Stop defending broken perks.

What's strong is strong

Have you checked winrates, buddy? Because objectively, the stuff you're pointing out? Not broken.

Well part of the thing is just because a perk is used a ton doesn't mean it is OP 100% of the time.

Don't get me wrong, OP perks are abused a ton, like old MFT. But it's not always the case.

WoO for example isn't the problem, the maps are. Sure you could nerf it and you would effect the people who crutch on it. But the actual problem of the map generating 15-20+ pallets that can be chained while being right next to each other leaving no chance for sub top 5 killers to do much will remain. So players who don't need WoO will still be abusing that. If the maps weren't ridiculous WoO wouldn't do much. So the best nerf would be a nerf to maps overall as many (but not all) are just too much.

Pop and Pain res were being used a lot but that's also because they nerfed everything else that was being used before then. If they were fine before and everything else comparable got made weaker they don't suddenly become a problem and too strong just because. Regression is usually needed in some form as otherwise the gens go too fast for most of the killer cast, so unless every single regression perk is basically worthless the best 2-4 will always be massively prevalent. Even if those perks are at an acceptable power level.

It's similar for exhaustion perks. Either all of them are made basically worthless or they will be everywhere. Although that's more because the effect they have will always be useful and not because survivors need them to reasonably have a chance.

Distortion is a case of a perk doing too much imo. Mainly because you basically have it permanently and it can counter up to 4 of the killers aura perks by itself with no effort. Which aren't even really problem perks to begin with outside of the hyper mobile top 4 killers.

I see.

So, my understanding is that you're not arguing for the perks themselves actually being broken, but rather than them being stronger is a problem for perk variety?

In that case, I can sort of get behind it, but there are a few things being missed here. One of the bigger and more unavoidable ones is that there are already plenty of good perks people just refuse to run, so clearly to some degree people will flock to certain options even if they aren't actually much stronger - you can very clearly see that in Windows being the most run perk in the game despite being pretty mid - but there's also the fact that you do have other options than just flat nerfing.

For instance, when you talk about Exhaustion perks being over-represented, I think there are other options. I think BHVR had a really good thing going when they gave Iron Will and original Made For This the "can't be Exhausted" stipulation despite those perks not being Exhaustion perks. More strong perks with that stipulation - some new, some old and just given this quality - would make Exhaustion perks less desirable without actually making them weaker.

You'd be pushed into choosing whether or not to get the speed boost of an Exhaustion perk, or something more versatile from another perk, because those two tools don't work well together. Restrictions can be just as effective as nerfs, with the added benefit of each individual perk still being as good as before.

We're going to state right off the bat that your standards for mid and ours are very different but we're going to put that aside and give an explanation on how we see each of those 12 (6 survivor and 6 killer perks) as not "broken" (and we would now like a definition of "broken" please. For us it's: Something that's extremely overwhelming for normally competent (not new, not competitive) players, extreme effects that are also uncountable, or something that literally breaks the game). If you want to see them they're below 👇. If you want the short sloppy summary, they each have some form of condition, counter, or drawback for their effects.

Survivor

Windows: it gives information on pallets and windows. That's it. It can be countered by blindness and doesn't save people in bad hands. Surprise a survivor, corral them, or burn everything Abit at a time to make the info pointless. Its decent, good, not "broken"

Lithe: Sprint burst after vaulting. It's a once per chase (unless the killer majorly screwed up) thing and does not work while exhausted (which there are various ways to cause) and if they don't have anything to vault and works poorly when vaulting from a high place. As before, good not "broken"

Resilience: Ok bonuses to various attributes while injured. Risk and reward, your now easier to catch if you want to keep using the bonuses. Fair to us and not "broken".

Otr: 80 seconds of conditional endurance and stealth effect. Conditional being the focus as it turns off if they progress the game or (more than likely to happen) get hit. Ohh and it costs a hook state and turns off at endgame. Not "broken" to us.

DS: Conditional get out of grasp free card. As above, they can't progress the game, costs a hook state, and off at endgame. Annoying when people try to weaponize it but not "broken".

Distortion: Token based counter to aura reading and when it goes off you can learn what aura reading the killer has and it hides scratch marks. Does nothing if the killer doesn't use aura reading, making it practically dead in the water in that condition nor does it counter killer instinct. Can run out (admittedly with effort) and rarely does anything in chase. Good, not "broken".

Killer

Deadlock: blocks the gen with the most progress passively when a gen is finished and you know which one. You can't choose which gen, when it goes off, you lost a gen, you can't regress the gen you most likely need to, and another gen could pop anyway. Ok, but not "broken".

Grim Embrace: 12 sec (we think) block after hooking a survivor for the first time, and upon hooking all 4 once get a 40 sec block and some aura reading on the obsession. You need to find each survivor and hook them to get value and only get full value when you don't hook the obsession last for procing. Its annoying to us but we ain't gonna call that "broken".

Surge: upon downing a survivor with a basic hit, explode nearby gens. Does not work with many powers, can chew through available regression events of not careful, and you need to fight the survivors of you want to decide where you want to proc it. Good, not amazing, not "broken".

Pop: Catch and hook a survivor for the limited time ability to kick a chunk off a gens progress. Seems balanced to us as your rewarded for successfully doing your mission and actually need to go and get to the gen you want to regress before it pops. Definitely doesn't fit "broken".

Pain res: Hook a survivor for the first time on a special hook to kick a chunk off the gen with the most progress. As an additional bonus they scream. Like pop your rewarded for doing your job and get bonuses for going out of your way for the other requirements (fresh special hooks). It also only works 4 times and you can't pick the gen meaning you can potentially waste a valuable charge. Same as before, not "broken".

Lethal: Aura reading at the start and an extension on all aura reading. Good for fast killers and aura builds, which is less gen regression. Also does not help in chase without help. Finally, all parts of it are countered if survivors bring distortion (with the exception of that you know if people brought it). Don't think it "broken".

For those who have read through the whole thing, we Rulebreakers thank you for your time and plz never condone advertising.

People defending Windows is crazy. There is a reason why people with 10,000 hours plus still use it. It literally carries and plays the game for you.

We're assuming this is for us yes?

over 220 odd perks exist in this game. About 20 dominate it. They are broken.

So your definition of "broken" is a good perk. That's how we are reading this. If its not the case, your going to have to actually elaborate with words

The people doing streaks are bringing the best things and going on ridiculous streaks and then are only losing to someone bringing the equivalent to the other side you need the best stuff to beat the best stuff even 4 strong players with mediocre stuff struggle that's the point I was making I think you missed it. It flew over your head in an attempt to question how good i am at the game. The general point is it's very easy to beat players of your skill level with good stuff if they don't bring the equivalent. Out perking someone (including bringing items offering ect) is very easy in dbd. Perks are a part of it but im just making that point out here…

They're bringing what they think is best. Which in turn could be countered and rendered moot by something not considered the best by the others. You don't need to bring the best things to beat the best things. Its hard but doable. And when you make comments like:

In a lot of close games I know I would likely win on a better map I lose due to a map offering.

A lot of game I should lose I win due to my perks when pain res keeps me in a game that was spiraling out of control.

Yes. We are going to question your ability since we have no proof other than your words.

Saying "that your opinion" doesn't change reality and you are not even expressing yours you are just inferring what yours is not justifying it dismissing mine then moving on. Say why they are not broken I keep saying why they are that's what this whole thread is ive even given individual reasons up the thread although they may not be in my replies to you. I remember saying why i think the exhaustion perks are broken. I've mentioned how playing with pain res lets me claw back games earlier.

How is it "reality" when "broken" is subjective? Do you and only you decide that? No.

"Say why they are not broken I keep saying why they are that's what this whole thread is ive even given individual reasons up the thread although they may not be in my replies to you."

We did. In that long arsed list. Wana see it again? Maybe the summary if you don't feel like reading it through?

We don't see "broken" from our definition. If going by your definition then sure, they're good perks and must be "broken". But thats by your metric, not ours. Its not reality, its not law, its your opinion and your definition. We're gave reasons why we don't think they're broken, you gave reasons why you think they're broken. Strange how its still not reality that they're broken to everyone.

Sure you mentioned why you think exhaustion perks are busted, we see it (now that we bothered to look in your replies to others where we wouldn't normally look)

And we gotta say we disagree. Does Sprint Burst save you from an ambush? Save your teammate from being chased and killed? What it does is buy a few extra seconds if the killer decides to chase you and can't be run with any other exhaustion perk (and doesn't work while exhausted, of which theres a variety of flavors to inflict it).

Lithe is again "Sprint burst after vaulting. It's a once per chase (unless the killer majorly screwed up) thing and does not work while exhausted (which there are various ways to cause) and if they don't have anything to vault and works poorly when vaulting from a high place. As before, good not "broken"" (This was copied from the list. See how we explained why we don't think its "broken"?)

which disproves this

And NONE of the above shows how any perk (which is what your original topic is about) is "broken". The closest is the pain res helping you but you coulda made a comeback any number of ways as far as we know, especially since you have to earn pain res procs.

You know what, sure. You disproved it in answering another and we missed it. You explained why you think they're broken. So we got a game. Can you disprove our reasons why we think the listed perks are not broken? Can you explain it so we have no other choice but to accept "reality". It has to show "broken" though, not strong. Our definition is in the list but we'll post it here for clairity:

Something that's extremely overwhelming for normally competent (not new, not competitive) players, extreme effects that are also uncountable, or something that literally breaks the game

Wish they'd just remove nurse so we can get rid of the 'but muh nurse' retort already...

High MMR 4-man swiffer, literally the most stacked survivor composition with no room for unskilled play, still doesn't hit 50% winrate.

Survivors are UP. Their tools aren't 'broken'.

They could nerf all survivor perks until This Is Not Happening is the #1 perk and people would still come here calling it broken...

THe day that my teammates stop throwing every pallet on the map before we even have 2 gens done is the day I rally for a Windows nerf

Smash hit has a useful effect, but sprint burst exists.

This kind of illustrates really nicely what most folks' issue with your perspective is, though.

Sprint Burst isn't broken.

Smash HIt is just bad.

Yes, it grants an extra second of sprint, and has a shorter cooldown, but in exchange, there's a lot of killers it won't work against. The requirement of getting that pallet stun is a steep one that makes the perk way too hard to use and too unreliable in comparison to its competition.

If you want to fix that via nerfs, you'd have to nerf SB, Lithe, AND Balanced Landing out of viability.

At which point you're not all that likely to see more Smash Hit, as other perks may overtake exhaustion perks in their entirety, considering the entire class got nuked.

You're drawing a limited number of comparisons, and you're missing the bigger picture.

The problem is many of the strongest Survivor perks shore up design flaws (DS/OTR) and are easily avoided, or are the best of non-stackable alternatives (SB/DH). Deja Vu is the only perk buffed to stop 3-genning until a solution was found, and they added the regression limit, so Deja Vu should have the temporary buff removed now.

The strongest Killer perks are Stackable (PR and Pop, Lethal and BBQ and NtH, GE and Deadlock). The problem there is how they stack (other than aura perks, I think they are fine). Arguably I think we did the wrong nerf to 3 gens. I think we should have looked at total regression, not total events. Capping each gen at 100% regression max would be much better than 8 events total IMO. Gens being blocked needs a counter, even if gated behind a perk like say Repressed Alliance to allow for the removal of gen blocks.