Vecna is extremely weak and poorly designed
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Nice way of ignoring the point, lmao.
I played 10 Vecna games today and had 3/4 kills in all but two of them. I've gotten pretty good at using his power, and it also helps that survivors aren't good at countering him yet. But that doesn't mean the killer isn't weak. I also win consistently with Dream Pallet Freddy. Does that mean he's strong?
Also, DBD is a game where getting 4 kills consistently doesn't necessarily mean a killer is strong or weak. I would think that’s common knowledge by now, but clearly it’s not the case.
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Flight of the Damned is a Zero sum.
The survivor loses a bit of speed/momentum to crouch, Vecna loses Speed/Momentum because the Cast slows him down.
After playing Vecna a bit, the only way to reliantly get some hits with it, is using it on a tile when you are not in direct view of the Survivor.
They can still prematurely crouch and avoid, but if they are, for example, waiting around a corner to drop pallette for a stun you may get a hit in, but in a chase it really is mostly a zero sum.1 -
Okay, then keep practicing. As you can see, you're getting better, you just need to give it some time.
If Nurse were released today, many players would describe her as "extremely weak and poorly developed" as it takes 30+ games to achieve. This is an established fact.
You're already doing well with your 8/10 3K games. As a nurse you would need more time to achieve the same result.
Just keep it up and I look forward to further updates on how you get on.
Edit: there is already some feedback from the devs
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Vecna's anything but weak. I'd honestly call him an A-tier killer that has some fair but strong abilities and fun counterplay. Each ability has some sort of good usage that, if used right, gets awesome value in game. I'd say use Fly to get across the map fast; Flight of the Damned to either get a hit or, more commonly, slow down whoever you're chasing; Mage Hand exclusively in chase; and Dispelling Sphere to disable the magic items that survivors can get throughout the game or find survivors with relative ease.
Ultimately, Vecna's only weak if he's used wrong. That's not supposed to sound douchey, I'm just being honest, and I don't want that to come across rude in any way.
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What? If Nurse were released today, most players with time spent in the game would immediately realize her potential and place her at the top of the tier list on day one, lol. It's not hard to gauge a killer's potential in the first few days, which is the point of my entire post. You completely ignored my arguments about the design choices I critiqued and instead jumped to kills per match, as if that indicates how strong a killer is.
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What else do you want to base it on, exactly?
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Your chase potential decides whenever everything else you do has any meaning. If you can detect everyone or be everywhere at anytime but can't get anyone downed then it doesn't matter how powerful you may think you are on the paper. Everything else simply doesn't matter.
Oh and it appears his Mage Hand will get a nerf much sooner than expected. That was fast already. Guess a hype was high enough and enough people bought him already.
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I disagree, I think Vecna is fine.
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Your chase potential decides whenever everything else you do has any meaning. If you can detect everyone or be everywhere at anytime but can't get anyone downed then it doesn't matter how powerful you may think you are on the paper. Everything else simply doesn't matter.
First off, you ALSO have chase potential, on top of everything else. He has an incredibly wide kit, you can't expect him to be king of one, and good at a bunch of others.
Secondly, and I don't know how to put this politely, but… If you are struggling -that- badly to get a down, it's not a character problem. It's a you problem.
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his skelletons attack is an absolute joke
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Why you assume that I struggle getting down? Because I say competent survivors have many ways of countering this killer?
Regardless, a nerf to his main tool has already being announced. Just as expected. Lets see how well will this killer perform when his most efficient weapon is nerfed down.
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Why you assume that I struggle getting down?
Because that is what you bring up as a counter-argument when I point out that Vecna's kit is wider than just his in-chase potential.
Because I say competent survivors have many ways of countering this killer?
That's a natural consequence of Vecna's kit being so multi-faceted. The more stuff a killer does, the more interactions survivors have with their kit, which in turn, inevitably, means more counters. This doesn't mean the killer's weak though. A killer with 15 abilities and a counter for each of those abilities, bar one, is stronger than a killer with three abilities with a counter for each of those. Even though the former has more counters.
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Give Vecna 20 abilities to detect and relocate wherever he wants, but if none actually help with getting hits and downs, then you still have a glorified M1 killer.
Vecna already has slowdown to every ability which prevents him from snowballing around. Survivors can get items on top of that and render Vecna's abilities even less useful.
I suggest you try playing at least one match against decent survivors without using a Hand of Mage. Do that and then tell us how useful his other kits are to you with their current cooldown and effects.
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Vecna doesn't just come with "a counter" for each of his (weak) powers; he comes with multiple.
Flight of the Damned:
- Dodgeable by crouching
- Dodgeable by standing in between
- Dodgeable by running up to Vecna
- Audio cue (to know when to dodge)
- Magic item that shows its aura (to know when to dodge)
Mage Hand:
- Susceptible to holding W
- Re-drop a pallet that's been lifted up
- Magic item that gives the survivor haste, completely nullifying the purpose of the power
- Magic item that shows the survivor which pallet is blocked
- Keep looping normally (lol)
Fly:
- Making sudden and tight changes of direction
- Magic item that shows the aura of the killer, revealing their location map-wide
Dispelling Sphere:
- Magic item that shows you the sphere, completely making it useless (and giving you info on where Vecna is)
Despite all of this, you will be able to pubstomp with Vecna simply because of how Solo Q is. But when facing a team of competent survivors (they don't even have to be in SWF), they will punish you and counter your abilities. In this scenario, Vecna's only strength comes from the guaranteed hits, one being Mage Hand to lift up a pallet as soon as it's dropped (which is getting nerfed soon anyway), and the other is using Flight of the Damned when a survivor is running to a vault. That's about the extent of Vecna's abilities when it comes down to good survivors.
Now, to all the counters I listed above, add the fact that each of those powers has a 40-second cooldown. This means that unless you use them in guaranteed hit scenarios, you will be punished for missing. If you go for a risky shot of Flight of the Damned in a chase, a good survivor will punish it, and you won't be able to try another shot again for the next 40 seconds. This makes playing Vecna against good survivors awful and boring since you can't take risks without having to drop chase or extending it for 40 seconds. This is simply, weak killer design.
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Give Vecna 20 abilities to detect and relocate wherever he wants, but if none actually help with getting hits and downs, then you still have a glorified M1 killer.
And that doesn't matter one bit if he's still strong. You're completely hung up on dismissing every part of his kit that isn't just in-chase potential, when he already has that, AND he has other stuff supporting him outside chase.
It doesn't matter if it's an M1 killer if the stuff outside of chase compensates for that. The stuff he has outside chase still helps him, quite extensively in one case. But then he pairs that with solid in-chase power. Most folks here have been saying they've been doing really well with him, so really, what the complaint boils down to isn't that he's weak.
It's just that he's not breaking chases on top of being really strong.
Flight of the Damned:You listed one counter five times. And as others have mentioned, this isn't always a counter as it can still trip the survivor up.
Mage Hand:How is it susceptible to holding W? Redropping and continuing the loop is not a counter, that's Vecna using the power poorly. The magic item that gives haste is the actual counter, knowing which pallet is blocked is overall useless.
Making sudden and tight changes of direction
Does not negate the distance covered in any way.
Magic item that shows the aura of the killer, revealing their location map-wide
Does not negate the distance covered.
Magic item that shows you the sphere, completely making it useless (and giving you info on where Vecna is)
Unless you can perfectly communicate it to the other survivors, it doesn't make it useless, it just makes it work worse against -you-. And even then, you could get zoned by it.
In this scenario, Vecna's only strength comes from the guaranteed hits, one being Mage Hand to lift up a pallet as soon as it's dropped (which is getting nerfed soon anyway), and the other is using Flight of the Damned when a survivor is running to a vault.
Again, plus the map traversal of Fly, and the intel of Sphere. Y'all seem to be intent on chopping this kit up, looking at each piece individually, taking specific scenarios and then saying 'Worthless' to the guy as a whole. Dude's waaaaay more complex than that and may well be the most complex killer in the game. He's getting written off because he can't instawin chases or loops without looking at the totality of his kit.
That doesn't make him bad. It makes him a macro-oriented killer. That may not be your cup of tea, or a good fit for your playstyle, but it's nothing to do with how strong he is.
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Plenty of others are talking about most of your post but I couldn't move on without saying that Singularity's built-in counterplay (EMPs) are on the whole fairly weak. Their intended goal is to prevent territorial 3 gen holding playstyles and they dont even achieve that, let alone providing any form of security when in chase.
Hux is unpopular because he is difficult. He requires good map knowledge in general as well as in specific hux-only applications, and requires you to think about maps in ways no other killer ever has or ever will again. Please stop spreading that it's because his in-built counterplay is too strong because you're going to end up getting him buffed into an unhealthy state that causes Hux players to be treated with the same disdain that Skull Merchant players are.
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In the game where gen defense has been nerfed, killer has to make chases short. Killers who can't do that might as well run from one corner of the map to another for 4 or 5 minutes for fun and move to the next until they get matches with potato opponents.
Vecna cuts his chases short mostly because of Hand of Mage, not Fly, Flight of the Damned or Channeling Orb. I'll tell you more - you won't suffer much if you only play with Hand of Mage without using other spells while if you use only 3 remaining spells but never Hand of Mage you will have to put much more effort against decent opponents.
This means those 3 ''support'' spells as they are don't decide the outcome of the game much. Sure they can be used for scouting / traversing but in reality it's one spell that allows Vecna do the job, which is getting downs and hooks asap.
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To be fair, i don't think Vecna is poorly designed. He is very well designed but not strong enough.
The issue is we are in a moment in DBD where killers need a consistent and strong anti-loop power to be viable against experienced players. Aside from mage Hand (which has a 38s cooldown) his other spells does not help much in making chases shorter, what affects directly the experience when playing as Vecna. Maybe we time people will discover more of his potential, but at least i won't main him.
He is in the pool of killers "Fun to play as but not strong enough against good survivors" that we have in this game. I believe most of the community will forget about him in some weeks and go back to play the same killers again.
Edit: Also Vecna will get """weaker""" as most of the community learn to play against him. I am getting some hits with Flight of the Dammed because survivors don't crouch or get a very bad timming when crouching; but as soon as they learn how to counter every of his powers, it will become "harder" to play as him, as survivors have magical items and will know very well to counter every of his spells.
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This means those 3 ''support'' spells as they are don't decide the outcome of the game much.
See, that's the part I just don't buy.
Sure, it's better to close chases fast. But there's idle time between chases too, and Vecna's support spells deal with that. You don't have to check up on multiple gens if you can just send out an orb to check one for you. You don't have to spend a long time moving from one end of the map to the other if you have flight. In a game of five or six chases alone, this can easily add up to over a minute of time saved.
A short chase isn't the only way to be efficient. There's stuff happening between and outside chases too that you seem to consider entirely irrelevant.
Even Fly has its in-chase use, allowing you to quickly close the gap created by the on-hit sprint. Which you also disregard.
The more you insist that ONLY his in-chase, immediate, hit-securing power matters, the more it comes off as you not understanding the killer.
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You don't have to check up on multiple gens if you can just send out an orb to check one for you
This doesn't work, if survivors got item to see the orb. You basically get false information and let survivors finish the gen for free.
You don't have to spend a long time moving from one end of the map to the other if you have flight
It's not that effective for map traversal. It's just more effective to keep it for chase, because cooldown are still high.
There's stuff happening between and outside chases too that you seem to consider entirely irrelevant.
It is relevant, you have killers with bad 1v1, but good 1v4. Like Legion, Ghost face, Hag etc.
But I don't think Vecna is good at neither 1v1, or 1v4. His map traversal is not that much better to any other M1 killer.
He is not good at spreading hits, because of his cooldowns and need to be close to a survivor for his power to do anything. You are not able to get long range hits, or get them fast on multiple survivors.1 -
A poster above me already explained things so there's little to add here other than remind you that these 3 supports spells also have long cooldown and often players use them just because they are available. Yes it's nice that you can throw an orb towards a nearby gen but if you do go towards that gen then why use orb there? It makes more sense to throw orb towards other gen for scouting. Fly is a standard traversal, but you won't use it if there's nothing to defend nearby or you aren't sure if there's a survivor nearby. Flight of the Damned is still horrible but at least you can try to use it from distance and behind the wall and maybe it will hit someone. I personally would give Flight of the Damned Killer Instinct, at least that would make the spell somewhat reliable.
Hand of Mage is his staple power. If you've seen killer use it then you know that for the next 38 seconds ( unless there are addons involved ) this killer can't do anything to you if you are near the pallet. Play around it and you'll see what options does Vecna have when his main power is in CD.
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This doesn't work, if survivors got item to see the orb. You basically get false information and let survivors finish the gen for free.
It'll still push them off the gen for a bit, because the item doesn't immunise them from it. And that's only one survivor that can have this benefit.
It's not that effective for map traversal. It's just more effective to keep it for chase, because cooldown are still high.
Isn't it 40 seconds? If you close out your chase within 40 seconds, you're winning anyway. Why do you care about the cooldown in that case?
But I don't think Vecna is good at neither 1v1, or 1v4. His map traversal is not that much better to any other M1 killer.
He is not good at spreading hits, because of his cooldowns and need to be close to a survivor for his power to do anything. You are not able to get long range hits, or get them fast on multiple survivors.You're not supposed to be good at any of the things you do because he gets ALL of them at the same time. A wide kit is never going to excel in any of its facets, otherwise you'd just get powercreeped.
there's little to add here other than remind you that these 3 supports spells also have long cooldown and often players use them just because they are available
If you can't stop yourself from spamming spells off-cooldown, even in situations where this would not be helpful, then that is as clear an example as you could make of 'it's not the character, it's the player'.
Yes it's nice that you can throw an orb towards a nearby gen but if you do go towards that gen then why use orb there?
That's what I was talking about. Or are you trying to argue that sphere is bad because you can use it in an inefficient way?
Fly is a standard traversal, but you won't use it if there's nothing to defend nearby or you aren't sure if there's a survivor nearby.
Are you trying to argue that Fly is bad map traversal because it's not useful for going to places where you don't want to go?
Flight of the Damned is still horrible but at least you can try to use it from distance and behind the wall and maybe it will hit someone. I personally would give Flight of the Damned Killer Instinct, at least that would make the spell somewhat reliable.
Flight of the Damned is probably his weakest ability, but I can imagine that more skilled players can use it to be properly disruptive in chase.
Hand of Mage is his staple power. If you've seen killer use it then you know that for the next 38 seconds ( unless there are addons involved ) this killer can't do anything to you if you are near the pallet. Play around it and you'll see what options does Vecna have when his main power is in CD.
Then you just play the chase as normal and benefit from the rest of your kit when the time comes to use them. Be tactical about the way you use those abilities.
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And that's only one survivor that can have this benefit.
How so? One item can't spawned multiple times?
It'll still push them off the gen for a bit,
Orb got faster, so not really. I would guess like 6-7 seconds?
Isn't it 40 seconds? If you close out your chase within 40 seconds, you're winning anyway. Why do you care about the cooldown in that case?
That's why I can't use it for map traversal and in chase it usually only works on survivors, who don't expect it and get into dead zone.
Best use is after you injure survivor, but it definitely doesn't guarantee down, not even close. You just skip hold W part.
You're not supposed to be good at any of the things you do because he gets ALL of them at the same time.
That would work if he was at least average at one of those, but he is not even that.
Closest thing I can find to Jack of All Trades is Skull merchant and she at least has one of best stealth mechanics.
Vecna is not even close to being best at any aspect.
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What I'm trying to say here is Vecna depends too much on Hand of Mage. All other spells are there for support but they all can't do much if survivor is in a good spot because they already have a simple yet effective counter.
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How so? One item can't spawned multiple times?
Can it?
Orb got faster, so not really. I would guess like 6-7 seconds?
That's still 6-7 seconds more than most killers would get. And it'd synergise nicely with Dead Man's Switch.
That's why I can't use it for map traversal and in chase it usually only works on survivors, who don't expect it and get into dead zone.
Best use is after you injure survivor, but it definitely doesn't guarantee down, not even close. You just skip hold W part.You're going to have to explain this to me, because…
- You tell me you can't use it outside of chase because of its inhibitive cooldown.
- But you also don't use it in chase because it's not usable in chase. (So why would the cooldown limit out-of-chase usel?)
- But you also can use it in chase because you can skip the hold W part, which is actually a big timesink in chases.
Your argumentation here is a bit all over the place.
That would work if he was at least average at one of those, but he is not even that.
No, because he's got -four- powers.
This is the bruiser conundrum all over again. If you make kits that are this wide, and you have to balance them, the natural consequence is that, the wider the kit gets, the worse every aspect of it has to be. If you have a character that straddles four roles, then each of those roles can only operate at 25%. If they were all average, 50%, then you'd end up with a killer whose kit totals at 200%.
If you take his kit apart and weigh each aspect individually, yeah, he's going to seem weak. But Vecna combines -all of them- into one kit. That whole kit is what you need to look at. Not just his performance in chase, because then you're dismissing part of his kit.
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And it'd synergise nicely with Dead Man's Switch.
That's an interesting idea how to make orb better...
You're going to have to explain this to me, because…
You tell me you can't use it outside of chase because of its inhibitive cooldown.
But you also don't use it in chase because it's not usable in chase. (So why would the cooldown limit out-of-chase usel?)
But you also can use it in chase because you can skip the hold W part, which is actually a big timesink in chases.
My point is you can use it for only one of those in reality, because of cooldown. So I don't think it's true statement that his map traversal is good.
And it's valid for chase, but still limited.
Don't take me wrong, I don't think Fly needs to change in major way, but I also don't think it is strong enough to carry Vecna'd power after Hand nerf.
No, because he's got -four- powers.
I can create 10 powers, but it doesn't matter if only thing those powers do is make me slower and lose bloodlust.
Like really, why orb has any slowdown?
If you take his kit apart and weigh each aspect individually, yeah, he's going to seem weak. But Vecna combines -all of them- into one kit. That whole kit is what you need to look at.
It's overall outcome you need to look at and outcome is not good in my opinion.
He has weak 1v1 and 1v4. That's not a good outcome.
Doesn't matter if he can somewhat do everything, when he is bad at everything.
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He has Two chase power and both of those are mediocre and prone to holding W, he has two support power and both of those are nearly useless and also prone to holding W, overall he is mediocre at best if we look his entire kit
It's not like his powers have any special synergy between them, having all of it means nothing especially when all is so limited with really long cooldown
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My point is you can use it for only one of those in reality, because of cooldown.
But the cooldown is 40 seconds. So the only way these things intersect is if the chase is shorter than 40 seconds. And if you can consistently close chases in under 40 seconds, he's not exactly weak, is he?
I can create 10 powers, but it doesn't matter if only thing those powers do is make me slower and lose bloodlust.
No, it would depend entirely on what the powers do. If every 40 seconds, you could lock all gens for 30 seconds, you wouldn't give a damn about losing movespeed for a second or dropping your bloodlust.
It's overall outcome you need to look at and outcome is not good in my opinion.
But that's decidedly where we need more time to see where he falls. Currently, his kill rate is astronomical, and that'll undoubtedly also have to do with people having to learn to counterplay him, but I would -not- be surprised if he sticks at a high rating.
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No, it would depend entirely on what the powers do. If every 40 seconds, you could lock all gens for 30 seconds, you wouldn't give a damn about losing movespeed for a second or dropping your bloodlust.
So there is no point talking about number, when effects and their impact is what matters. If impact is low, number doesn't mean anything.
But that's decidedly where we need more time to see where he falls
I would agree if there wasn't planned nerf already... Seems like devs don't agree with you.
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So there is no point talking about number, when effects and their impact is what matters. If impact is low, number doesn't mean anything.
Yeah, but none of his powers are dead weights, so they should be considered as a whole kit.
I would agree if there wasn't planned nerf already... Seems like devs don't agree with you.
Well, that might be because the stats don't agree with you. If Nightlight's anything to go by, he's got a 70% killrate, a whole 10 percentage points above the goal. That's pretty extreme.
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Well, that might be because the stats don't agree with you. If Nightlight's anything to go by, he's got a 70% killrate, a whole 10 percentage points above the goal.
Most killers had high kill rate at release, not surprising.
Unknown had 70% on nightlight after release.
I thought you wanted more time to let players figure out how to play as and against the killer, suddenly nerf in first week is fine because of kill rate?
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I'm not saying anything about that, just pointing out a possible reason the devs are aiming to nerf him. And overall, it doesn't look like Vecna's weak at all, and is in fact on the strong side.
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