What are people's personal definition of gen rush?
I feel like this happens every few years where the definition of stuff like gen rush, tunneling and camping start to loose meaning in rage posts and discussion threads. This has resulted in gen rushing in particular meaning anything. 3 gens pop at once, gen rushing. Game over in 5 mins, gen rushing. Bring toolboxes or gen progression perks, gen rushing. Not healing all match and then getting 4 adrens, gen rushing.
To me gen rushing is min maxing generator progression, progressing generators while doing as little of anything else as you need to that could help in your survival of the match. That last part basically means I don't think people doing gens instead of clensing dull totems or opening chest when they already have items is gen rushing, but doing gens over helping teammates or healing can be considered gen rushing. I don't consider having good toolboxes, perks or doing generators quickly when not pressured because the killer is on a 2 minute chase gen rushing.
I don't think gen rushing is an issue inherently and it should be seen as another stratergy which, although sometimes unfun to play against, is as fair and valid as the rest, like tunneling and camping, and people shouldn't be shamed or judge for using these tactic.
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I'd consider gen rushers to be people who come equipped with full gen progression builds and toolboxes. If their intent is literally to smash out gens as fast as possible, then they're a gen rusher. I rarely see these folks though. I agree that it's just another strategy.
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Your opinion is correct. Gen rush is certainly a threat to the killer, but it is the result of game balance and the killer's mistake. I agree that it is hard, but the survivors are not to blame. If the killer is not making any mistakes, it is a problem of game balance.
Tunneling, camping, gen rushing, body blocking thwart a killer, are all tactics. Everyone must has to sign a consent form for this.
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Genrushing in my mind is basically being glued to the generator without taking into consideration whether or not it is a good play or not. Basically prioritizing generators over everything else, despite it possibly leading you to lose the game. So for example sticking to the Gen and not unhooking someone for no good reason.
There is just no incentive to do chests and dull totems anyway, so not doing those does not lead to Gen rushing. The same goes for not healing as that can be a strategic decision. And full builds to do gens faster also don't really count, because whether you go for a heal build to save time there or for a gen speed build to save time there is not really that different, in both cases you are trying to save time.
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I don't consider having good toolboxes […] gen
rushing.Why? What could be more gen-rushy than quad commodius (+ adrenaline)? In fact I think this is the only valid definition of gen rush - bringing strong items and certain perks in quantities to maximize time on gens. That includes styptics and syringes. One commodius without charge addons, 2 resiliences and an adrenaline is hardly a gen rush even if one surv has all 3 of them.
Your definition is flimsy at best. You said more about what you consider not gen rushing than what you do while being as vague as possible.
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Genrushing doesn't exist anymore, the term came when the old brand new part was here and 4 survivors could all bring one and insta pop 4 gens in under ten seconds and people have just clinged on to the term ever since, but at this state of the game you can't pop multiple gens like that fast anymore so it's not truly a genrush, the equivalent would be someone complaining about hook rushing and downing survivors too fast, both sound ridiculous because they're just doing an objective and in my opinion I feel like the gens are fine now, I got so accustomed to the abuse we use to face as a killer that this all seems easy now I won't play a top tier killer because it's boring I find the weaker killers still bring me joy in having a good action packed match as to where back then it was the opposite I used to only play top tier and never touch the weaker ones.
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Ah, so that's where it originated. Thank you for letting me know.
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Simply because doing gens is the main objective? You are not really rushing it, just because you try to do it faster, doing your objective as fast as you can is basically the goal, it only becomes rushing when you neglect everything else to brainlessly do so despite the negative impact it has on your team/your chance to win.
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Gen Rush to my mind is more a team thing than an individual thing.
It's when most or even the whole team take Commodius Toolboxes with BNPs and/or max charges, with perks to support the rush like Deja Vu, Fast Track, Hyper Focus or whatever to crank the gens as fast as humanly possible.
Is Not really something you can condemn, it's just kinda boring.
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For me:
- Its when 2 survivors decide to complete their Gens instead of unhook the 3rd survivors (while Im chasing the 4th one).
- 3 or 4 toolboxes, or/and stacking more than 4 perks that related to Gens. I mean they invest alot into Gen related perks/items.
Otherwise, I really dont see how Im making bad play causing 2-3 Gens done in the background as Gen rush. I mean what are they suppose to do? Waiting for teammate to get hooked before doing Gen?
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There is difference between playing the game and using borderline busted tools, that the devs refuse to address, to do it. In other games this would be called a cheese - something that is much easier to execute than to defend against. Though unlike other games defending this cheese is even more difficult to deal with due to multiple layers of RNG and the 1v4 thing.
Toolboxes are the fastest way to do gens so bringing multiple of these is a clearly an intended rush. They could be bringing different items.
To you last point: In solo queue you do not always know if they are brainlessly sitting on gens unless they have resilience and are dead on hook. More often than not it is just lack of coordination with the injured survs too scared to run around to find someone to heal them while no one comes to find them. Automatically attributing bad plays like this to gen-rushing is not appropriate in my opinion.
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You cannot really blame people for using tools that are in the game, this is fully on the devs that busted things are still in the game. Also arguably med kits are and have always been stronger than toolboxes, because they save you more time on average than a toolbox, at least in a normal game.
In other games cheeses are also completely valid and while the community does not like them the professional players for example in Starcraft 2 do acknowledge them just like any other strategy.
Just because you being a certain item to make something quicker does not mean you are rushing something. Maybe you will use it to Sabo?
It seems you misunderstood my point there. Brainlessly doing a gen despite knowing it affects your team negatively... If you have resilience and are dead on hook the best thing to do is sit on a Gen and don't make any sound so the killer does not find you easily... Sure it would be safer to heal up, but with nobody around and depending on the gens left it could still be the most optimal play.
In soloQ more often than not it is better to not run around looking for a teammate to heal you but to just do the objective, because the risk of running into the killer or wasting way too much time is just too high.
My definition of genrushing is that it is a bad play because despite it not being optimal and the person that does it knowing it is not optimal they still decide to do it and just sit on a generator leading to their own downfall... I don't think you can call the most optimal play Gen rushing. Because what else are people supposed to do? You want them to play worse despite knowing better?
The point is doing gens as fast and as efficient as possible without sacrificing your teammates needlessly in the process is the most optimal thing to do, so if that is Gen rushing then you are basically complimenting the people doing that. Because they are just doing their objective in the most efficient way, they are doing what they are supposed to do.
People sometimes tend to compare Gen rushing to tunneling and that is by my definition only valid if you compare it to mindless tunneling, in a similar way to my definition of Gen rushing there is an efficient way to get your objective done and there is a mindless one that will usually be worse than just playing normally. You can go for the weak link if you catch it until they are out or you can juggle two survivors so they both die early or you mindlessly tunnel one guy no matter how bad the chase goes, you basically have the same tunnel vision on this survivor like the survivor has on his Gen while Gen rushing, in both cases the player loses sight of the main goal to focus on something that will not help him in the long run.
But otherwise both people are just trying to do their objective in the way they seem fit for it, which is basically just playing the game.
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Gen Rush is whenever a survivor dares finish a generator and not let the killer win at 5 gens. Killers take it as a personal attack when Generators are done and think winning at anything but 5 gens is a bad thing. They don't seem to realize a 4k at 5 gens or a 4k at 1 gen have the exact same value.
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Unless you are playing in a tournament ^^
And technically also for the emblem system...
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- It's the same when a killer wins a game with 4 - 3 generators left to repair. no one talks about "kill rush" and on the contrary it is something quite """normal""" in this game. But when the survivors hurry in their objective, in this case the complaints start. After years I think we are all addicted to this double standard😶
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Gen rushing is kinda like tunneling in a way that everyone has their own definition. Gen rushing for me would mainly be exclusive to SWF where they have dedicated gen perks and all carry tool boxes with one main objective to blast out gens as fast as possible. Other than that you would be very unlucky to get 4 solo queue players with the same intentions or ability to coordinate such a tactic.
I've noticed gen speeds seem to be Tru3ta1ents next big click bait title videos. In one video he actually throws a bit of a wobbly and throws his headset off. Thing is he spends like 2 mins on the first chase and makes multiple mistakes and is surprised that 2 gens pop in that time with a further 3rd gen a little while later. Has bad RNG on his scourge hook placements. Still manages to draw even though he misses multiple shots with Slinger. Comment section goes wild about the injustices that killers face from all his fanboys that hang on every word he says. It's kinda sad and funny 🤣
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Gen Rush - A term used to describe when survivors complete gens faster than the killer would like, varies from killer to killer.
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Funny that you mention Starcraft 2 when a lot of cheesy strategies/mechanics have been nerfed or entirely removed or are still getting nerfed, some nerfs come late but this is better than never. Roach spam was nerfed between closed beta and release of WoL, Warpgate research time was increased early on in WoL to combat 4gates, Khaydarin Amulet was removed so no more Psy Storm warp-ins, Mothership's blackhole was removed so no more Archon toilet, since LotV warp-ins on map are more difficult so everyone needs to spend resources and time on getting a Warp Prism, Banelings vs Probes were nerfed, Widow mines no longer stay invisible when on CD because they were obnoxious in mineral lines and required no thought, Liberators are getting their range nerfed for the same reason. There are probably more but you get the idea. I have played SC2 at GM level. Neither do I condemn cheese nor blame players for using them. In SC2 cheeses demand a certain mechanical profiency and game knowledge to defend against them and mainly punish greed. Thus they are fair game in most scenarios. What was imbalanced and extremely cheesy however were the Winfestor into GGlords and Swarmhost debacles in WoL and HotS.
DBD cheeses that were nerfed: hitting immediately off hook (basekit BT), face-camping, 3genning and a couple of survivor perks. FTP+BU is next.
Just because you being a certain item to make something quicker does not mean you are rushing something. Maybe you will use it to Sabo?Please pardon my French but do not piss in my ear and tell me it is raining. Brown or yellow toolbox, sure, who cares. On the other hand Commodius with double charges/BNP is not getting used to sabo unless the user also brings Built To Last/Scavenger, and even then the first round is pumped into a gen. Remember, I said bringing items in quantities. I do not consider one green toolbox with mild addons to be gen-rushing. I am talking about a full loadout of any combination of fat toolboxes and syringes/styptics. Not one, not two, but a full four strong items that take off a massive chunk of time. Maybe the Nurse/Blight/Spirit/Billy with Knockout, Infectious, Deerstalker does not intend to slug. Who can tell?
It seems you misunderstood my point there.I understood you perfectly, I just disagree with what you consider rushing and I am baffled by what you do not consider rushing.
If you have resilience and are dead on hook the best thing to do is sit on a Gen and don't make any sound so the killer does not find you easilyI disagree. Doing this when your unhooker has We'll Make It and you know for a fact the killer is across the map at 3 gens is brainlessly playing your own build with no regard for the state of the game or the team. Thus it fits your definition. I used Resilience as an argument because their users are more likely to throw a game for 9% gen speed and overconfidence in their chase abilitly. Just because you have it does not mean it is smart to throw the game in an attempt to use it. If you are getting camped and have to scurry away, sure, but this is not automatically the best play especially if the only two hooks in the game are on you. To me this is a case-by-case decision. The best play might be to not sit on a gen at all even with Resilience + Adrenaline.
genrushing is […] bad play because […] not […] optimal and the person that does it knowing it is not optimalBad play is bad. Cool. Just because you know it is not optimal does not automatically give you better options. This is the lack of coordination I was talking about. Some of these survs would prefer to be healed. Your definition is not even a definition. You just say gen-rushers have bad game sense and make bad decisions because of it. Your first post was much better
Basically prioritizing generators over everything elsewhich I am almost inclined to agree with but even this statement is lacking.If bringing every possible item to shave off as much time as possible is not a rush then 6 pool and proxy gates are not rushes either.
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How exactly do med kits help you do gens faster? Sure both save you time, but so do healing perks or gen speed perks, but assuming that somebody wants to genrush because they are bringing a heal perk is a bit off… All those perks do is cut time short you would spend on a certain action and therefore you able to spend more time doing something different, for example gens or healing. However what other perks are there? Because this kind of sounds like no matter what perks they bring to save time on actions, and therefore have more time for gens, they are gen rushing, and that is absurd.
Funny comparrison, considering Nurse, Blight and Billy cannot use Knockout effectively, since it requires a basic attack…The difference between those two concepts is that you can use those items to also sabo or use them in whatever way you see fit, however knockout and deerstalker only give value when you slug.
Well with Resilence you always need to decide whether you take the risk or not, but as long as they thought about what could be the proper play and did not just go like "bar goes yellow nice" then it is all fair.
Of course it is an assessment case by case, but that's my whole point… If you think about what the best thing to do is, and your decision making leads you to therefore sitting on the gen, then that is not gen rushing, because it is most optimal play. As soon as you think about what the optimal play for the given situation is and you don't just sit on your generator without taking into consideration what this will lead to when it comes to the outcome of the match and your teammates then I don't consider this gen rushing anymore. Generally you want to play in a way the killer can not get rid of you easily, which is why I said sitting on a gen without making noise… Ofc this also involves leaving that gen when you think he will come back soon, so to not give him a kill and making it a 3v1, I thought that to be a given.
I mean sure I could have also repeated the part from above again, but what I wanted to include the idea of it not being thought through before they do it. Just sitting on a generator might be the best play given the circumstances, even prioritizing it over your teammates in that situation can be the best play, however it always needs to thought about if that is the case. Because otherwise they are just brainlessly rushing the generator, that's my whole point.
Well if you go by that definition than bringing healing builds, deliverance, resilience and medkits are also gen rushing… For that point, does it even matter if you do gens faster for it to be a gen rush or does it also fit when you just cut every other activity in the game short so you can spend more time on gens, and therefore get all gens done just as quick?
I don't think those two things are comparable, in Starcraft time does not necessarily work against you, you can just play a macro game if you don't feel like cheesing, however that does not really fit DBD, as survivor time is against you and the longer the match goes the less ressources the map still has. For that reason you kind of have to act with a sense of urgency and rush your goal to some degree, which is why I don't think the comparisson fits in that manner.
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Doesn't really exist unless it's like a full 4 man squad with commodious bnp streetwise btl
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If all 5 gens are done in less than 5 minutes, I consider that gen rush. Anything else is fine (more or less).
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A lot of games tend to be called "genrushes", typically because of a bad first chase. If you're unlucky, you might see 3 gens pop at roughly the same time. That's not really genrushing, so much as the survivors not having anything else to do.
That said, there's also the 4-man premades bringing toolboxes, hyperfocus, streetwise and whatnot… That might well be defined as a genrush, as they quite literally play the game to see the gens fly.
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So you consider it genrushed when the killer is chasing one guy for 5 minutes and cannot catch him, while his teammates just do all the gens? Which should take them 4-5 min? Is that gen rushing then? (3 survivors on 3 gens, 85-90 sec each (great skillchecks included) then maybe 20 sec of walking and another 90 sec for the remaining 2 generators, 1 duo one solo gen, so we are at roughly 3.5 minutes now… That's even faster than what you proclaimed, but is this really gen rush? Like what else are those guys supposed to do in this situation when the killer does nothing.
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4 competence survivors
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Definitely if people rush gens with tool boxes and gen perks. However, say there’s 3 people alive, 1 dead, and 2 gens left than I can see people doing this strats.
If one person can run the killer for long enough than the other 2 need to get on a gen together and finish it as fast as they can before the surv getting chased goes down. Gen pops, 1 gen left to do, random surv goes for hook save, and the other takes chase (if they can hold chase for awhile). If the surv who got the save goes to work on another gen whilst the injured surv (who just got saved) gets on a separate gen to spread gen pressure than you should be able to escape which could be consider a gen rush strat. However, I call it gen/chase efficiency but I’ve seen people complain about that as gen rushing. Once a gen is about 60% complete than it’s hard for a killer to get that gen back (to have it regressed)
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You're right. I should have explained this a bit better. When the killer performs average to good and the gens are still done in 5 minutes, that is gen rush. This means the killer isn't afk, they don't play like a bot, they aren't a complete beginner and they do get some hooks (at least 3).
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You do not need me to tell you how four syringes or styptics extending chases by 20s each help you do gens.
Right, Knockout should probably go in the nerfed cheese category for Nurse. Billy could still use it though if he wanted considering how quickly he can bounce between survivors. Even without it Infectious, Deerstalker tells the story I wanted to tell. I also have been slugged by a Blight with Knockout this year, so there you go. He did not need for or use it on me after the first down but it still helped him. If I had known this would come up I would have saved his VOD.
does it also fit when you just cut every other activity in the game short so you can spend more time on gensInteresting point. Probably no for any random shortcut. Like I said quantities.
I do not know how well versed you are in RTS and SC2 specifically but you cannot just play macro especially vZ. In TvZ and PvZ you absolutely do not want to let Zerg get into the lategame uncontested. He will roll over you with a massive economy. Once there on even footing some Zergs really do not want to deal with Skytoss so they better do something to prevent a critical mass if P goes for it. TvP is similar. T units work better than P units do in low to medium numbers and Terran needs to keep Protoss high tech unit numbers in check just like P needs these units first to survive and then to push. ZvZ you just die if even get mildly greedy. And then there are the resources at your bases that will run out eventually. LotV main bases are empty 8min into the game.
This has gotten a little off-topic.
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That's the definition I go by, too. You need something that actually allows you to speed up gens, otherwise it's just bog-standard 'doing gens'.
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Oh so stuff that extends chases is now genrush as well? At this point I have to seriously ask which perks you don't classify as gen rush perks? Because currently we have healing, gen speed, chase perks and what not… That rules out almost every category of perks that exists. When you have such a wide definition then everything is genrush, playing against better players is also genrush, because the loop you for longer…
I mean sure, you obvoiusly don't want to leave the opponent alone for the entire match, but you can still aim for it, a little bit of harassment here and there so you get the upper hand economically speaking and then your goal is to win around x minutes, but that is just not something you can do in dbd, sure starcraft also has limited ressources, but not close to how limited they are in DBD…
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But then we sitll have the issue of what else are survivors supposed to do… So you're limiting it to pure gen times, which probably can also be reached if you just play efficient. So if they are just sitting on gens, as expected, there are no secondary objectives like hex totems or a secondary killer power that needs to be taken care of, what are survivors supposed to do otherwise? All they can do is gens, unless they want to have a harder game than necessary, I don't know about the time limit exactly but potentially that is the direction in which it goes…
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For me it's when survivors immediately get onto gens and only focus on doing gens for the entire game. Obviously they'll still be unhooking and being chased and stuff but the moment they have ANY downtime they're immediately back on gens.
They don't have to bring perks or toolboxes or anything, they just have to focus heavily on efficiently doing gens.
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But what else are they supposed to do? That just describes normal gameplay… Gens are the main objective, and if there is not some sort of secondary killer power in play that has them do certain things or hex perks then what else are they supposed to do? Just do bones and chests for the sake of it?
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I don't expect them to do anything else, I'm just explaining what I consider gen-rushing.
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So you consider normalgameplay to be gen rushing? By that logic every team that is not completely new should always gen rush as it is basically just playing the game normally xD Fair enough I guess ^^ Kind of makes the phrase useless though, as it does not describe anything that is not regular gameplay anyway.
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I mean it's the same as tunnelling, it's just people playing the game the most efficient way possible. It's not the players' fault for playing the way that makes sense.
Luckily for me at least, most teams I go against don't do gens as efficiently as possible and I'm thankful for that ^^
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It is not any one single perk or item but the the full loadout of all four survivors, or maybe just three if that SWF just happens to be short one guy, to be a clear indication of a gen rush. Basically what a comp-squad would bring on their 4min adventure which likely would include at least one Deliverance. Maybe that is too wide of a definition and that would be okay with me but for you even four busted toolboxes are not a rush so your definition is certainly too narrow.
It does not matter how close DBD and SC2 are. The point was both have cheeses, gotten some cheeses nerfed and both have resource as well as time-constraints. By the way I did not bring up that game.
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The point is almost every valuable perk falls in one of those categories, maybe aside from information perks, everything else stalls the killer, makes chases longer, saves time on gens or heals… So if you run a good build you will have a combination of those perks… If you run a decent loadout and the other guys as well this would fit your definition.
I just think gen rushing is not really a thing, people just play efficient, but I would not call it rushing.
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That's not how it works though. Your average game goes way longer than 5 minutes. That is because, the survivors and killer are somewhat equal in skill, which means, that the killer will reduce the survivors' efficiency greatly by hitting, hooking and chasing. If I can't get quick downs I will probably lose. But I sure as hell am not going in under 5 minutes. Because all it takes to reduce survivor efficiency is constantly being on them.
5 minutes games only happen due to either bad matchmaking, someone afk (can be either a survivor or a killer), or gen rush. You do not achieve that level of efficiency by just playing on the same level as your opponent. Even if you're noticeably better, that is something that is very unlikely. To achieve that kind of pace, you need to bring something into the match, that really speeds up progression ⇒ gen rush. Even when CoH was super meta, my games weren't this short without something to speed up gen progress.
I think you underestimate how little 5 minutes actually are. A long game of DBD is around the 12-15 minutes mark. Normal games can take from about 7-11 minutes. 5-6 minutes is what I would consider fast but not rushed. Both sides have a lot of things that greatly reduce their efficiency, which limits their ability to rush their objective. Unfortunately however killers currently have less limitations (see tunneling).
Edit: Typo
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people just play efficient, but I would not call it rushing.Those are neither mutually exclusive nor dependent on each other.
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- I remind you that we are in 2024 and not in 2019. with some exceptions, maps are smaller, the number of pallets is decidedly fewer and less safe, killers (in general) are more oppressive and there are perks like Pop and PainRES practically everywhere… if not having focus on gens, you will die.
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On average for sure, but I just think in some games you might be fast enough to still do so, despite playing decent, without doing anything spectacular.
I would say it also gets severely limited depending on the killers perks, it could only be achieved if the killer does not bring specific slowdown perks. But yeah maybe I am overestimating how quick people could be ^^ (Kind of funny, I typed that before reading your thrid paragraph ^^)
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For me: Deja Vu, Built to last, streetwise and the big toolbox with add ons.
I use this for the do x gens challenges.
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I would say otherwise, because if it is basically just normal gameplay but efficient it would not need a specific term to describe it, then it is just "playing the game" or "being efficient", why call it gen rush to begin with? It is not like they do something abnormally…
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On average for sure, but I just think in some games you might be fast enough to still do so, despite playing decent, without doing anything spectacular.
Yeah. But calling 4 BNPs gen rush has kind of the same issue. I have had survivors that used pretty much everything they could to speed up gens and they were still progressing at a snail's pace.
There is no perfect definition for gen rush I am affraid. It can happen without toolboxes or medkits and it can happen despite slowdown as well. These are things that can have a big impact on a match but just as a SWF doesn't turn 4 casual players into tournament winning basement dwellers, this doesn't mean the match will take more or less than a certain amount of time.
I remember a match not too long ago in which I was playing Nemesis on Midwich with Eruption. Despite Eruption giving me a ton of value and the survivors not having anything too extreme (some normal toolboxes and I think 1 Deja Vu), the match ended in under 5 minutes with all of them escaping. They were extremely efficient though and they also stopped healing and just put everything into doing the gens faster. Of course I consider that gen rush.
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Efficiency is the mark of good play. It just means you are doing more effective actions in less time allowing you to do more things earlier. In other words: being more efficient makes you a better player, not a rusher. Though you can obviously rush better if you are a better player.
Four great survivors without any perks or items might get a 3man out in 5min and four weak survivors with all the perks and four busted toolboxes get 4k'd after 15min in the same matchup in their respecitive MMR-ranges. This does not mean the former were rushing or the latter were not. The result or quality of gameplay is not the important part but the intent is and what you do, or in DBD's case bring, to achieve it.
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Genrushing is focussing just on Gens and nothing else. Up to the point of letting others die on Hook to complete Gens as fast as possible.
Genrushing is not "I play Killer and think the Gens are too fast :(".
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Priorizing gens over anything else, ig 2 ppl on hook? Imma stick to the gen. Killer slugging? Imma stick to the gen. Full stack on Devour Hope? Imma stick to the gen. The crazy thing is that this works out in a lot of situations.
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I don't really like the term "gen rush". I get it. Sometimes it feels like those gens just pop off like crazy. As the killer, you are feeling the pressure with each one. But the term gen rush itself feels like it has a negative connotation. It's like "How dare you complete the objective the game has clearly set forth in an efficient manner?".
The only time I really feel gen rushed is when my chases are relatively short. I'm hooking players consistently and the gens still are getting annihilated. It's like "how?". How can those gens be getting finished that quickly when from my perspective I'm winning every chase? But I never hold it against the survivors.
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