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We need to solve the giveing up problem
Comments
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I think it’s a perception issue. A perception of hopelessness. When Survivors 4% themselves out of a match it’s done for a reason. It could be anything really, trolling, throwing, loss of hope, actual hope etc. I never DC as a Survivor. And I can not tell you how many times games appeared to be a lost cause that ended up getting turned around where some of us escape.
I pride myself on sticking it through to the end of a match. I also pride myself on never losing hope that some kind of comeback can happen, even if it’s hatch. However, even I experience false hopelessness of the redemption of a match sometimes.
I know most people don’t share my levels of optimism so I imagine that the perception of a loss is much stronger for other players and they decide to give up as a result.
It really isn’t over until it’s over with this game. In fact, some of my most exciting moments from the game have come from matches that look impossible to turn around.
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And what's stopping that survivor from just running to the killer? You can't force people to play no matter what. And banning people for having rough days is a quick way to have a dead game and really really bad media backlash as click bait story's about people getting banned for fake stuff like "controller dying" or any other non sense go wild.
Really your best solution is just let them leave no penalty and give a bot. Atleast the rest of the people can play a proper game. The issue with this solution is the them vs us mentality that will make (us) feel like they lost and it's hard not to punish the other side to fix a problem because bad people need punishment not to get there way well here we are like the old hatch stand offs lol
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1 AFKing is really hard to prove and running to a gen and clicking repair with toggle on in settings and walking away is a really easy way to die. As you fail every skill check and keep working on the gen.
2 you don't get punished for not working on gens you can't get banned or otherwise from it
3 while griefing your team is actually wrong and bannable I doubt it happens much as you need to prove that the person intentionally failed skill checks or blocked a window or door purposely instead of just being in the wrong place at the wrong time
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Do killers get a reasonable comeback mechanic too? Because it certainly feels horrible to have someone predrop a single god pallet, run to a corner of the map and have 3 gens get done before you land your first hook.
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A better solution to survivors is to make it impossible to remove a survivor from the trial early. My suggestion to address camping, and tunneling is usually as follows:
- Remove the 4% mechanic so survivors can't nope out early
- Remove the AFC mechanic, you won't need it.
- Survivors now share the 1st hook state.
- Basekit kindred so you know what your teammates are doing and if the killer is camping
Sharing only the first hook state means, if you hook someone, then tunnel them, then hook them, then tunnel them, then hook them, you didn't kill them, you just burned through 3 of the survivor's shared health states. Which mean the absolute earliest it becomes possible to eliminate a survivor from the game, is on the 6th hook.
Also, because you only share the FIRST hook state, and not all of them, you won't feel cheated because the rest of your team wasted all the hook states and now you are dead on your first chase. This way at worst, you'll still get a "second" chance that is all your own.
This also means weaker players are able to play in teams with their friends on not be afraid of just dying immediately.
Camping basically becomes nonexistant, because sitting through 6 hook states to remove someone from the game is a full 6 minutes. More than enough time for the other 3 survivors to finish 5 gens, 99 both gates, and coordinate a save to get all 4 out.
Tunneling becomes pointless, because tunneling someone for 6 hook states means just that much longer that the other survivors go unbothered working on gens, so you'll have to spread pressure.
I'd couple this with some basekit changes and perk changes for killer to make it so you can play the game without taking 4 slowdown perks as well, but in general this is one of the simpler ways to deal with the issue imo.
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I think this would make the game ALOT healthier overall.
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Completely agree, the game hinges on survivors having a hope of escape. Without that, the game doesn't function properly and you get something like the 'just go next' mentality.
Unfortunately, regarding the topic, the only actual fix is to make the gameplay fun. Survivors can generally accept losing the game most of the time if the gameplay is fun. So fun chases, fun or even funny moments.
Getting tunneled out 25% of the time, and having to go be a gen jockey the other 75% isn't exactly mind blowing gameplay. There's no variety, it's just 'do gens or you lose' and, with the current game balance, you're probably gonna lose anyway.
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I believe that hope always exists in match regardless of the perception.
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Killers DCing or AFKing used to be way more common a couple years ago when they were universally weaker. The same thing is happening to Solo Survivors now. 4 man’s are typically not the survivors who are DCing. Just like it wasn’t Nurses who DCed when Killer was weaker. They need to examine the reasons Survivors DC otherwise it won’t change. You won’t convince people to sit through a ten minute cutscene of them losing while they eat pallets/gen slowdowns.
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If the Killer goes AFK then that's free Gens… so sadly there's not much to be done
If a Survivors gives up on hook there should be a different punishment but IDK what that would be
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That is very optimistic of you.
I try to be a bit of a realist, and accept that the survivors' goal shifts throughout the match. At the very start, it's getting as many people out as possible. Depending on how the match goes, that shifts to getting hatch. And some people go one step further and just want to go next.
I remember a game a while back where I played with my duo partner against a wesker. The other two, Claudette and Meg, got downed together near the basement about a minute in and the killer just stood at the top of the stairs camping them. That's not a 'buckle up and we've got this' situation, it's an unwinnable scenario for survivors. That game was already over at that point, we just had to decide who might try to get hatch.
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At least there is hope of hatch.
Realistically, the times that I felt there was the least amount of hope turned out to be some of the most brilliant comebacks I’ve ever experienced. I also used to think that being realistic meant losing hope when a match appeared bleak only instead to be proven wrong by an escape.
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Feels like hyperbole, but one can never be too sure these days.
As to your question, no I do not feel that they need a second comeback mechanic at this time. Killers already have a natural comeback mechanic via the nature of the game's design. As the match goes on, Survivors get weaker via loss of resources. Be those health states, items, gens, pallets or teammates.
Likewise, I feel that would be a disservice to Killers who are genuinely weak and in need of QoL or other buffs. This would help to disguise issues instead of addressing them in a manner that those characters deserve
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Killer DCing died with penalties not actual strength.
Survivors also notably d/ced a lot when there was no penalties to do so before the 6.1 patch.
People aren't quitting, because their side is "weaker".
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I don’t think it’s the only reason but people absolutely do quit more often when their role/Killer is weaker. Role strength and how much someone feels they can affect a match contributes to DCs. If someone is playing a weaker role/Killer and no longer feels like they can influence the match they are more prone to giving up.
@Crowman …. I’m new to the forums idk why it got rid of the quote sorry1 -
The issue I have with saying 'fix the game' or 'make it more fun' is that roughly 1/2 of the games I see survivors hook DC in would have been winnable if the survivor hadn't killed themselves on hook. Some of those games weren't even a speculative win but a definite win as 2 or 3 people escaped even with a hook DC even though we only had three survivors to work with.
What I would like to see would be something like what @Reinami has suggested before or my own suggestion where, roughly stated, gens are slower while all survivors are alive but speed up as survivors are killed so the best strategy (or at least a very viable strategy) is to get all survivors on death hook and then sacrifice them.
While a lot of people give up too early their frustration stems from how DbD is tons of fun when played as intended (multiple spread out hooks) and sucks when played as efficiently as possible (tunneling and possibly proxy camp).
If the level of frustration went down then I think a lot less giving up on hook would happen.
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There are a lot of times imo where killers do not have any way to come back if gens are done fast enough there is no way for the killer to even get a kill unless they hard tunnel or camp which survivors also fly on. For the last few days I have been sharing my personal experience with the game especially in the random perk mode where gens was done so fast before I could even get one or two hooks. For 10 games in a row one night I got a total of 2 kills and every match felt hopeless. One match was so bad that I even had a survivor saying sorry to me for the rough time I had. That match was so bad and hopeless that I just gave up with no hooks and waited at the gate to to open them. This is the first time I've seen matches like this in dbd either, in my 1400 hrs of gameplay I have had many matches where I had no hope to even get a single kill. I think both sides need a comeback system esp since the MMR system is ######### and rarely ever plays ppl in the matches they should be, where they have an even chance of winning.
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Im flabbergasted how people actually justify rage quitting.
If the game is that bad that a person feels the need to rage quit, maybe its the wrong game?2 -
If these people dont want to participate why do they boot up in the first place? I dont see this weird behavior in any other game, ever.
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That sounds like both a MM mismatch and poor RNG due to perks.
I'd say give it a bit on regular modes and see how it goes.
I am sorry you've not been having a good time, for what it's worth.
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Tell me you've never played another online pvp game without telling me.
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just got done playing 72 matches of survivor in the last 2 days. Had over 25 matches where someone went afk, dc, or suicide. I did not count any of the matches where people gave up when it was clearly over. This mode have been consistently unplayable for me.
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i believe back in 2018-2019 there was a perk that gave a like a repair bonus for each missing survivor and it was never used and eventually got reworked i wanna say it was left behind but i can't remember. Also heck no to giving more pallets or giving action speed resilience was a major issue back then thats just gonna create infinites
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Obviously a perk like that wasn't used back then, nor would it be used now. That's why it would be a basekit mechanic.
Why not? The Killer is already winning handily at what is supposed to be their weakest point.
Likewise, I specified action speeds. You know, like healing, sabo, cleansing, gens etc etc. Not movement speed or vault speed. Although movement speed is something I considered.
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While this would help this would feel awful for your teammates lets say you did share first hook imagine your in a match and killer is tunneling lil Timmy and timmy sucks at chase he gets down in 5 sec this repeats til the 6th hook and timmy is dead now the 3 remaining teammates who never got chased is on second hook cause Timmy burned through the lives faster then they could do gens like how is that fair?
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You answered your own question if its not usable as a perk it wouldnt work as a basekit mechanic. Action speeds include Vaulting its like a packaged deal and picking it apart devs wouldn't do. Finally if you considered Move speed that will be an MFT situation and cause infinites again
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Wow, nice suggestion! However time should also be a component. Maybe look at the 50 most recent matches and max 1 month in the past or something like that.
Going through a rough time can result in bad gameplay but shouldn't be punished forever
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Not entirely true.
At the moment, the Survivor meta is generally perks that ensure you have a good experience. You need some chase perks to make sure you don't go down right away, an info perk and at least one anti-tunnel perk. That's why it wouldn't be used, there's simply not any room.
Vaulting could easily be taken out. I hadn't intended for it to be there in the first place.
MfT did not make infinites. There aren't any left, thankfully. Likewise, perhaps a removal of any BloodLust would also work
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They can implement a decaying feature to where if they stop DCing/suiciding they’d be back into the general pool of matchmaking. But if they don’t, it shouldn’t let them back to ruin everyone else’s matches.
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I think the flaw in this is that the game is going to have a real hard time creating lobbies once all the killers who constantly lobby dodge are moved into the shadow banned matchmaking pool.
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Well I like the how does that stop? Tunneling if everybody shares the hook state, you're going to have to get through those hooks anyways so you might as well just keep targeting, camping and hooking the weak man. As now you've gotten the people who are actually skilled on their second hook state. Obviously you don't have the answers to all situations as this is just a idea you came up with, but I personally been stuck on hook for all three of my health States because people are just oblivious they're focused on what they're doing. What happens when a survivor is stuck on hook for six states? What kind of user experience are we giving them where they can't get off the hook? They can't struggle and they can't leave without penalty? And you can bet your bacon. There's going to be three man survive with friends that are going to do that just because they think it's funny
And somebody who really just doesn't like that killer and doesn't care that they need to get six hooks and they just keep running towards the killer. Now you took a person who was originally just going to give up and be out of the game, making it a 3v1 which while unlikely is still winnable to now he's stolen everybody's first hook states I think that turns this into a team game which while I've had some convincing conversations about it, I've never been convinced this is a team game… p We don't win together. We lose individually. We don't share points. We earn them individually. Our MMR goes down even if the rest of my survive with friends escape while survivors have a shared goal, it's always better for the killer to hook someone else besides you if you're both on death Hook with all that being said, it's bad enough. Survivors can sandbag me intentionally or unintentionally drop the killer on me in Chase in order to save themselves. Now I have to worry about a bad player making my game worse.
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I personally a list of the top leaving early reasons should be complied for example
1.specfic kill
2.being first hook
3.rushing tomes
4. Bad team mates
Then each issue should be tackled accordingly for example if everyone leaves out of SM matches the instant they start would making it harder to do so suddenly give the players the will to seriously play? Doubtful...
If tunneling as become so prominent that people getting early hooked 30-60 seconds into the game means they think they should move on. Taking agency away from a player who already feels powerless in the situation isn't going to help them..
We need solutions to reasons people want to leave not ways to circumvent them from leaving or punishments for wanting to leave. Maybe there's a strong incentive for a killer to spread hooks around like a stacking repair speed debuff for each first hook that goes away on player death. Maybe a post death activity could be created that allows people to earn BP or effects the match in some way that can be slightly engaging so even when you lose you can still help in some way.
And obviously any changes made need to be balanced and buffs to killers should be considered accordingly
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AFK killers are getting a DC ban, so there is that.
But for me survivors giving up is worse.
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Easy fix- no more lobbies. Just load into a match when 4 survivors are found. It won’t be the end of the world if killers can’t see survivor items. The overall health of the game and matchmaking would improve.
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Because if you are tunneling the same guy over and over again, you have 1 survivor that goes for the save sure, but the other 2 survivors just get to power through gens for 6 hooks. You still have to down and hook that person, even if you hard tunnel them. So generally even if you spend 30 seconds doing that, the guy is on the hook probably for at least 15-20 seconds. So you are talking at least 50-60 seconds of 2 survivors just powering through gens times 6. If 2 survivors can't finish 5 gens in 6 minutes, with a 3rd supporting periodically between each hook state. They are doing something wrong.
Also survivors can make that call to NOT unhook the guy, because it takes 6 minutes to power through those hook states. So if the killer is waiting for the save to hard tunnel they are gonna be waiting a while.
Also, giving up should be a bannable, up to PERMABAN for doing it constantly. It ruins games more than anything else, and if you just take a look around. If someone wants out of the game because they don't like it that much, they should DC, sandbagging is bannable as well, so no issues there if someone "intentionally sandbags" they get banned for it, so that'll be the deterrant of that.
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Can we acknowledge that DBD is quite often not much fun for a myriad of commonly complained about reasons? Many that BHVR endorse as perfectly acceptable game play mechanics. That's fine I guess, it's their game after all and the players that enjoy engaging in these play styles are their customers just as much as those of us who find them to ruin our experiences.
I think the giving up problem could be lessened by reducing the DC penalties significantly or capping them at 15 minutes max (or perhaps even removing them altogether for the supposedly casual modifier modes). You really don't need to DC all that often to start racking up a significant matchmaking ban, hence why you get so many players giving up on hook at the earliest opportunity. I know many of my games would be improved if these frustrated players were allowed to go next and could at least give us a bot to play with.
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Really didn't know good gonna suck when I have to leavefor something real quick
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Well, if you have to do something really quick, you may not even notice the penalty.
The problem is when it happens a lot, which should not be the right time to game in a multiplayer game anyway.
I was hit because, once, I had some pressing matter while queuing and came back right at the end of the match. It was a pleasant surprise.
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You have a lot of faith in banning, punishment isn't the awnser my friend. Also a killer that needs to hook 6 times to get a kill in the current system the killer just loses. Also it appears you are definitely emotionally invested into the topic and while passions are welcome they can create hard to navigate discussions as the need to punish the unknown group that has slighted you clouds your ability to see the problems that causes these situations to happen.
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"Solo Q could use some buffs."
DO they, tho? Do they really? I'd like to point out how many buffs solo que got in the past 2 years. Anti face camp, basekit BT, the new gen regression rework to prevent three gens, nerfs to gen regression perks across the board multiple times, a way for all survivors to see when another survivor is in chase, showing all survivors what specific action another survivor is doing at all times, the visual heartbeat, STBFL was nerfed, mangled was gutted, solo que has gotten a lot of help over the years. The one other thing they tried was basekit unbreakable, but that PTB it was tried in showed why that should never be attempted again.
I gotta ask, what more do you want? Basekit 5 second DS? Basekit Kindred? When will it be enough?
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Fun gameplay would be a great start.
If they're going to take the game as a whole in the competitive direction, then solo q will continue to have problems.
This is, apparently, a competitive PVP game in 2024 that has no way to communicate with your team whatsoever. You get two emotes total, plus crouching to communicate everything, and even after 8 years no one can agree on what 'waving your arms on hook' means. There's no in match chat, no ping system, no voice chat, just... hope that you're on the same page as your teammates.
On top of that, nearly every challenge the game gives you is designed to have the survivors throw the game. So, by design, the game is trying to give your team conflicting goals so you're not be on the same page. Three of you trying to escape is just too bad, cause one guy has to break 16 totems while deep wounded.
You can list whatever you want, but the overall escape rate has dropped drastically since 6.1.0. across the board, swf or no swf, and for every mmr. So when you take into account things like map changes, loop nerfs, and killer buffs, the game is definitely not stacked in the survivors favor. And looking at the DC rate, the escape rate players experience is somewhere in the 34% range, since BHVR throws out any game with a disconnect in official stats.
The game is significantly less fun at this point. I think fun is supposed to be the point, personally.
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Remove self unhook to decrease the progress bar
but keep the 3 self unhook attempts for free
When 2nd hook, remove skill checks
Give a "die now" option at any time when theres 2 survivors left or when the gates are opened
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Some AFK killers are already doing this
Removing hooks suicides and not removing DC ban will result in almost the same thing, people will pretend to play and throw the match, but in a way that its gonna be impossible to prove that they are "griefing"0 -
That looks like botting or something. I believe it's a bannable offense.
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And how useful are these buffs?
Anti-facecamp mechanic: Too easy to play around. Either stand outside of range, or stand in their face and hit them as soon as their feet touch the ground, thereby eliminating their basekit endurance.
Basekit BT: Also easy to play around. Either hit them as soon as their feet touch the ground (as mentioned above) or ride up their bumper for ten seconds and then crash their barbecue.
Gen regression rework: Doesn't prevent 3-gen scenarios, and this scenario is still a very bad spot for Survivor to be in, and a massive advantage for the Killer. I know this from experience.
Perk nerfs in general can be adapted to, whether it's changing your build entirely or just getting used to the new perk effects.
The only solo queue buff that's actually useful is the HUD info, as it helps to slightly close the gap between solo and swf. But it's still ultimately up to the players how they use said info (if they even actually use it).
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No need to be sad. I’m enjoying myself! 😊
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That's interesting you are claiming to have a solo queue win rate in the high 70% range. I wanted to see the gameplay so I checked out your last two weeks of Twitch VODs and found you only played 7 games of survivor on stream and your win rate was actually 29% and that included a game where a killer DCed with 4 gens left (thanks to an Orange Glyph, who can blame them for wanting out of that match?).
Am I missing something with the numbers here?
Also, really impressed at your Onryo win streak. 38 games in that time frame (from my count) with all of them being 3/4k's. Over 3 gens remained on average for those games too, absolutely spectacular gameplay.5 -
I don’t only count my streamed matches for one. Also, I don’t count DCs or games where there’s a rage quit right at the start of the game since that’s essentially a DC as well and devs don’t count those. I’ve been working at the hospital with over time this past week so I haven’t streamed as much. Current win rate at this exact moment I believe is around 68% though. I put streamed and not streamed games in my spreadsheet.
Yeah I’m recording all my Onryo data on the way to p100, p85 at the moment so I’ll be there in a few days. I only started recording the data around p15 or so and I’m at a 97.8% ish win rate out of like 368 games I think. With most my losses being near the start when I was figuring out her best strats. I think I’ve had about 7 losses in those. Don’t quote my exact number I’m not at my computer atm so I’m spitballing from memory. Current win streak is at 150 and still going. I don’t tunnel either and only 1 gen slow down perk as you probably saw. I appreciate the compliment though. I never see anyone play Onryo so I wanted to see how much I could get out of her. She’s significantly better than most people think and most people play her wrong.
I just record when I feel like it so my data is for my own personal scoring so I’ll know how I’m doing. I don’t stream all of it as I don’t care if anyone believes it or not since it’s mainly just for my own interest. I’ll turn on my stream to record more this week since I’ll have some time off.
Post edited by Blueberry on0 -
It's funny how many people yell for "fix the game", when it's the community that is breaking the game
fix the community, and game will be better too
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Easiest solution: Ragequitter Queue. You ragequit/suicide on hook X times in Y games, you go to ragequitter queue until you fully complete Z games.
There, now you have to play with crybabies who all ragequit like you do, and the only way to get out is to play out the match, regardless of ragequitters.
If the killer ragequits in ragequitter queue, all survivors still present get credit towards a completed game. Naturally survivors who die early but did not give up on hook will also receive credit.
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