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Perk System Rework
something I think everyone can agree with is, Chaos Shuffle has shown more perk variety in matches is fun and facing only select Meta perks is one reason why this game has been getting stale
So while I don’t think just making perks completely random works in the permanent/core game mode it would be nice to have more incentive for perk variety while not forcing certain perks/perk combos that don’t make sense or forcing perks that you really dont want to use.
My idea:
Once you have used a perk in one match it will be set back by one tier (if it was already on tier 1 it goes on cooldown and can’t be used until recharged)
One possible way for recharging could be done normally in the bloodweb. Teachable perks from the respective character would be cheaper to recharge (and also can’t go lower than tier 1 - this I guess should also work for general perks). So everyone will have always access to tier 1 of the general perks and their own teachables. Other ways for cooldowns/recharging possible of course as it would be too punishing for new players and add to the BP grind.
One problem that arises: survivors can just easily switch through all of their characters to basically never be affected by it/just inconvenienced - maybe only in case of survivors have it for survs reset for all of them?
this may be a big shake up from the known mechanics and viewed by many as a kind of punishment, but i do believe for the fun of the community AND for balancing perk reliance isnt healthy and something should be changed.
Comments
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That sounds horrible... Why should you need to rebuy stuff to use it constantly? Especially if this also restricts the usage of non meta perks... Despite that it messes with people trying to do achievements or tome Quests, because that would also limit your tries there if you don't want to spend BP to buy something you already bought.
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Especially if this also restricts the usage of non meta perks
You just answered it yourself?
as for the achievements/: you would still have the perks on tier 1 ready.
I know this isn’t a concept that can be brought over into the game just like that. But the current perk system is horrible (nice way of giving constructive feedback btw) as it is. Tiers don’t really have any reason to exist. Meta is boring and perks are being used as bandaid fixes for base game flaws (anti genrush, anti tunnel, anti camp, anti slug)
My suggestion only really feels horrible because we are used to having all the strongest perks ready all the time
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Sure perk tiers are horrible, but why not start of by removing them instead of degrading perks to level 1,unless of course they are not the teachable of that characters in that case they get fully removed, if I understood that correctly, and need to be bought again... Certain perks become barely usable on lower levels, especially when they have weak effects already.
Your idea feels horrible because if I want to use the same build every game, because it is my go to build, no matter if it is meta or not, I have to either switch characters constantly or re buy perks after each game to not have diminished values... I'm sure my anti totem build consisting of inner strength, counterforce, small game and overzealous really needs that nerf to it... If you want to restrict meta perks you could have made the system only for those perks, but as it is it just prevents people from using the same build more often regardless of strength ( not fully prevent, but give an incentive not to...).
Yes perks as Band aid fixes suck, but how is anything gonna change in that regard with your idea?
You want people to use off meta perks? Fine, how about we introduce a system that rewards players for using perks with low pick rates or gives daily changing bonuses for using certain perks that way you reward players for doing the thing you want instead of punishing them for just wanting to play the game in the way they want.
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And I didn't even Stat of by mentioning how bad that is for newer players, veterans have hundreds of perks they can go through with dozens being usable in some way, but a new player that barely has perks not only gets diminished values on the usable ones constantly, he cannot even switch characters to avoid the downgrade and does not have the bloodpoints to constantly afford rebuying perks, which also adds up to the still immense grind for newer players.
That the idea is lacking in several areas seems rather obvious from the first read, therefore calling it a horrible idea seems rather appropriate.
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i never said there is nothing lacking at all. I am aware it would add to the grind to new players, valid feedback indeed.
it would still be possible to be respectful and constructive while saying that :) its the way you came in just stating "thats horrible" which is… horrible.
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Well there is two ways to deliver feedback, you can have a ton of text first and then the results of my thoughts or the other way around, and considering the vast amount of negative aspects the idea has I went with the second alternative.
Calling a horrible idea horrible is not impolite, sugar coating it would be though, as that would be somewhat lead by the assumption that people cannot take straight forward feedback.
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why not start of by removing them instead of degrading perks to level 1
The devs have stated they are against the idea of removing perk tiers, many including me have made this suggestion before.If you want to restrict meta perks you could have made the system only for those perks
not feasible to determine want counts as meta and what not as it’s very subjective, based on region and skill level, etc. Restricting meta perks is also only one reason for my suggestion as mentioned in OP. It’s also meant to incentivize general more perk variety and avoid perk reliance’s (which new players can fall victim to)
Yes perks as Band aid fixes suck, but how is anything gonna change in that regard with your idea?Meta perks would mask the base game problems anymore and devs would need to find base game changes to address these problems instead of creating perks as band aids.
Fine, how about we introduce a system that rewards players for using perks with low pick rates or gives daily changing bonuses for using certain perks that way you reward players for doing the thing you wantI don’t see why I have to make that suggestion when I don’t think that would work at all? You are free to make that suggestion yourself.
but a new player that barely has perks not only gets diminished values on the usable ones constantly, he cannot even switch characters to avoid the downgrade and does not have the bloodpoints to constantly afford rebuying perksVeterans wouldn’t be able to switch characters as well as per my OP - have you read everything before writing how horrible you find it??
As to Bloodpoints and grind - I already said I agree. But then you could just use another cooldown/.recharge system for used perks that would affect new and old players fairly. Maybe make it depending on how many perks you have unlocked etc.
see, that’s why constructive feedback is better than whatever you did in your first post. Open up discussion to tackle the flaws (that I never said didn’t exist). Sugarcoating is not the opposite of destructive critique.
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No thanks this mostly just punishes new players, used one of the only few perks you have, now its a lower tier until you play a bloodpoint tax.
And even if it didn't why would I want forced variety in the standard game mode. What's stopping other people from just stacking stronger stuff that they constantly recharge while I try to "interact" with the variety system. I think it just creates another layer of something unfun that people might carry on to the next match. Wow the one match I used a weaker slowdown because the one I prefer is on cooldown I got bodied while heres even more slowdown now and hopefully the system they are engaging with makes their perks weaker so its an easier win.
Too hopeful of a system and too unfun of gaps it creates
If you want a variety system put incentives on killers, "free items" and perks.
Heres how it would work, after every match 1 random item as survivor gets highlighted, 6 random perks get highlighted (as both sides) and 4 (*mostly random) killers get highlighted.
Highlighted items are free to take into the match with you so survivors always get a free item of the lowest tier (except keys will be purple or green at random) and its a bit more variety but its not forced, so you could get a medkit, or you get a toolbox and instead bring a medkit of your own.
Highlighted perks will be ones you don't have equipped but give 25% bonus bloodpoints per highlighted perk you take the more perks you have unlocked the more perks are highlighted (so you don't have to make a specific farming account with don't unlock this character they have bad perks)
Highlighted killers tag the least played killer, and 3 random killers you haven't played in the last 3 matches and give 50% bonus bp
Now you have a system with incentives for new players, progression for mid game players, and something to help give some variety to end game players who while might not need the bp would probably enjoy the game getting them to step out of their comfort zone if they so choose
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Well just because the devs are against it does not mean it is not a good idea.
There are certain perks that nobody runs with a close to 0% rate of being picked, and it is fairly obvious which perks are meta considering they have a high pick rate, there are roughly 30 perks you will see on survivor side and all the other ones barely show up, if at all... Think about it when was the last time you saw somebody run fish perk if not for the adept? (just one example as there are quite a lot of perks that don't get used...). You incentivise perk variety by making people run non meta perks, because those don't get used, but by also applying the system to those perks as well your whole effect is worthless... I could juggle 3 meta builds with that system without ever adding something to perk variety.
No it would not, there are like 20-30 perks that are considered meta, it would be super easy to just have a few builds you switch in between and then the perks just auto refresh because you did not use them for x matches... It would do absolutely nothing.
You don't need to make that suggestion, but it would be not only a better idea but also not hinder newer players like your idea does. On a side note I don't think the devs care too much about the issue of never changing meta considering there was not really much done about it over the last few years since the big meta shake up, that lasted like a few months...
That is probably the smallest issue, and you stated it more like a maybe thing, not like a given for the idea. Veterans would be able to switch towards characters that have that certain perk as their own so it could never be below level 1,so it has a least a bit of an effect on them.
I don't really think it is redeemable...
The issue is that your basic idea is somewhat to make the game horrible by taking away meta perks that work as bandaid fixes towards serious issues, and therefore make it more obvious the issue exists... However that problem is already known to everyone, the players, the devs basically everybody knows that unfun strategies like camping and tunneling work much better without certain perks and that it would be a good idea to change that... You don't need those changes to make the problem visible, it already is and has been for years. But the devs stated several times that they don't want to limit playstyles, which means tunneling and camping (not facecamping) are basically here to stay.
This leads to the issue that the idea fails on many levels...
- It affects meta and non meta perks in the same way, therefore not requiring people to use perks that are rarely seen because they can just switch between different meta perk builds without running out of possible uses, which means it does not bring more variety.
- Newer players have less perks overall so the system would need to somehow take that into account so it cannot be avoided by paying bloodpoints for perks over and over again as well as not limiting their already bad perk choice by taking away the few good perks newer players have.
- The goal to improve the game towards less band aid perks for problems that should be fixed by basekit additions is not tackled at all by this, as it is already a given and has shown its face ones again during the random perk game mode... Even before that basically everyone knew it is an issue, there is no point in shining light on it when everybody already knows. Also the tool to do that is inadaquate as your basically planning to have players having miserable games because unhealthy playstyles cannot be countered by perks anymore...
- Limitations towards tome Quests or achievements that are completely unnecessary considering they mostly revolve around underused perks anyway…
- To get more variety either the perks need to be changed to be of a similar power level or we need to make it so underused perks have an incentive to be ran, like a BP bonus
Well the idea is still horrible and it would take more time to fix all those issues with tweaks so delicate it would take many changes to get it done right, instead there are other simpler options to have more variety. Sure it opens up the discussion, the issue is just that I don't think the idea is salvageable or worth the effort to fix all its flaws, I would agree if it were minor issues but the direction was Allright, but this whole thing is just beyond repair in my mind.
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That sounds solid I would either switch the perks after specific durations or maybe even automatically based on what perk has the lowest rate of usage within the last 7 days or so... But an incentive to play with those perks would be nice, until hopefully some day we have most perks in a decent state... Well as if that will ever happen though ^^
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I understand and agree with your concern, however I feel like this ultimately is a bandaid to the bigger issue which is perk balance itself. Players would not use the same small selection of perks as much as they do if there wasn’t a clearly defined set of meta perks that were more powerful than all the other options (and provided that the other options were also useful; there are a lot of bad perks that need buffs or reworks). Having to spend BP to re-level up perks more quickly would probably end up punishing newer players the most (who not only don’t have as many perks unlocked, thus making it harder to avoid using the same perks, but also need BP more than players with thousands of hours who have everything unlocked or at least everything they are interested in).
I absolutely agree with the idea that Chaos Shuffle has highlighted this problem though and I would love to see more perk variety on both sides, as I think it would make the game a lot more fun and less repetitive. This modifier has been the most fun I’ve had with this game in a really long time.
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And I thought like the grind can't get any worse…
This is one of the worst ideas I have ever seen. Usually it's bad for specific killer / group, but this is just bad for everyone.2 -
Other ways for cooldowns/recharging possible of course as it would be too punishing for new players and add to the BP grind.
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It's still one of worst ideas I have ever seen. Even if it would be just cooldowns for perks.
It's still terrible for new players, who simply has no choice with perks.Overall it is just pathetic bandaid for bad balancing. If you want to see variety of perks, you should ask for perk buffs, so there is more valid options. But valid perks were reduced lately instead.
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that wouldn’t help either as you can’t balance over 200 perks to make all viable and some not standing out at all. There will always be a meta and perks that will be considered waste compared to them and not be used at all.
And ‚valid‘ perks need to be reduced to avoid power creep..
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There is a difference between perks being utterly useless and others winning you games… Nobody questions that it is impossible to make them all the same strenght, but they should not be that far apart in strenght.
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to get them closer together they would need to tone down the current strong perks as it’s not feasible to buff everything else to get anywhere close…
Good luck with that with this community. People are already disrespectful and insulting with minor changes or even mere suggestions..
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And ‚valid‘ perks need to be reduced to avoid power creep..
So you want to reduce good perks and then cry about seeing same builds over and over again… pick one
that wouldn’t help either as you can’t balance over 200 perks to make all viable and some not standing out at all
Of course it would help, it's not like you need to balance 200 perks, but current state is just pathetic. No new perks worth running and old perks are only getting nerfed.
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They should definitely buff the weaker ones and not the other way around. Otherwise of course the community would be against it… I don't think it is too far fetched to expect perks to have decent effects instead of them all being terrible, but closer together in strenght.
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So you want to reduce good perks and then cry about seeing same builds over and over again… pick one
I never cried about anything? Doesn’t surprise me that you use that deflection though.
I also don’t directly want to reduce good perks. Ideally, all perks would be viable and good. But without being unfair or making the game boring for either side.
Of course it would help, it's not like you need to balance 200 perks, but current state is just pathetic. No new perks worth running and old perks are only getting nerfedit wouldn’t help in the long run.
but also, old perks are not only getting nerfed?? There are changes all the time in both directions..0 -
Only buffing and never nerfing overpowered stuff would create power creep.
and nerfing doesn’t need to mean making them terrible, the world isn’t just black and white, you know that right?1 -
Which perks would need to be toned down then? Because currently I would say there are not really overpowered perks anymore. Especially with buckle up + ftp gone and background player nerfed.
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What is last time perk was buffed and got into meta? Decisive Strike… what a new perk to bring into meta, right?
This patch for example is several nerfs and new perks are also terrible. That is really not helping the situation.I never cried about anything
I consider trying to implement such bad features as crying. That's like people trying to "improve" the game with base kit unbreakable → crying on slugging.
People are already disrespectful and insulting with minor changes or even mere suggestions..
Maybe try to get some good ideas instead, that might help. I feel like this is more "you" problem.
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Maybe try to get some good ideas instead, that might help. I feel like this is more "you" problem.
I was talking about dev changes and suggestions (PTBs) but holy… you are trying to be very disrespectful towards me, aren’t you?
people can make suggestions to address problems in a game without it being crying.0 -
you
aretrying to be very disrespectful towards me, aren’t you?yes
people can make suggestions to address problems in a game without it being crying.
Depends on the suggestion. I have seen some valid suggestion about perks/killers etc. and I usually try to give valid feedback there, your suggestion is not one of them.
It's so bad I am not even bothered to try give feedback how to fix it, because it is worse than Skull merchant or Twins rework idea. That's how bad idea it is.
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I haven’t asked you to try to give feedback to fix it. That’s also not the only way to be constructive. You can be against a suggestion without being disrespectful though, see bjorksnas or sizzling mario‘s comments in this thread. There is also always the option to not answer.
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I haven’t asked you to try to give feedback to fix it.
So I guess it's good I didn't give proper feedback, right?
That’s also not the only way to be constructive.
I didn't try to be constructive, but I am pretty sure my approach displayed, how much I don't like this idea, quite well…
There is also always the option to not answer.
That's not fun. I like to write my opinion, why else would I waste my time on forum?
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To be fair, the idea is really terrible and probably not redeemable, however there is also no need to get personal on this… But you have to see it from this angle: If the idea is fairly obviously so bad that nothing about it should even be considered or can somehow be changed into being decent in the end, you cannot really expect people to phrase that differently… If it is a bad idea it is a bad idea.
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I mean… is it that terrible? Or is it only terrible from the point of view of some people?
and it wasn’t me that got personal first, I have asked from the very beginning to stay respectful even if you dislike the idea. I never asked anyone to tell my my idea is perfect when I said from the beginning I know it has flaws.
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No, it's pretty bad. Sorry.
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It pretty much is, it is basically unredeemable, it does not have flaws.. It is a flaw. The whole thing produces more issues than it solves.
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or they could just make it a regular game mode and not screw the majority over
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the dev avoiding power-creep is one of main reason why the perk game is stale. The other reason is that community has no desire to play against varied perk strategies. All that Chaos shuffle has shown me as gameplay experience is that half the perk in dbd are empty perk slots. Sometimes they're even worse then no perks. I got no mither for like 6 games. Yes my luck is that bad.
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Probably 30-40% of perks do basically nothing, as they have barely an effect or are too situational. 10% of perks can probably be considered meta and the rest is somewhere between "okayish, but there are better options" and decent.
They really need to buff almost half of the perks in the game to make them worth the slot.
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When i was playing killer, I'd get perks like Undone, Thrill of the hunt, Unnerving presence and Thwack!. It is like, what the heck are you suppose to do with these perks? it is just pointless.
They really need to buff almost half of the perks in the game to make them worth the slot.
I don't see it. the last perk was like what, ultimate weapon? They're unable to re-balance simple perks to make them usable.
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I also don't have much faith ^^ Nonetheless what would be needed is to buff weaker perks to make them usable.
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