sad that it’s come to this point. The denialism is even sadder.
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