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Xenomorph Turrets Are Too Oppressive and Take The Fun Out of The Killer
Okay so I've p100'd Xeno and very rarely play any other killer, but I feel the absolute NEED to run both Emergency Helmet and Lamberts Star Map. Without BOTH of those addons, you cannot m1 the turrets and have to go through the full missed attack cooldown. The turrets spawn constantly also. With a good team who are putting them out as they spawn, you'll be taken out of your power constantly.
If you find a survivor and there's a turret nearby, you can't just hit the survivor, you HAVE to destroy the turret first or be taken out of power. Even if you choose to tank the turret, chances are you'll be staggered so much you won't get the hit anyway.
The tail - even on max FOV 103, it takes up a huge portion of the screen, making it hard to see. It's super hard to play with The Clone skin too because it has an even chunkier tail than the rest. Xeno is the only killer whose body you can see in the centre of the screen, and it sucks.
Oh and the bug that was 'fixed' - survivors have I-frames when putting down turrets, probably 70% of the time. You'll hit them, it misses, you go on a 3 day cooldown and are taken out of power.
I know this may be ignored, but I truly hope it isn't. Xeno's a great killer but there are many frustrating things about her kit. No other killer has to prioritize survivor-placed items over chasing people.
Comments
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I think Xenomorphs entire design is kind of just… bad.
Either the Flamers are too oppressive and Xenokitty gets nothing from it, or the Flamers are too weak and Xenokitty just gets an oppressive chase power with basically no downside. They could technically find a middle area but it's insanely difficult to actually reach that point and I dont think either side will really be satisfied with the end result.
I dont really like the design idea that, "Killer is stronk, but also item completely shuts them down," since it just leads to clunky gameplay from both sides, and it is something that will persist regardless of how strong or weak the Killer is.
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I don't think you are supposed to M1 the turrets. You can use your tail to destroy them (from a distance). M1 only if you are already out of the crawler mode.
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you're not supposed to m1 turrets, you have a ranged attack for that. Also, turrets are necessary as xenomorph chases would be unbearable if there was no way to disable the tail.
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You need to tail attack the turrets, you shouldn’t be trying to m1 them in most cases.
Turrets are fine and imo both of those addons you mentioned are too powerful as they make the turrets far too easy to counter when combined.
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They should make Lambert's Star Map basekit.
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Agree, although I just use the Lambert's Star Map + Emergency Helmet add-ons to counter the turrets which isn't ideal but it works I guess.
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In my opinion the turret counterplay is fine because Xenomorph has one of the threatening M2 in the game and that for free. She can outplay so many loops and it's very hard to react. So turrets are the real counterplay for it and it is fair that Xenomorph has to priorities the turret if she cannot down the survivor as a trait for losing the crawler mode.
However, I agree that Xenomorph has some issues. Currently the M2 on turrets counts as a missed attack which results in the awful slowdown and that feels not right. The attack should count as a successful hit. The cooldown for M2 should also be 2.7 seconds like nearly every other M2 attack. This would make the counterplay much more fairer and Xenomorph less Add-On depending.
Xenomorph also needs an Add-Ons pass because many of them feel rather useless, and one or two could become basekit, but this is a different story. The Controlstrations should also spawn more reliable near the generators but this is also a different story and also effects Onryo too.
I really hope the developers will look at Xenomorph again because this is such a huge license but feels so clumsy.
Year, the Clone Skin sucks really hard due to it's thick tail but this is something the cosmetic team doesn't really care because there are so many other weapons with a similar issue. Nevertheless many killers can chose a different weapon Xenomorph Clone not :/
It's better to M1 the turrets because the cooldown is shorter and smoother. Hitting a turret with M2 counts as a missed attack and feels so awful. You should only M2 them if there is no other choice.
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turrets are ultra-broken. reduce the movement speed cooldown back to original so the killer has add-on variety without nerfing his tail.
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flame turrets are unnecessary feature. this feature should be added for nurse or something.
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Then what would be the point in playing Demo?
Their tail attack has less wind up and less warning (often requiring prediction to actually dodge), ignores pallets and windows, and can be hooked over loops. Their mobility is insanely fast and requires literally no set-up since it's already spawned on the map; likewise it cannot be removed either.
Removing the Flamers would quite literally provide no reason to play Demo since Xeno would be better in quite literally every aspect.
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demo is another weak killer that needs a lot of buffs. There is no point in playing demo now and there won't be any point for long while.
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As a Demo main… :(
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agreed
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I think the only issue with Turrets is that you get slowed down too much from destroying them. They should revert the cooldown to how it was originally but only for destroying Turrets.
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I think the chapters that followed Singularity -> Xenomorph are clearly failures. Having an object on the map as a counterplay to the killer's ability is fine, but the fact that it is so easy and unlimited in frequency is flawed.
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Usually it is better to m1 them, because that just applies the missed attack cooldown and it's way shorter than using the tail attack. However I didn't have issues just m1ing the turrets...
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The turrets are basically the only counterplay the tail attack has... The windup is like 0.2 seconds which makes it impossible to reaction dodge the thing, if not for the turrets there would be not much to do to avoid getting hit.
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No, we should make turrets even stronger. They do nothing if the are not stacked.
If you want turrets buffed, we want you to have harder chance to be able to use your power, no recover while in tunnels, longer recovery time in general because alien's power is too strong.
You don't look from the survivior side of it, and it's sad.
With alien power you are most likely to 2-tap a survivior, because you can easily play around loops and get easy hit while you are on your power - no window or pallette can stop you.
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as @Iron_Cutlass said, tail is not about reacting, it is about prediction. there is no need for turrets. it is just self-nerfing mechanic that eliminates add-on variety for Xeno. Thanks to this mechanic, Xeno's entire add-on list is also full of terrible add-on's. there is skill is not getting hit vs 0.2 charge time attacks but i am not going to go into this rabbit hole. i already went through that rabbithole with deathslinger.
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Because predicting an event that can appear at almost any given time while in range is such a great mechanic... That is just not a thing. When you are trying to predict something you need to have a tell or a hint or anything at all the gives you a chance to have more than a blind guess, and you don't have that in this case, which is why it is not reasonable to expect players to reliably do anything about the tail.
I don't think the turrets have something to do with the terrible addon design…many other killers also have garbage addons and no such mechanic.
If you have nothing that gives you a hint when the attack will come then there is no skill in not getting hit, if you don't get hit the Alien missed, you did not dodge.
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when you have a tell, it is no longer a prediction. it is reaction. You just make right play based off what your senses tell you. predictions and guessing by nature are not 100% reliable. they're inherently meant to be unreliable. the skill component is being more consistently correct than the other player.
If you have nothing that gives you a hint when the attack will come then there is no skill in not getting hit, if you don't get hit the Alien missed, you did not dodge.
i do not agree and i am not going to argue. All i have to say is… some things never change.
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If you don't have any hint then it is a blind guess, that makes it not only unreliable but there is no skill component. It is like throwing dice, there is no skill component in ordinary dice throw or guess which number comes up when someone else throws them and that is quite literally the same thing here. You are not skillfully if you guess correctly in a game of pure luck.
When you are predicting something you have certain things you take into account for the prediction, for example the weather forecast. They still don't know for sure, but they have certain information that was taken into account, basically more than an educated guess. But when you have 0 information on the if and when of something then you blind guessing. I could stand in front of you and at some point during the next 10 seconds I will poke your nose, you have 0 information or tells when it will happen, is it now skilfull just because you guessed right based on nothing... You just got lucky.
Based on what your senses tell you... You know what your senses do? They take information into account they were given... So they use information and hints... Nice contradiction there.
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Maybe this is a hot take, but for that first couple of weeks when the miss cooldown movement speed was 2m/s (which was also relevant for destroying turrets with the tail), the turrets really didn’t feel impactful enough on the survivor side since a destroyed turret didn't give you as much distance and you didn’t have as much time to get somewhere safer. Having to lose a significant amount of distance tail attacking the turrets makes them do something even if the killer destroys them which made Xeno feel a lot more fair imo. Before that it often felt like a destroyed turret was just a survivor timewaste and wasn’t even worth setting up, which felt terrible because they are the main counterplay item and they weren’t reliable at all. You can pretty consistently avoid losing your power if your reaction time is fast enough (unless there are multiple turrets in 1 location which rarely happens), and I think that’s fine, I don’t think Xeno should lose their power more often. I don’t get knocked out of crawler mode very often and I don’t usually use the addons that help with that either. But the slower movement speed after tail attacking a turret basically made the turrets more effective without actually increasing the frequency that they successfully remove crawler mode, which I think was a good thing.
I agree with improving the control station spawn logic though, sometimes you get one that is just much further away from a gen than the rest and it’s annoying especially since it’s not something you can control.
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They nerfed the movement speed to 1.2 because missing the tail attack had no drawback for the killer and avoiding it felt not good rewarded for the survivors. Also when the player hit an obstructed there was no punishement due to the good movementspeed. That was the reason why they nerfed the movementspeed. The turrets always count as a missed attack because the game code makes no difference between them and an missed attack/hitting an obstructed and I'm pretty sure they did this because that was much easier than adding a new sucessful-hit-element to the game.
I play Xenomorph alot and I don't get knocked out of crawler mode not often but this does not change the fact that this current situation does not feel good that you get the feeling of punishment for using M2 to remove the turrets. If the turrets really feel useless when Xenomorph's Tail Attack counts as a succesful hit, then there should be a change that both sides can be happy with.
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Xeno was already proven to be mathematically undodgeable (only predictions), but even with correct predictions the Xeno could have simply held power and M1'd the Surv instead. Also Xeno was mathematically proven to consistently disable flame turrets on reaction M2 (without add-ons) as long as you aren't 50% slower than the average human (and as gamers we are typically faster than the average). Ping doesn't even matter because it is client sided.
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Like you said, it is like weather forecast. the weather forecast is somewhat blind guess on what the weather is but there are weather models to predict particular patterns in atmosphere for what type of weather is likely to occur. You have similar pieces of information in dbd. There is a loop, a pallet in the middle and an Alien going around the loop. You have to use little pieces of information to predict the pattern for when the player uses tail attack.
Based on what your senses tell you... You know what your senses do? They take information into account they were given... So they use information and hints... Nice contradiction there.
Your correct but there is difference between complete information and incomplete information. The skill is using incomplete information to avoid the ability. That is how high skill 1vs1's should be in dbd. Survivor should not have complete information in the 1vs1. They should only have complete information in 4vs1.
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The weather forecast is not a blind guess? Meteorologist measure certain data and base the forecast on that... A blind guess would be flipping a coin whether it will rain tomorrow or not... They take information into account which makes it basically the opposite of a blind guess.
However you don't have incomplete information, you have no information, because you cannot know whether or not the player will use his ability, you have no hints when it will happen, you can only randomly assume, which makes it by definition a blind guess. The killer being behind you and there being a tile... Wow that is indeed a lot of information and it will help you out a lot, at any given point while he is in range of you he can press the button and hit you, and there is no way for you to know when, there will be certain assumption as to when it is more likely or not, but at the end it is a complete blind guess.
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your fine to believe that your blind guessing when you play vs Alien but your not going to convince me. His tail cast time is not 0. it is 0.2. The really good looper don't have trouble looping Xeno. The flame turrets are mostly there for swf to exploit and hand holding poor survivors. Killers have to waste add-on slots to avoid abuse.
Naymeti is really good survivor player that did a video where he was looping Alien with no perks. To you, it looks like blind guessing but to the player, he is reading the game and winning mind games with the tail. You can't win all the mindgames so your still going to get hit and stuff but there is skill in looping the Alien for long time without relying on turret cheese.
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And the standard reaction time for humans is above 0.2 seconds... So it does not really matter how much below it is, if you are not one of the very few people that have a faster reaction time it does not matter.
It is basically similar to Spirit before she had the sound queue during phasing... Everybody was blind guessing whether she was doing the standstill mind game or not and really good players still came out on top, and even those players said that they are not really out playing the Spirit, they are just making her guess as well...
On a side note given that you thought the weather forecast is a blind guess, I guess we should clear the definition: "An attempt to guess something when you have no information or knowledge about the subject and therefore cannot possibly know what the answer is."
The subject in our case is the internal information about the xeno player when he will press the m2 button to use the tail attack, which is something nobody can possibly know. You can try to make an educated guess based on how the player played before or how other players played in certain situations, but that does not fully apply either because you typically will not face the same player more often in a short span of time and because in many situations the xeno can just wait for animation lock to realise the tail or wait for you to mindgame yourself, because he does not really suffer consequences from not using the tail right away.
On the Spirit topic there was this whole Scott Jund vs Tru3talent debate on whether or not you can read the Spirit and tell by that if she is phasing or not... And even the comp players agreed that there is not really a reading happening, because you are just guessing, the best thing they could do was make the spirit guess as well and that was a really inconsistant method to increase chances. Some chases lasted a few minutes, others were done within seconds because the player guess wrong a few times in a row.
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