The second iteration of 2v8 is now LIVE - find out more information here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/480-2v8-developer-update

Debunking Skull Merchant's Common Complaints

jesterkind
jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
edited June 8 in General Discussions

There are a lot of things people like to say about Skull Merchant, and maddeningly, quite a lot of what's said is factually wrong, and even some of the stuff that isn't can be kind of misleading or misrepresented. This post isn't necessarily geared towards convincing you to like Skull Merchant, or even to stop hating her, but rather to try and make it so the discourse surrounding her is at least honest.

Fat chance, I'm aware, but maybe I'll convince some people.

I'm going to list some of the common complaints I see about Skull Merchant, and tackle each one in turn to explain why I think they aren't helpful and should probably be, like, retired. And not used anymore. Please?

1: "She takes no skill" / "She has no skill expression"

We'll start off with a pretty easy one. There are generally two things happening behind this statement, and both of them are things worth addressing. The first is that most people generally tend to not acknowledge the skill expression her kit does have, and that's typically because they don't even know it exists, so we'll start with that.

The Skull Merchant's skill expression comes in a few areas. General drone placement is important, largely for hiding them as traps but also because the nature of how they work means improper placement within a loop can make them useless, depending on what the loop in question is. There's also what some refer to as "lasertagging", which involves timing and aiming your drone placement mid-chase just right so you can instantly tag someone with a stack of Lock On as soon as the drone initialises and the beams come online.

Manually rotating the beams is a skill-expressive element of her kit as well, albeit to a lesser extent. It's also worth mentioning that she's still fundamentally an M1 killer, and you need to know how to do default M1 chases to play her well.

None of this is to convince you that Skull Merchant is cool and awesome and you should enjoy playing her. It's just to remind you that the initial statement - "she has no skill expression" - is factually false. If you mean that you don't find her skill expression compelling, you should say that instead.

The second thing happening behind this complaint is something that we're going to tackle in the next header, but it's ignoring everything a killer is capable of because they have one kind of cheesy strat they can use. This happens with other killers too, and it's just as silly there as it is here - you might as well just talk about the thing you don't like, without trying to act like there's nothing else possible for the killer to do.

2: "All she does is drop a drone at a loop and force you to leave"

I actually debated putting this one on the list, because to be fair, this strategy is annoying. I'm mostly including it because it was relevant to the previous point, but there is one thing to say about it beyond just pointing out it's not all she does.

Mostly, it is worth mentioning that she's the least offensive of the three killers that can do this. Unlike Artist and Knight, this strategy doesn't work at every loop and doesn't require you to run away immediately even on the loops it does work on. Still, it is annoying, so I'm not necessarily defending it.

I've also seen some people say that running away from the loop means you get hit straight away, unlike Knight and Artist, but, uh. I don't see how that could be true, let alone how to argue against it. If she's close enough to hit you like that, she was hitting you either way, idk what that complaint is on about. Maybe I just don't understand the complaint properly?

3: "She's uninteractive" / "She has no counterplay"

These two get to be part of the same header because they're inherently linked. There is actually quite a bit of interaction when it comes to the Skull Merchant's kit, and that comes as a direct consequence of the counterplay that she does, in fact, have. Note again that this is not an attempt to convince you that you should be having fun playing against her.

So, how do you counter Skull Merchant? This isn't an in-depth guide on that particular topic, so I'll try and keep it a little more light, but there are generally two elements to SM's counterplay: In chase, and out of chase.

In chase, the way the drone's beams work is crucial to her counterplay, and the interaction that comes from it comes from positioning yourself so the beams are blocked as much of the time as possible, and crouching/standing still to avoid the beams when you would otherwise be scanned by them. Sometimes you'll see some people saying you can't do that in chase, but you obviously can, people duck and crouch in chase all the time. It really depends on the length of the loop and how far away the killer is, and you'll forgive me if I don't find the concept of a killer's counterplay being nuanced and having a skill curve to be particularly compelling evidence towards that killer being uninteractive.

Briefly, I want to also touch on the idea that sometimes, when you crouch to dodge a beam, you get hit with an M1 instead. Again, briefly: Yeah, that's countering her. Forcing a killer like Bubba to M1 you at windows is part of his counterplay, because taking an injury to deny a better effect from the killer's power is not all that uncommon in this game. It applies to them, it applies to Skull Merchant.

Then we move on to out of chase counterplay, which revolves around knowing which drones to hack and when to hack them. If it's hovering over a generator, you'd ignore it, but if it's in a loop you think might be high traffic in the foreseeable future, you'd go hack it and reap the rewards when a teammate is chased there and SM has to replace the drone instead of benefiting from it. A direct benefit, as a reward for interacting with her power, or… counterplay.

Again, none of this is to say it can't be improved or that you have to enjoy it. I'm debunking a specific complaint here.

4: "Her kit is bloated" / "She has too many status effects"

I'll come out straight and acknowledge something: This is the most subjective thing on the list, but I do feel strongly enough in my reasoning to still make a case against it.

So, the reason I think this particular complaint is really misleading is the fact that it misses a very crucial detail: Her kit doesn't do much else.

The only things her kit does that aren't related to a status effect are the tracking on her radar and the fact that she can push survivors into interacting with a map prop, everything else comes from a status effect. This is different to other killers (especially ones closer to her in how recently they were released), who may get a few status effects, but get some of the value in their kit from more baked-in mechanics as well. Take Wesker, for example: he and Skull Merchant do a comparable amount of things, after all. He and SM both have:

  • A way of speeding themselves up
  • A way of slowing the survivors down
  • A way of injuring survivors
  • A way of applying Deep Wound
  • A way of tracking survivors
  • A map prop survivors interact with as part of the counterplay

The only thing Merchant has basekit that Wesker doesn't is stealth, outside of that they do a similar number of things. The difference is that Wesker's comes from a mix of baked-in mechanics and status effects, and Merchant's is almost exclusively status effects.

Please don't reply to this to say you think Wesker is better designed, that's not the argument being made and you'd just be proving my point. If you're okay with that NUMBER of effects on Wesker, your problem with Merchant can't be the NUMBER of effects she has.

5: "She gets all her status effects just for pushing a button"

No she doesn't. She gets Undetectable for pushing a button, everything else comes from scanning survivors.

This is relevant because two very important things are true about the spread of Skull Merchant's effects. One, they're staggered, they don't all happen at once. Two, survivors being scanned is something that both sides are putting effort and skill into playing around; the killer wants it to happen, the survivor wants to avoid it.

This point mostly just loops back around to the arguments in the counterplay header, but it's a separate complaint so it gets its own header.

6: "She gets passive, unpredictable Haste"

The Skull Merchant's Haste effect is both not passive, and is very predictable. It only happens when someone is shown on her scanner, and it happens for twelve seconds after a single scan. This is information the survivor players do have access to, though I'll grant the duration is only something you'd know if you look it up.

(As an aside, I would very much like to see that duration conveyed to the survivors via their Lock On stack counter turning red while they're shown on the scanner, to address that.)

The only reason this effect would be passive is if someone's tripping drones outside of chase, which is almost always avoidable and the result of skilled placement when it isn't, which would make it not passive in the latter case. Being rewarded for survivor mistakes you can't rely on or force is not a passive effect.

7: "She's still the best at 3-genning" / "3-genning wasn't fixed"

This one doesn't pop up as much because I think most people kind of understand why it isn't true? But for the sake of completionism I might as well address it here as well.

The argument you see in favour of this complaint typically revolves around arguing that Merchant can set up her drones near generators, and survivors will get scanned when she comes to harass them away from that generator, building up towards a Claw Trap. The problem with this is… well, there are a few problems:

  • This isn't actually guaranteed to happen. A survivor running away from a generator MIGHT get scanned on their way out, but they equally might not.
  • This means Skull Merchant has to approach and leave the same generator three separate times before she even gets an injury, let alone a down. During this time, the other two generators are free to be repaired with no risk.
  • Most importantly, other killers can make that initial approach, the time where Skull Merchant has to be content with a single scan, actually immediately threatening. They get objectively more reward for the same patrol pattern.

These things combined reveal that the situation being described is exactly why Merchant's 3-genning isn't still a problem. She is now at best on par with every other killer- which isn't to say that 3-genning isn't still useful, because it is, for every killer. She's just in a position where her power barely adds anything to the tactic anymore, let alone stall games out for fifty minutes like it used to.

8: "She has the best stealth in the game" / "Her stealth has no tell"

This is another slightly more subjective one, but I think one of the things people need to remember here is that her stealth is balanced with a short timer, not a tell. Every time someone lists a group of killers who have Undetectable but a tell, it's always the killers who have permanent stealth until some action is taken, whereas Skull Merchant's is on a timer.

…Also Dredge is on the list sometimes, but its stealth just sucks in general.

I'm not necessarily saying there's no argument to be had about whether or not that's a fair way of balancing stealth, but the fact that nobody is ever making that argument means the actual complaint made belongs on this list.

—As we close out the list here, I'm going to repeat an important caveat: This list is NOT evidence that there are absolutely no problems worth discussing with the Skull Merchant, nor is it meant to convince you that you should love and adore her. Keep hating her all you want, the point of this list is to at least try and make the discourse surrounding this killer more rooted in the actual, observable power she actually has in the actual game, rather than the misconceptions constantly passed around.In fact, as a show of good faith, I'm going to acknowledge a flaw I think this killer does actually have: I think the amount to which her drones can overlap is honestly a big problem, especially on indoor maps. That's a legitimate problem I'd like to see fixed, but to loop back to the point of this list… how often does that come up? Sometimes, but it's not one of the big and most common complaints, right?

We can criticise and provide feedback for a killer while still being honest and fair about them, and that's what I'm trying to achieve here.

Post edited by jesterkind on
«1

Comments

  • n000b51
    n000b51 Member Posts: 762

    Instead all these words, I really wish to watch someone to be chased by her more than 60 seconds to understand all your pro-arguments… Unfortunately, it is not happens often…

  • Coz
    Coz Member Posts: 68

    I own but haven’t used her yet. Reading has inspired me to take the plunge. Thank you :)

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736630#Comment_3736630

    The skill expression being easier than other killers doesn't disprove that skill expression existing. It's still very possible to play her badly and lose as a result.

    And, again, nothing in this post is supposed to change your mind on whether or not you like her. That's irrelevant.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736629#Comment_3736629

    Good luck! She may not end up being for you, but there are a fair few fun elements to her, in my opinion.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736641#Comment_3736641

    How so?

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,885

    The community has for the most part completely rejected her, and even the passage of time hasn't really helped much. I appreciate you trying to be rational here, but you're going up against an entirely irrational feeling. Good luck with that.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736662#Comment_3736662

    Oh, they edited it after I responded, I see.

    Nope. Skull Merchant's skill expression can't be waved away, it's just there and it's not substantially less than a lot of other killers. If you don't find it compelling, that's perfectly fine, but it can't be dismissed for the sake of convenience in argument.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736669#Comment_3736669

    As a quick correction, Wesker DOES have tracking in his basekit. Survivors who use the First Aid Spray give off Killer Instinct for him to follow. It's obviously not used in the same way, because the actual way the powers play isn't relevant to the comparison, but it is part of his basekit.

    The point of comparison is how many separate things their power does, and in that regard, he and Merchant are very similar. There's only one extra thing that Merchant does, basekit, which Wesker doesn't have an analogue for, and I don't think a single effect makes that much of a difference when it comes to a kit being bloated.

    Speaking to the Haste, again, it's not unpredictable. It only happens when someone is scanned, and it happens for a predictable amount of time, not counting addons. You ARE shown when someone gets a stack, so knowing that Haste was just triggered is a thing, but I will repeat that I do think the duration should be shown to you mid-match. I'll also agree this game could do with more in-depth power descriptions without needing to go to a wiki, that would be useful in general.

    Finally, I think you missed the point of the Undetectable thing, so to clarify: I know she doesn't have a tell. I'm saying that the people who say this is bad, and point out that every other killer with Undetectable has an audio tell, always miss that Merchant's Undetectable is balanced with a DIFFERENT downside. All those killers - minus Chucky, to be fair - have stealth that isn't timed, it lasts for as long as they want it to last or until the survivor breaks them out of it. Merchant, by contrast, has her stealth balanced via it only lasting eight seconds.

    I'm not saying there isn't a discussion there, I'm saying the discussion needs to start from the question "is a short timer a potent enough downside to balance her", NOT the statement "she's unbalanced because she doesn't have an audio tell".

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736671#Comment_3736671

    You're putting your thumb on the scale there by specifying MECHANICAL skill expression, though. Sure, she and a few other killers have much less of that - although not none, "lasertagging" is legitimately quite hard - but that's not what they're geared around so it doesn't matter as much.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736684#Comment_3736684

    It's the big mechanical skill expression, but there are other kinds of skill expression. Everything else, from drone placement to macro play juggling to solid fundamentals to maximising stealth, is still skill expression.

    It's not a pedantic difference. Playing Skull Merchant without those elements is going to go poorly for you the second you play against survivors that are actually trying.

    I'm aware I'm also putting my thumb on the scales with that specific caveat, but I think it's also fair to discount games where your opponent just gives up or has no clue what they're doing when evaluating how much skill a killer requires, y'know.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 3,366

    Very solid article, and as someone who is similarly invested in squashing the misinformation and the subjective arguments presented as objective fact around Skull Merchant, I see very solid reasoning in every point made here.

    I have pondered on SM for a long time, and read many suggestions and discussions from people trying to improve her experience, and I do feel there are improvements that can be made to her kit. At this point it'd be near impossible to save her reputation, but she is objectively not far off a decent place, and her being objectively fine would be good enough for me.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736692#Comment_3736692

    Appreciate the kind words!

    There are definitely a few things that could be improved, but I'd argue nothing super transformative. A few small nerfs, some moderate QoL issues, maybe one or two things buffed to offset the nerfs, and she'd be totally fine. The only thing that can save her reputation, if anything, is just time for the fire to die down, but in the meantime a few small adjustments can help those who pay more attention.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 3,366
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736697#Comment_3736697

    Absolutely agree. I feel like @VomitMommy pretty much nailed it myself. My list of changes mostly come from their rework:

    • Nerf: Survivor HUD marked red when a survivor is scanned and on her radar to help survivors track her speed boosts easier.
    • Nerf: Broken removed to encourage attempts from survivors to heal. This creates more macro decision making for SM to switch chase to a scanned survivor while they are still injured. Also allows survivors to decide to deliberately eat a scan to remove their stacks while SM is occupied to try and mend/heal.
    • Nerf: Slow on clawtrap scan reduced to 5% hindered (was 10%) to reduce its obnoxiousness but still cause slow vaults.
    • Buff: Speed standardised. While any survivor is scanned SM gains 3% bonus movement speed. While any survivor is claw trapped SM instead gains 6% movement speed.
    • Nerf: Drones that are disabled cannot be recalled.
    • Buff: Auras of disabled drones marked in red.
    • Buff: Drones recovery reduced to 35s.

    This provides a number of counterplay options to survivors, makes it much more clear what is happening, but largely leaves her lethality intact. Her speed boost from claw traps makes her more deadly to face at loops, but at least is predictable, and the much less harsh hinder effect means there is still an undeniable skill element to Skull Merchant, she can't just unga bunga you down with scans until she gets a free hit.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736714#Comment_3736714

    That's nice?

    This post isn't trying to do anything to change your opinion, I said so like five times. As long as you don't use any of the quoted arguments above to justify your hate, and as long as whatever arguments you do use aren't factually wrong, I don't really have an issue. We're going to disagree, but that's fine.

  • Brokenbones
    Brokenbones Member Posts: 5,170
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736717#Comment_3736717

    If you wanna fix SMs reputation, you should probably try convincing people that playing against her is fun and worth their time instead of trying to 'objectively' prove xyz.

    Most people who complain about her don't really care what argument they use, they just know they hate her. That's what it seems like to me.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736732#Comment_3736732

    I'm not trying to fix her reputation. I'm trying to answer a lot of common misconceptions about her so that, if people do want to keep talking about her negatively, they're at least referring to things that are accurate.

    I know a lot of people who hate her are irrational and won't listen to reason no matter what, but I'd like to have faith that it's not everybody, and I can reach some people at least.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736735#Comment_3736735

    That's not the argument being made, though. The argument being made quite often is that she has no skill expression.

    People do try to walk it back by claiming that TECHNICALLY it exists, but that her kit still plays on autopilot and you don't have to perform or showcase any skill to win, as you're doing here, but that's also not true on top of being a different argument.

    What exactly would you do with Skull Merchant, against survivors that are actually trying, to autopilot a free kill? Throw down drones and zone survivors away from loops? That's basically the only thing she has that skips any skill expression, and it's not as though that's a particularly strong strategy on any of the three killers that can do it. It's a problem because it's dull, not because it's too strong or gives free results.

  • ChaosWam
    ChaosWam Member Posts: 1,843

    This is not a bad breakdown of her.

    Me, personally, I will still argue she doesn't need both haste and hindered at the same time. My reasoning versus your Wesker argument is the hindered is applied if a survivor is max infected, where as skull merchants is just 3 tags from the drones AND she gets the haste at the same time. Wesker can move fast, but in smaller doses, where Skull Merchant's haste is active as long as each survivor is tagged. Which, to be fair, shouldn't be too much if survivors are careful with the drones. I guess between SM and Wesker, Wesker's mechanics feel more fairly implemented, which is important to distinct.

    I also say this as someone who enjoys playing SM myself as a stealth killer.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736739#Comment_3736739

    Well, for starters, talking about things like lasertagging isn't like talking about Billy parkour. It's much more like responding to people saying Artist doesn't have any skill expression by pointing out things like snipes across the map, or using her power for tracking, or actually aiming through walls without zoning people away from loops.

    As in, it's completely true and invalidates the claim that she doesn't have any skill expression, even if the problem of "throw thing down, survivors run away" being boring does still exist.

    You don't get the same value from playing her properly and from zoning survivors away with drones. You get substantially more from playing her properly. Dropping drones at every loop is just a lot easier.

    Finally, I've said multiple times I'm not trying to improve her rep or change people's minds. I just want the discourse about her to be honest and accurate, which I don't think is unreasonable.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736745#Comment_3736745

    Still worth calling out, because she does in fact take skill, doesn't take away survivor skill, and doesn't really give much value out of her cheaper strategies against semi-competent survivors. It being hyperbole doesn't make it less wrong, either literally in terms of what's said, or in terms of what's meant.

    Is it a ton of skill? Eh. It's a low skill floor, but not much lower than the average killer. A low skill floor isn't an inherently bad thing as long as the killer still has skill expression and counterplay, which Merchant does.

    You'll down someone eventually with just bloodlust, there needs to be more than that before old Legion can be invoked. Not to necessarily defend the Artist-Knight-Merchant thing of zoning survivors away, it is kind of boring, but it's not that bad.

  • Zaydin
    Zaydin Member Posts: 275

    A lot of the hate for SM stems from her original kit upon her release rather than her rework which puts more emphasis on chases rather than defending generators.

    People just don't want to change their opinions.

  • JeanGreyarea
    JeanGreyarea Member Posts: 498
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/416778/debunking-skull-merchants-common-complaints

    I think the complaints about her being a 3 gen killer at the moment is weird. I haven’t seen them do it in a long time so I agree there. I still hate her tho

  • Iron_Cutlass
    Iron_Cutlass Member Posts: 3,265
    edited June 8
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/416778/debunking-skull-merchants-common-complaints

    I agree with some of this but also disagree with some of this as well.

    We'll start off with a pretty easy one. There are generally two things
    happening behind this statement, and both of them are things worth
    addressing. The first is that most people generally tend to not
    acknowledge the skill expression her kit does have, and that's typically because they don't even know it exists, so we'll start with that.

    Id just like to say, I kind of agree… but at the same time I disagree.

    Skull Merchant does take at least some skill, the issue is that the skill ceiling is way lower compared to other Killers while also more rewarding. This aspect I do not mind but it leaves this weird area in balance where I feel like other Killers could be buffed to appropriate reward for the skill required to play them.

    This one doesn't pop up as much because I think most people kind of
    understand why it isn't true? But for the sake of completionism I might
    as well address it here as well.

    The argument you see in favour of
    this complaint typically revolves around arguing that Merchant can set
    up her drones near generators, and survivors will get scanned when she
    comes to harass them away from that generator, building up towards a
    Claw Trap. The problem with this is… well, there are a few problems

    Skull Merchant is not as good at holding a 3-gen as before, but she is still undoubtedly strong at holding it since the zones she creates forces Survivors to either: A, sneak around the drones and avoid scans, thus wasting time for the Generators to regress, or B, disable the drones wasting more time. It leaves Survivors in an awkward position where the only counterplay to the drones is to waste more time.

    Knight is definitely in a better position for holding 3-gens than Skull Merchant in my opinion, but outright denying it as if it still isnt an issue is definitely not the play to make in my opinion.

    The only things her kit does that aren't related to a status effect
    are the tracking on her radar and the fact that she can push survivors
    into interacting with a map prop, everything else comes from a
    status effect. This is different to other killers (especially ones
    closer to her in how recently they were released), who may get a few
    status effects, but get some of the value in their kit from more
    baked-in mechanics as well. Take Wesker, for example: he and Skull
    Merchant do a comparable amount of things, after all. He and SM both
    have:

    ~ A way of speeding themselves up

    ~ A way of slowing the survivors down

    ~ A way of injuring survivors

    ~ A way of applying Deep Wound

    ~ A way of tracking survivors

    ~ A map prop survivors interact with as part of the counterplay

    When you ignore nuance than yes, they are the same, but the two are very much different from one another.

    • Wesker's way of "speeding themselves up" does now allow for multi-directional movement, you are given a lot of restrictions for your burst of speed, and a cooldown for using it.
    • Wesker's way of "slowing Survivors down" is through infection, which requires more skill to land due to the restrictions of Wesker's power. Also Wesker's Hindered effect is now at 4% Hindered. Skull Merchant's Hindered is at 10% Hindered.
    • "A way of injuring Survivors" is just an outright pointless point to make, all Killers have this, and yet again, it is ignoring nuance.
    • Wesker's way of "applying Deep Wounds" requires him to slam a Survivor into another Survivor, which is not only difficult but heavily relies on the Survivor messing up horribly. For reference, it took me several months to get the Crash Course achievement since slamming a Survivor into another Survivor is really rare.

    This entire point you made is a bit dumb in my opinion. Anyone can make a similar set of comparisons by ignoring nuance. Here, let me show you:

    "Freddy's power is the same as Trapper's power"

    • They both have ways of injuring Survivors.
    • They both have ways of downing Survivors.
    • They both place a form of trap.
    • Their powers create notifications for the Killer when disabled.
    • Their powers create an audio cue when ran into or disabled.

    Now do you see how dumb it is? Do you see how nuance is ignored here?

    There are a lot of things people like to say about Skull Merchant, and
    maddeningly, quite a lot of what's said is factually wrong, and even
    some of the stuff that isn't can be kind of misleading or
    misrepresented. This post isn't necessarily geared towards convincing
    you to like Skull Merchant, or even to stop hating her, but rather to
    try and make it so the discourse surrounding her is at least honest.

    Listen, I understand it can be frustrating. And while I do have aspects of Skull Merchant that I dont like (e.g. the illusion of choice with her power… also dw, I have this issue with a few other Killers as well), I do think she gets over-hated due to people not really understanding how her power works.

    This being said, I do think there are better ways of addressing it. A lot of points made just feel like "well if X has this, why cant Y have this?" instead of actually addressing what the counterplay or play would be.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736866#Comment_3736866

    To address the Wesker point- it is a response to the argument that Merchant's kit is bloated specifically and cannot be taken out of that context. The point of making that comparison isn't that the two killers work similarly, it's that they do a similar NUMBER of things, but people don't call the other kit bloated.

    I picked Wesker because they happened to share a surprising number of superficial similarities, making the comparison easier. My entire point in bringing it up is that people say Merchant's kit is bloated but typically, if pressed, what they mean is that they don't like how her kit uses its tools.

    This is why I said not to try and argue that Wesker is better designed. The fact that you are making this argument proves that the problem isn't the NUMBER of effects Skull Merchant gets. That's the point being made.

  • Iron_Cutlass
    Iron_Cutlass Member Posts: 3,265
    edited June 8
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736869#Comment_3736869

    To address the Wesker point- it is a response to the argument that
    Merchant's kit is bloated specifically and cannot be taken out of that
    context. The point of making that comparison isn't that the two killers
    work similarly, it's that they do a similar NUMBER of things, but people
    don't call the other kit bloated.

    To answer this as bluntly as possible, part of the reason is because of how much you interact with an aspect of that Killer's power.

    With my "Wesker can apply Deep Wounds" counterpoint, being put in Deep Wounds rarely happens against Wesker, as I mentioned it took me several months to get the Crash Course achievement, and in a public match, I still have yet been put in Deep Wounds against Wesker.

    Meanwhile, you compare this to Skull Merchant, and it feels like at least once every match I am forced to engage in mending from Deep Wounds, and for other (less experienced) players, they are forced to engage with that aspect of her power even more.

    This is why I said not to try and argue that Wesker is better designed.
    The fact that you are making this argument proves that the problem isn't
    the NUMBER of effects Skull Merchant gets. That's the point being made.

    I mean your post also just ignores the fact that Skull Merchant can just do more?

    • Wesker has a 40-meter Terror Radius, Skull Merchant as a 32-meter Terror Radius, which is a massive difference between the two, making it harder for the Wesker to sneak up on Survivors.
    • Skull Merchant can also apply the Broken status effect, which Wesker cannot do basekit.
    • Skull Merchant can also become Undetectable, which Wesker cannot do basekit.

    I just wanted to address that real quick.

    But this is where I do kind of agree with you, it's not a matter of the amount of effects in total but how often people are forced to engage with those effects. In Skull Merchant's case, she gets some buffs and the Survivor gets a lot of debuffs all at once, so you are not only forced to engage with it but the amount is inherently abundant when you are forced to engage with it.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736873#Comment_3736873

    I'm not sure what the point of your overall reply is here, if you agree that it isn't the number of effects?

    Like, I don't mean to be rude, but you're repeating my point back to me. The problem isn't, and can't be, HOW MANY effects she has. The problem must, for the people who say this, be HOW those effects are used. That's the entire argument being made in the section you're responding to, I'm not ignoring anything or removing any nuance. I'm making that argument.

  • Iron_Cutlass
    Iron_Cutlass Member Posts: 3,265
    edited June 8
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736875#Comment_3736875

    My point is that I both agree and disagree; Sorry for my wording, Im just having a hard time trying to explain this.

    It's not solely because the Skull Merchant has a large amount of effects, nor is it the fact that players are forced to engage with some effects; it is the the fact that players are forced to engage with a large amount of effects. To put it as bluntly as possible, it's not solely either aspect, it is both aspects put together that people have an issue with.

    Think about it like this:

    • Take a Killer like Plague for example, you are forced to deal with the Broken status effect and the option between cleansing or not cleansing to provide her power. Being forced to engage with the Broken status effect is not an issue, since it's only a small thing to deal with.
    • Likewise, with what you mentioned, Wesker has a lot in his kit, but players are not forced to engage with aspects of his kit constantly. Im not constantly forced to engage in mending from Deep Wounds, and I am given a lot of agency as to rather I want to engage in certain aspects of his power (e.g. the option to cleanse or forego infection; which after the change from 8% to 4% Hindered, is something you can actively consider now).

    Skull Merchant has both, a power you are forced to engage with AND a lot of effects, not just solely one thing. It's not one moving part, but multiple moving parts coming together to form something that people do not like.

    So, where I agree with you is "it is not how many effects", since on it's own, you are right. But where I disagree is ignoring that it is at least part of the issue.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736884#Comment_3736884

    So, it should be acknowledged: This is still a different argument to the one I was responding to initially, which is the point of my putting it in the list to begin with. When that particular complaint is based on anything that isn't thoughtless surface-level irritation, the problem people actually have isn't the thing they say.

    But, to address that argument too, I alllmmooost agree? I mostly don't agree because, frankly, most of what she does is necessary for how her power functions, and I mean that from the perspective of playing against her, too. She needs the Haste, the Hindered, and the injury at bare minimum in order for dodging drone beams to be something survivors are pushed into doing.

    The only real exception to her power just, being a pretty straightforward "dodge this or you get hit with predictable status effects", would be the Deep Wound, which I think is kind of an annoyance that doesn't need to be there. The stuff you're actually forced to deal with otherwise is just… Undetectable. One status effect you're actually forced to deal with is not a large number. Everything else you're thinking about is the penalty for failing to counter her, not something you're forced to deal with no matter what.

    Which, isn't that how powers are generally supposed to work? You take the action to counter it, and avoid the effects that it has? You don't usually have a choice in whether or not to engage with the effects, you just have the opportunity to avoid them to begin with.

  • Iron_Cutlass
    Iron_Cutlass Member Posts: 3,265
    edited June 8
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736889#Comment_3736889

    This is still a different argument to the one I was responding to initially

    Pardon me for that, Ive kind of been flip flopping around but it's moreso that I just have multiple issues with the post, it's not just one specific thing.

    1. The original comparison between Wesker and Skull Merchant was kind of bad in my opinion, since Skull Merchant just has more going on in terms of bloat, which I felt was originally left out, it was also just ignoring the conditions at which such effects happen.
    2. But also I wanted to address other aspects of your argument, I did this through follow up replies instead of editing the original post to include these arguments. This is my mistake and I apologize for any confusion it might have caused.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,826

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736747#Comment_3736747

    a lot of player discount M1 killer gameplay as "Not skill". Somehow, they liked compare this to repairing generators or something as survivor. M1 killer gameplay is very intricate in dbd. It is why a lot of player that are of the higher rank MMR don't really play M1 killers because of how intricate it is and how fragile making few mistakes makes you lose. At face value, it doesn't take genius to look at complaints and see how weak most of arguments are. it is pointless to address them.

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736735#Comment_3736735

    the power only adds to her kit. The power doesn't do anything if you don't use tools correctly. Most killer powers do the heavy lifting…… when used correctly. Spirit's power grants large boost of speed but what matters is how you use the burst of speed to gain advantage. an incorrect use of burst of speed will not be effective if not used correctly.

  • For_The_People
    For_The_People Member Posts: 571
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/416778/debunking-skull-merchants-common-complaints

    Someday, when SM will gain a cult following and a fonder, more forgiving reputation, you shall be seen and sought out as the sage who told everyone!

    On a serious note, I DID read all of it and I agreed with most things (insomuch as a survivor main who has never played killer can!). Great write up!


    (っ'-' )╮ =͟͟͞͞ 💀✨

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,838
    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737032#Comment_3737032

    Alright, let's crack into these!

    1: So, this one is both not true and kind of irrelevant to the point being made. This post is a series of responses to common complaints, and the common complaint is that she doesn't have any skill expression. Not even that she doesn't need skill to win, that her kit doesn't have skill expression in it to even use if you wanted to.

    I'd maybe buy that as hyperbole if so many people didn't double and triple down on it when pressed, so responding to the actual thing said is fairly important.

    As for her having drastically less skill expression, or the whole "an okay skull merchant play and a great one has too small a difference to appreciate" thing, that's a little subjective, but I'd argue it's definitely not true. An okay Merchant play would be a basic trap or just trying to zone, and a skilled one would be hidden traps, perfect rotations, lasertagging, sniping through tiny gaps in the terrain… you'd immediately be able to tell the difference if you were paying attention and engaging in good faith. She's a killer with a low skill floor, but that isn't inherently a problem as long as her kit has skill expression and counterplay, which hers does.

    2: Not sure what the point of this one is, I already acknowledged that dropping drones at loops is boring.

    3: I laid out some of her counterplay in the post, and you'll notice not all of it revolved around hacking drones.

    4: You're making my point back to me here. Remember again that this is a series of responses. If people want to have a conversation about the implementation of Skull Merchant's power effects, and they're starting from the position of acknowledging that the number isn't the problem, that'd be something- but they don't want to have that conversation. That's not the argument being made. People say her kit has too many effects, so I'm pointing out that it doesn't have more than other powers, comparatively. If they have a problem, and they don't also have that problem with a killer like Wesker, the problem can't be how many effects she has.

    5: She still doesn't get her effects for the push of a button. Even if we're only looking at her dropping drones at a loop to force survivors into running away, and we're ignoring everything else, she still only gets Undetectable because the survivors are running away and denying the rest of them in most cases. If she wants to reliably get use out of all of her status effects, she has to put in a lot more effort than just pressing a button.

    6: We agree on this one, so moving on.

    7: This seems to hinge on her drones being AOEs that prevent traversal entirely, which, they're not. They're small rotating hazards that can be easily avoided when the killer isn't there to force you into moving at inopportune times. Skull Merchant gets less from patrolling a 3-gen than other killers when it comes to how her power interacts with it, that's just a fact.

    8: Finally, we have the stealth. It seems like you're not quite acknowledging the point, which is that you can't JUST say she doesn't have an audio tell and act like that's proof her stealth is broken. This is one of the points that I wish people would have an honest conversation about, because I think there's a lot of room to discuss how fair her stealth is, overall. People don't do that, though, they just say she doesn't have an audio tell and act like that's all that needs to be said.

    There's only one other killer with timed stealth, as you point out - so clearly stealth is typically not timed - and I don't think it's unfair to say he gets those other tells too because he's tiny. You're never gonna see him like you would a full size killer even without LoS blockers in some locations, and he needs LoS blockers to be much smaller than anyone else. Yet more nuance that would go into an actual discussion if anyone were inclined to have one.

    Again, it bears repeating: This post is a series of responses. If you think the complaints being responded to are malformed and unhelpful, welcome to the state of Skull Merchant discourse, that's the thing I'm trying to address here.