Anti tunnel perks should have exhausted type of effect
Anti tunnel perks for survivors busted and overpowered even if using only 1 of them. But if they combine 4 this perk its actually a guaranteed free escape. After babysitter buff its already became obvious how overpowered anti tunnel perks. Survivor doesnt like when killer combine 4 slowdown perk/ but full anti tunnel survivors build is the same way annoying to deal with on killer side. BHVR make exhausted effect for haste perks and thats a good way cause it would be impossible to deal with. Now its time do the same with anti tunnel perks cause how busted they are.
Comments
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Just don't tunnel
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I just don't get it…. If a survivor only has anti tunnel perks, how do I counter this play style? ofc i hard tunnle, kappa
Survivor doesnt like when killer combine 4 slowdown perk/ but full anti tunnel survivors build is the same way annoying to deal with on killer side.
4 Slowdown perks have no PROPER counters. As survivors you still have to get the 5 generators done somehow.
But as a killer you can probably decide whether you tunnel or not. If you only win games by hard tunneling that's a skill issue right there, I'm sorry.11 -
I know right? How am I supposed to get an easy hook if every unhooked person just zooms around the map at super speed? I only JUST learned how to count to 10 for built in BT update, and now they hit me with this bs? Like come on...
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So whenever you play against SWF, you are supposed to stand AFK for the whole trial? Because you can't win against SWFs without tunneling.
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Incorrect.
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Apply map pressure.
I know this is a foreign concept to a disturbingly large number of people anymore, but if you actually leave the hook and go after survivors doing gens the gens will not only get interrupted, but more than 1 or 2 survivors will be forced to spend their limited actions on chase, rescue, recovery, and being on hook.
If you only tunnel, you're leaving at least 2-3 survivors completely alone to do whatever they want (it's gens).
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Someone never watched comp games and has no idea about the only way a killer can counter a decent SWF.
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Public games =/= comp.
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Thats too general... You perhaps can make an argument for really good players, but not every swf is a comp squad.
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You seem to have problems keeping the words swf and comp players apart... So let me help you...
SWF just means a group of people queuing up together for a match, there can be 2 or 3 or 4 people in such a group, they can but don't have to use communication, for example discord and they can but don't have to play super chill or try to win.
Comp players on the other hand mainly play custom games to improve and scrim against other comp players or do 1v1,they barely play public matches unless they stream and barely go into public matches as a 4 men group.
Normal queue is not comp, there are no restrictions for items, offerings, addons or maps and those two groups of players tend to be seperat, comp players usually don't play in public queue as a 4men squad and swf don't usually play in tournaments.
I hope this helped, I am always glad to help newer players understand the dbd terminology :)
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The whole your argument is "not all SWFs are good", without saying anything about how to counter those SWFs that are actually good without tunneling. So what you are basically saying is that if a killer encounters a 4man with at least somewhat decent coordination and skill level in a public game, where there are no bans for anti-tunnel perks, the killer has no other option but to stand AFK and hope that the next SWF will be chill and won't try to win?
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Other things exist, like playing for fun, or even playing to improve your own gameplay.
Anyone complaining that the other side is sweating doesn't want to play comp. That's the definition of competitive play.
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Nobody is complaining about anyone sweating here, you are missing the point. In comp 100% of killers have to tunnel, since it's the only way to win against a good SWF. And in comp all anti-tunnel perks are banned and there are severe restrictions on what builds survivors are allowed to take, so if they played with public rules without any perk and item restrictions, every comp game would end up with just 0-2 hooks in total.
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What anti tunnel perk do you deem problematic for you to assume that? It fully depends on the level the players are at, the killer that is in play and the other circumstances, usually players the level of Otzdarva, KNightlight, Hens and so on don't have issues with those kind of swf you describe.. Also I don't think every swf at that level only runs anti tunnel perk... What do you even consider anti tunnel if you run 4 of them? Endurance can be neglected by getting an early hit and then going after them, that also somewhat negates ds, because they cannot locker ds you when in deep wound, therefore they will end up on the floor, that in case you still want to tunnel someone despite knowing their entire load out tries to counter you.
Otherwise just hit into the endurance and then chase the guy who unhooked, then you down and hook him, I fail to see where the issue is.
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Glad that 99% of the players here dont play comp and therefore all your yapping is irrelevant for them.
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You still seem to be unable to tell good swf and comp swf apart... That is quite a big deal though...
Also no, not all anti tunnel perks are banned, they are just limited in the amount…
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You're arguing with someone who defends on bullying innocent people, because someone else bullied them. May I suggest you to stop there?
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With that kind of "constructive discussion" you might not even bother saying anything to me, I will just continue to ignore you.
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You never watch a comp game.
Neither they ever play a comp game. (ゝз╹)
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Good SWFs can rush gens in a few minutes unless you tunnel one of them out as soon as possible. This applies for both comp teams and ordinary SWFs with good coordination, since coordinated gen spread is not an exclusively comp level skill.
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Thats fine. The thing is, your "reasoning" just does not apply to public games. 99% of SWFs Killers encounter are some casual groups who have nothing to do with comp.
In all my time playing DBD (which is almost 6 years and over almost 10k hours), I have encountered a Comp Team once in public games (and this was basically in the middle of the night, 3 AM or something like that). So it is hard to believe that players encounter them that often that comp is any relevant for them.
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And of course if you are asked to provide any proof of that, you will just disappear, like you always do. Not to mention this topic is completely irrelevant here.
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You're using comp rules to justify playing public matches.
I started by talking about spreading pressure, which is not only a valid tactic, but it was also the meta for how the game was played before 6.1... with old dead hard, old iron will, old DS. So in the current climate, it's still 100% valid for gameplay, especially since I play to spread pressure and still win a large number of my games.
You seem to be of the opinion that swf is unbeatable, and that's simply not true. Even at the 'top level' a full 4 man swf is only escaping 48% of the time, and losing more than they win. In general, 4-man swf is only escaping 43% of the time.
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thing is solo can be decent coordination team two men swf team with decent coordination can be a nightmara.
I had a game last night where I took 2 survivors out there was 2 others hiding still doing gens(there was 2 gens left)they some how(even tho I hook each of them 1 time) but was able to some how do both gens and get out.
they had to be a 2 men group because I kept going back to two gens I had to kick and I one point 1 of the gens I couldn't kick anymore so they must of been one on each gen calling me out ever time I was coming back to that gen because I could never find them.
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I feel that the concept of map pressure is lost on Killers nowadays. Nowadays it is all about turning the game into a 3v1 as fast as possible. Back in the day Killers did not leave their chase to run after the person who got unhooked. And they actually tried to outplay at Tiles instead of bloodlusting them (even worse with the current event going on where a Killer chases you around a Pallet waiting to be able to remote-break it).
Killers seem to just want the 1v1-aspect of the game as much in their favor as possible to the point that it is impossible for the Survivor to win or even hold up in a 1v1. And the 1v1 of DBD is also important, even if the game is a 4v1, since making the 1v1 miserable will just also tip the balance of the 4v1.
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I provided comp games as an example of how things go at the top level. The highest amount of pressure a killer can apply is to keep 3 survivors busy, not 4, unless they screw up badly. So however good you might be playing as the killer, there will always be the 4th survivor slamming gens, and if the survivors are good, they will rotate you for long enough to finish all 5 gens. That's why if the survivors know what they are doing, hook spreading equalizes to 4 escapes. It doesn't take a comp team to coordinate gens and know how to loop and rotate the killer among the team. The fact that in comp it's 100% tunneling and camping just shows what the game turns into when all the players are at the top of the skill ceiling, just the pure and crystalized skill looks like this, and it tells a lot about the game balance.
And once again, all your argument can be summed up as "not all SWFs are that good", so basically the killer is supposed to just hope the SWF they deal with is indeed "not that good". You still never said anything about what to do if the team is actually good and you can't tunnel, because even comp tier killers can't provide a solution to this problem.
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Absolutely. I miss the days of spreading pressure the most, honestly.
Back when 'kicking gens wasn't worth the time'.
I'm also generally in favor of a run buff, since that only functions if the killer can spread pressure, but I'm afraid that a lot of people have lost that concept over time.
But yeah the 4v1 and 1v1 aspects you mentioned, I completely agree.
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I think Ruin should have not been nerfed in the first place in 6.1.0. The combo of Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer was completely unhealthy, but IMO the main culprit was Tinkerer and since this also got nerfed in 6.1.0, there was no reason to nerf Ruin as well.
(But it was mostly done to "shake up the meta"…)
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It's not that 'not all swf are that good' it's that there's a reality that no one is perfect and everyone is defeatable.
I don't give one single crap about comp DbD. Partly because there are limitations on both sides, but mostly because it's the most boring gameplay I've ever seen. I want fun games, as do most people who play them in their free time.
The people who play games in their free time to win shouldn't be surprised when they start getting opponents who also want to win.
But even at the top, max level, survivor teams still lose. Comp tournaments defeat them, and you can watch hens, team eternal, or other really good teams play public and they're not going to win every game either, even with no restrictions.
The max win steak for 4 man is, I believe about 240 in a row or so. And that was a comp team specifically going as far as they could to set the record. For reference, that's on par with the trapper win steak, and blight broke 2000. So even in public, no holds barred matches, killers are more unstoppable at the top end than survivors are.
More to the point, people who tend to think they're 'high MMR' aren't. They're just going against people with more skill than they are. It doesn't take a lot for some people to hit their peak and blame anything and everything on something else.
You seem to be obsessed with winning, and also seen to be obsessed with the idea that a 4 man swf is completely unstoppable. So maybe you should join the discord and get a 4 man group going. You'll see very quickly how that plays out.
But since that would require you to both play as survivor, and challenge your core belief that SWF is the devil, that will likely never happen.
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But if you hard tunnel one person then 3 other guys are doing generators, you are intensifying the issue by not spreading pressure... The best thing to do is to chase 2 people while switching between them... Let me explain.
You hook Survivor A, then you go for Survivor B, meanwhile A gets unhooked and healed, therefore two other survivors are busy. You now hook survivor B and go back for survivor A and so on until both are dead and then you basically won the game, this way you don't get affected by anti tunnel perks in the best case and you spread pressure.
If you hard tunnel one person and ignore the unhooker then you will just have 3 people on generators the entire time while you eat DS and OTR like it is a Burger... You also miss the opportunity to go for the weak link. The reason why they tunnel in comp is because anti tunnel perks are limited there, they cannot happen twice, that is however a thing in normal matches, which is why it is not comparable to our situation...
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That comparison is not really fair... The 240 win streak was done by Hens and his friends while having severe perk restriction and only half of them being comp players... Comparing that to the killer slaughtering survivors while not encountering a single comp squad just shows how bad matchmaking is... Take for example KNightlight Nurse streak... He does no perks and no addons and when he started it he explicitly said "OK boys, this streak will only ever get broken if I get a 4 men comp team bringing strong stuff..." he is at 500 wins now and has not encountered a single 4 men comp squad... The issue is matchmaking... If he cannot get a single game out of those 500 with opponents of similar skill then we know the matchmaking is to blame for such enormous win streaks...
Do the same for Hens escape streak and check how comp killers they got...
I don't think it is fair to compare those two things because of those before mentioned reasons...
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But since that would require you to both play as survivor, and challenge
your core belief that SWF is the devil, that will likely never happen.Ah, finally, that "you are just a killer main" gotcha. Sure, but everyone here already knows that I play both roles, and I used to play survivor much more than killer, mainly because killer queues are usually longer. Later, though, indeed I try to play killer more, but only because soloQ survivor is as completely hopeless experience. But anyway, telling me I am wrong because I'm a "killer main", even though I'm clearly not, is not a constructive argument. Moreover, I can use the same ad hominem against you and just say "you are just a SWF-main" and be done with it.
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True words and unfortunately that's how it is these days.
Anything except 3k or 4k counts as loose for killers today. And if you don't consistently achieve these results one after the other, then the complain starts. Every time if a new killer comes out and the player doesn't get 3 or 4k regularly after the first 10 matches, there will be a clamor for buffs, i enjoy it every release, its more consistent than an atomic clock.I provided comp games as an example of how things go at the top level. The highest amount of pressure a killer can apply is to keep 3 survivors busy, not 4, unless they screw up badly.
The fact that comp, with all the restrictions and rules, is seriously compared to public matches shows me that there is a fundamental lack of game knowledge here.
The max win steak for 4 man is, I believe about 240 in a row or so. And that was a comp team specifically going as far as they could to set the record. For reference, that's on par with the trapper win steak, and blight broke 2000. So even in public, no holds barred matches, killers are more unstoppable at the top end than survivors are.
If a Blight can do a 2000 streak then you have to ask yourself how good the balancing is in the game and of course BHVR will then set consequences (Blight nerf, anti tunnel perk buff, etc.) Thank God and that's a good thing.
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Practice tells that if you hard tunnel one person while losing 3 gens, it's generally worth it, because playing 1v3 at 2 gens is much easier that playing 1v4 at basically any number of gens. If you are decent and play as a mobile killer, you will be able to finish the survivor while eating all their OTR's and DS's, that's why tunneling still worked well even with all those perks. The new Babysitter, on the other hand, gives the survivor an unconditional speedhack for half a minute, which you won't be able to swallow anymore. Now the whole paradigm is falling apart, and the only reliable counter against decent SWFs stops working.
You don't have to tell me how the pressure works. I know it well, the highest pressure a killer can achieve is 3 people busy not doing gens. It goes like this: you hook a survivor, chase another one, and a third one is going for unhook and heal. So, 3 people not doing gens. That's how you play once one survivor is out of the game. If the 4th survivor is still alive, they will be pushing gens while you are juggling survivors. And if they are good, they will do it for long enough to finish the gens.
Your example with targeting 2 survivor usually works well, but only against SWFs who are not coordinated enough to counter that. If they are good, once one of their teammate is on the death hook, you will not be seeing that survivor until the end of the trial. They will force you to rotate them, basically spreading hooks, so that the total rotation of 8 hooks gives them more than enough time to finish all the gens. And hiding one dead on hook teammate when you are rotating hooks even just between 2 survivors is much easier than if you are focusing one player, because the dead on hook survivor will not go for unhook and for aggro attraction, you will lose them and probably never find them again until they tbag you at the gates.
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If you play a high mobility killer that speed does not really matter, you will catch up anyway and hit them... So while that is an issue for weaker killers it does not go much against for example Blight.
That only works if you do get the weak link of the team, because if you don't then you are in for a rough ride...
That is not really true is it... You still need to take into account potential regression perks, sure there will some progress, but a. It will be much slower compared to when you hard tunnel and b. It will still not be fast enough to win the game.
So you are telling me that hard tunneling one guy works, but finding the death hook guy is absolutely impossible? Despite the guy getting hard tunneled not showing aura or grunts of pain because he runs every anti tunnel perk in the book, in this case OTR? You cannot have it both ways... If this survivor just hides in a corner he is not doing anything, and if he is doing gens you will catch him...this is such a non issue.
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I agree that in comp that 100% of killers have to tunnel. At the top levels of this game, it's heavily survivor-sided and forcing the 3v1 as early as possible/chewing through the least number of health states to get to it is the only way to play.
But the problem is that almost all matches - including SWF matches - are not at the top level of the game. And tunneling defenders, for all that they cite comp matches and stacked SWF, rarely care about the actual skill level of the survivors, or the speed at which gens are moving, when they tunnel. They just do it as a dominant strategy and claim their 4ks at 5 gens aren't overkill because the survivors might have been good.
Because yes, I've also seen your many posts that solo is miserable (I wonder why), and also the posts about how survivors deserve to be tunneled and slugged with extreme prejudice because they might tbag you if you don't kill them all ASAP. Personally I think it is possible these two things may be related.
Anyway, OP is ridiculous. Anti-tunnel perks are some of the best and healthiest kinds of perks to verse because they don't require perks or communication as counterplay - you can dynamically change your strategy on the fly once you recognize the perks are in play. And in comp, where this actually matters as opposed to moving the EZ win button slightly further out of reach, those perks will be limited anyway.
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I think people kind of forget that Comp DBD has it's own rulesets and is fundamentally different compared to public matches.
Comp DBD is cool, down get me wrong, Im just tired of people bringing it up as if it influences Public Matches when the game that they are playing is vastly different compared to normal DBD.
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The game should never be balanced around SWF
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It's pretty much a bogeyman, if not an excuse. "I'm losing games" means "survivors are comp", not "I could have improved my gameplay" or "I'm not going to win every game against opponents at my skill level."
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They need to remove collision from a survivor while it has endurance / OTR. That's the a change i think its needed so people don't weaponize anti-tunnel perks.
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Lul SWF is prob 1 in 10 matches unless u are a killer tha5 can't affordcto loose a game with their MMR boosted so high all their games feel like swf
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I do think it should, but only under the circumstances where solo and swf have the exact same information... If you have the same tools on all players that makes it far easier to balance.
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They should have done that long ago... But honestly these days it is kind of funny, people take the otr hit and then try to get locker grabbed, but because ds is bugged they go down a few seconds later, kind of deserved.
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Well technically it is 50 50 between swf and soloQ. Just not 4 men swf, but swf in general.
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No you don’t, not everyone plays like its their job when playing with their friends believe me I would know, most of the swfs I encounter and the ones I play with my friends tend to play in funny ways or tend to be annoying but you are not very likely to just get people whos end goal is to blitz through gens and distract the killer the entire game and call it a day
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Better idea is the perks disable if they're healthy. The problem is not they body block with endurance, its they body block being healthy and with endurance.
For now, if survivors body block with OTR, just tunnel them because they ask for it. Lucky that body block with healthy + endurance are rare.
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If anything anti-tunnel perks are too weak and just delay inevitable if killer really wants someone out.
Free escape? They definetely are not but instead allow survivor to have chance. Sounds to me you are getting just outplayed.
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Not really, they can still ds you then, but they cannot bodyblock at all if their anti tunnel perk is still up, which is Allright.
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It's not good idea sometimes you can heal hooked guy before killer start to tunnel them so no need to make tunneling any easier. Removing collision is best idea to end tunneling and remove weaponizing anti-tunnel perks.
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I recomend you to do that then when seeing high prestige survivors... I won today 5 in a row in soloQ with them and most games killers had couple hooks.
Meanwhile I played swf and we died every game and not any killer tunneled and even they played for 8 hooks. Competent teammates in soloQ are much better than average swf.
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