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Dungeons and Dragons Survivor perks just aren't that good
Since it's been a little while since the D&D chapter dropped, I'd like to make a post talking about the chapter's perks. While the Killer perks are actually decent this time around, all having some use, the Survivor perks leave a lot to be desired in some cases.
I'm going to highlight what I think is wrong with the perks, and how they can be improved.
Bardic Inspiration
This perk is pretty cool, with the whole Lute thing. However, it has a pretty glaring issue. Low rolls just aren't worth it at all, you lose more time than you gain in pretty much every case.
This is fine by itself, the perk is meant to have RNG as a main mechanic. What some people do is they cancel the performance if they get a low roll, preventing them from wasting time.
The problem with this is, currently, the perk has a 90 second cooldown, which is very long. I propose making the cooldown 60 seconds again, but keeping the buff duration at 90 seconds. This will allow the perk holder to cancel low rolls more effectively, or refresh the buff before it expires.
It also means more opportunities to play the Lute, which is a bonus in itself.
Still Sight
This perk takes an eternity to activate. It's so clunky to use, and the value you get from it isn't the best, especially without Open-Handed.
I suggest making the activation time somewhere around 2.5-3 seconds. This will make it easier to use while still keeping the in-chase usage potential limited.
(side note: remember when people said this perk was going to be overpowered, wasn't that funny?)
Mirrored Illusion
Now this perk was actually pretty decent when it released. The problem was, they patched a bug that allowed you to recharge and place illusions while another illusion was active. Now, the perk will get 2 uses per game at most, since you have to wait two whole minutes after you drop an Illusion and THEN complete another 50% of a generator, which is kind of ridiculous.
Similar perks such as Blast Mine, Wiretap and Chemical Trap can have their durations cancelled early, since they are destroyable. While the Illusions are also technically destroyable, the timer keeps going down after they are hit by the killer, meaning you are guaranteed to get the full two minutes every single time.
I'd make it so that charging and placing the Illusion are independent. You gain stacks for every 50% of a Generator completed, and then you can place them whenever you want, without cooldown as long as you have stacks remaining. You would still be able to build stacks when you have an Illusion active.
The Illusions themselves would still last for two minutes, or until destroyed, as usual.
Those are my thoughts on the D&D Survivor perks, and I hope to see them buffed in the near future, because they're all neat ideas.
Comments
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- yeah, I remember when people said Still Sight was OP. the same people who ignore the existence of key + blood amber🤣
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People were likening it to Old Object, which was kind of crazy in retrospect.
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I mean this isn't new, most DLCs have bad perks for one side or both.
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I know it's not new. I'm just giving my feedback on the perks themselves in hopes that they might get buffed.
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Fair, though at this point there's like 60+ perks that need serious buffs and they'll only pick a couple to slightly tweak every six months, then introduce more bad ones every chapter.
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At least they've confirmed a big series of perk buffs coming some time this autumn. I'm looking forward to that.
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It‘s so sad that this is 100% true. They introduce too many trash perks and nerf too many good perks.
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Well, Laura’s perks seem a little better (still mostly situational and on the mediocre end). Maybe that’s something. I dunno why people complain about survivor perks anymore, though. Survivor perks are usually trash for a very clear reason: The main draw of survivors are cosmetics (not perks). It doesn’t matter how awful a survivor’s perks are (I.e. Sable) because people will overlook that & buy cosmetics. Why would BHVR change a formula that works?
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Finesse is good at least.
I'm still going to give my feedback on what perks are bad, and how I think they should be better. I'm not sure what point you're making with BHVR deliberately making perks trash, since Sable actually came with a really decent set of perks. The worst being the Invocation, but that's at least ok-ish now it's been buffed.
It's not specifically a Survivor thing either, there are more bad perks than good for both sides. Vecna was an exception in this case where all 3 of his perks have viable use cases.
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Is it that true? What was the last outright trash perk we even got outside of the DnD chapter, Weaving Spiders? And that's just release WS, since it's kind of okay now.
Release Scavenger, maybe? That was a little while ago, at this point. Some perks are kinda underwhelming, but it's been a while since we got an outright trash one.
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Sable released with basement self care and basement deliverance, two perks that aren’t exactly META or common in most regions anyway (I know SC is big in Asia). Situational, which in this game equals bad (at least for survivors). The invocation sucked as well… especially when compared to what the killer received.
Anyway I offered insight as to why survivors continuously release with subpar perks: perks aren’t really the bread and butter of survivors the way they are for killers; cosmetics are. That’s my point.
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Strength in Shadows is significantly better than Self-Care. The reason that Self-Care is bad is because it's extremely slow, whereas SiS is quite speedy on its own and outright faster than someone else healing you if paired with Botany, an already strong perk on its own. It's not situational and it's not even niche, it's just a dependable and strong perk.
Wicked, for the record, has a second effect, not just the basement Deliverance. It also gives you a whopping 20 seconds of killer aura reading after both unhooks, regardless of whether you were in the basement or not.
Those perks are good. They're not bad, subpar, trash, or underwhelming.
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honestly do people actually use bardic for real gameplay uses? I mostly just see people use it as a joke
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Honestly, there's been a good number of terrible perks recently. I'd say Lara came with one, since Hardened requires you to waste a good 30+ seconds looking for and doing side objectives in order to get a slightly better Calm Spirit.
Still Sight, Deadline, Boon: Illumination, Scavenger, Lucky Star and basically every single Tools of Torment Perk aside from Background Player make the list imo.
Most of those are either far too roundabout to get much use from, or outclassed to a major degree.
Where the line between terrible and underwhelming lies is generally subjective, but these perks will basically never end up in a serious build for me.
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Tools of Torment definitely had some truly terrible perks, but that was over a year ago now, I wouldn't call that "recent" when it comes to chapter releases.
Scavenger on your list otherwise would be my pick for the last truly terrible perk. Still Sight + Deadline + Illumination are all just a little undertuned, and Lucky Star is better than people think it is. The actual overall average quality of survivor perks recently has been pretty alright, the worst perks tend to just be slightly undertuned and could easily be buffed a little to be more appealing while still being usable as they are.
Also, I realise I never commented on the actual overall point of the thread, so to do that quickly: These buffs seem reasonable, and I broadly agree with the rundown of the perk issues. I'd only really add, I'm pretty sure that Mirrored Illusion's mirages are completely static, and they'd be more interesting if they pantomimed the action they're supposedly performing.
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Maybe I should call it bad perks that nobody will ever use (aka trash perks). The perks I don‘t talk about are just bad.
Singularity: Forced hesitation is good for slugging.
Soma: All not good.
Ripley: Chemical trap/Light footed both mediocre and not really good.
Alien: The perk with a bit of use is rapid brutality.
Nick cage: All meme perks, which is fine. Plot twist is good.
Chucky: Hex two can play is bad, but could be fun with a longer duration. Friends till the end is the best perk we got last year. It‘s still not really strong.
Sable: Strength in shadows is bad, but okey.
Unknown: Unforeseen is good.
Vecna survivor: Nothing good.
Vecna: Languid touch and weave attunement are good.
Lara: Fineese is okay, but still too restricted.
Overall killers got some good perks while survivors got majorly bad perks. Some of them would be easy to buff tho.
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tbh
I don't think there's been any new perk for the last few chapters that have ever been a staple in any of my builds
bardic is the only recent one I can think of that I was like yeah it works in my gen build
we have too many niche perks, outright useless perks, perks w/ XYZ activation, etc
what can you do tho, constant cycle of new chapters, at some point the good ideas will be less and less
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Hmm, well, we sort of need to ask if we're talking about the release version of these perks, or the current versions… I'll go for release versions, and we'll go character by character here.
Singularity: So, Machine Learning released kinda bad. I think it's a bit more worth it now? But still clunky and awkward to use. Forced Hesitation has some use as you mention, and Genetic Limits is a good perk but it's unappealing because you get zero feedback when it's working. Overall, Singularity's perks weren't terrible strength wise, but not very appealing for other reasons.
Gabriel: This is where I question whether we are talking about release versions, because Gabriel released with Made For This. That was obviously a good perk, lol. Aside from that one, Scavenger is terrible by necessity because toolboxes are broken + it's PTB version was broken for the same reason, and Troubleshooter is a very solid solo queue perk. Overall, good offering, one bad but two good.
Alan Wake: I have no idea why people act like Champion of Light isn't good, but it is, that's just a good perk. The other two are underwhelming but still have niche uses so I'd call them mediocre, not terrible. Overall, average offerings.
Ripley: All her perks are at least "decent". Lucky Star is a fairly reasonable info perk (+ with a bad stealth element, admittedly), Chemical Trap is a little bit RNG since you need the right pallet but is good on those pallets, and Light-Footed is very strong since denying the killer tracking is almost always good and specifically footsteps are a strong thing to remove. Good offerings overall.
Xenomorph: Now, I'm of the opinion that Ultimate Weapon was massively overrated, but it wasn't terrible either, it was just only decent on a handful of killers. Alien Instinct is a solid info perk, and Rapid Brutality is niche but strong within that niche. Good offerings overall.
Nic Cage: No arguments there. They're all meme perks, but they're fun ones and they all have some reasonable strength too. Weaker than some other options, but good additions anyway.
Chucky: Two Can Play is bad but both Friends Til The End and Batteries Included are solid perks. BI is a bit more niche since you generally want to build around it, but in that niche it's pretty good. Decent offerings overall.
Sable: While Weaving Spiders released pretty bad + is only "okay" now, both of Sable's other perks are very dependable and solid. Strength in Shadows is a very reliable self healing perk, and Wicked provides a crazy amount of killer info after you're unhooked which is very useful for avoiding any incidental/opportunistic tunnelling + for knowing if you have the freedom to let your teammate heal you under the hook or not. Great offerings overall, even factoring in that Weaving Spiders is not great.
Unknown: These perks were pretty bad. Unforeseen is okay and niche, but the other two were pretty mediocre, I have a hard time justifying running them. Not great offerings overall.
The Bards: As this thread points out and I agree with, all of these perks need buffs. They have pretty good designs, though, so at least they only need buffs and not reworks. Bad offerings overall. Bonus points for the meme potential of Bardic Inspiration, though.
Vecna: All Vecna's perks have good use cases. Weave Attunement is nasty, Languid Touch is a very dependable anti-Exhaustion perk, and while Dark Arrogance is the weakest of the three, its downside isn't quite as bad as people made it out to be and it stacks well with others. Good offerings overall.
Lara: All of her perks are good and have strong effects, but require a little work. Finesse is very strong but requires solid play to keep up, and the other two provide respectable value. Good offerings overall, with an asterisk.
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Overall, perk design has been pretty good, with only a few outliers. I think the impulse to downplay recent perks - especially survivor perks - comes from a combination of not getting very many broadly-applicable passive perks, and from the fact that some perks have analogues that already exist and people think any perk that's just outclassed is necessarily also bad in its own right, which I don't think is fair. For an example there, Lucky Star is outclassed by any of the perks that are dedicated to showing one of the specific things that perk reveals, but the fact that LS only takes up one perk slot to show you a little of multiple things makes it a perfectly "okay" perk at worst.
To the wider point of the thread, too, it's worth talking about specific bad perks and how we'd buff them, and the idea that recent perks have all/mostly been terrible is kind of irrelevant even if it weren't also completely untrue. It helps to have a clarity of purpose in a discussion like this, and there's nothing wrong with only focusing on specific perks to suggest fixes.
EDIT: forgot Alan Wake, added him in where I think he is chronologically lol
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I do. Granted, I only tend to be able to use it once per match for its intended purpose. I also find it's a good way to let your teammates know where you are if you need healing.
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I would argue that Bardic Inspiration is dangerous if uncontested since it has insane synergy with other gen perks. It's a fun perk that CAN be good but a solid A-tier perk for me.
I agree with the other two needing some changes though.
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A Medkit is significantly better than SC. The bar is low. At least with SC one can heal anywhere on the map.
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Let me use Bardic inspiration even on cooldown for no effect other than animation...
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I get that, I'm responding to your comparison specifically, though.
You can heal anywhere on the map… extremely slowly. With SiS, if you just run to the basement, you can heal very quickly. It's significantly better and legitimately quite strong, I run it myself all the time.
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Your and my definition of good are two different worlds, but since most of the newer perks aren‘t played, it‘s safe to say that the majority of perks were just bad and that there were a few okey/good ones, but no great ones.
Edit: I was talking in my post above about current versions of perks, that means MFT and UW are in no way good.
Other question: Do you agree with me that they made more perks bad by nerfing them instead of making more perks useful in the last year?
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Tying a perk's strength to whether or not people run it is not a very wise tactic, in my opinion. People run mediocre perks like Windows and actively bad perks like Self-Care all the time, and some very strong perks don't get much play. What it would be safe to say is that most new perks haven't been appealing enough to break into the meta, but that's a very different statement to saying that they're actually bad. Some of them have been very strong, even.
To that last question, no. I don't think many perks were made all that bad by their nerfs, and they HAVE been buffing perks to be more appealing at the same time. They've been both nerfing and buffing, and most of the post-nerf perks are still perfectly okay. Not all of them, mind, but most of them to my recollection.
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I don't think this change would make it dangerous. The progression it provides will remain mainly the same, it'll just have a tad more consistency.
Cancelling the performance would still incur a 60 second cooldown, so there's that too.
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But even when they are strong like you say, they aren‘t appealing nor interesting/fun/useful so that people would want to play them. Most of the newer perks are too extremely niche and have stupid conditions for what they do.
The only good perk change was grim embrace and coup de grace in the last year. Adre got nuked, STBFL got made useless for any not m1 character, MFT is useless and far too difficult to activate (they could have just reduced the haste to 2% and it would have been fine), UW bad, Hangman‘s trick was okey before not even strong and they nerfed it, Buckle up got nuked whether or not justified, wiretap got worse (I used it before, but since it takes 50%, it‘s just not worth it), Prove thyslef unnecessary nerf, POPGW, COH bad (they should have reduced the self healing speed and make shattered hope basekit) and COB/Overcharge both overnerfed like most of the other perks. One that was a buff, but was a nerf in my build is Autodidact and emphatic connection. It was so much better before. They reduced perk variety by a huge junk.
Shure they buffed perks, but in such a minimal way that they can‘t really be better and that it doesn‘t really matter, while making liked perks bad.
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Well, the question you kind of have to ask is why they aren't appealing. For some perks, it's obvious: Genetic Limits, for example, may be a good and strong perk, but you get zero feedback for when it's working and that makes it very unappealing. For other perks, it's a lot less obvious- for example, Champion of Light. By all accounts, that perk should be appealing - it's strong, it affects chases which are the most appealing part of survivor gameplay for a lot of players, and it buffs an item that people already bring for fun.
Yet, a lot of people will argue very aggressively that it's not even good to begin with, and that's a little bit confusing given the reality of the situation.
That's not even considering perks where it's also obvious why they're not appealing, but not because the perk has anything wrong with it. Light-Footed is a very strong perk, but a lot of players just don't value audio stealth and don't understand just how strong it is, on top of it being a passive perk that doesn't give obviously flashy results. There's nothing wrong with Light-Footed and it definitely doesn't need to be buffed, but it's still not appealing enough to break into the meta, and to a degree that's okay. Not every perk needs to be in the top ten most picked perks in order to be considered good.
When it comes to perk nerfs, most of them were basically fine. Grim Embrace/Deadlock/Pain Res are all still basically the same, frankly, though Pop did take a hefty hit. Adrenaline is still one of the strongest perks in the game, Buckle Up is still useful but in a healthy way, Decisive Strike is still fine. STBFL got hit with a really messy nerf and MFT is very niche now, but even those perks are still perfectly usable in the right context. Circle of Healing is still an exceptional perk, its use case just changed. Most of these nerfs are both appropriate since the perk in question was strong/unhealthy enough to warrant it, and measured enough to not ruin the perks. Sure, we got a couple unnecessary and poorly done ones like Prove Thyself and arguably Pop, but those are very firmly the minority of changes.
Then we get to perk buffs, and things have improved quite a lot over the past few patches. This patch alone gave sizable buffs to:
- Darkness Revealed
- Machine Learning
- Trail of Torment
- I'm All Ears
- Oppression
- Dragon's Grip
- Autodidact
- Iron Will
- Empathetic Connection
- Resurgence
- Solidarity
- Babysitter
Even being extremely restrictive and discounting buffs like Darkness Revealed and Dragon's Grip, where the perks are definitely better but still need some improvements, that's still a huge list of perks being bumped up into viability. Then we factor in buffs like Furtive Chase, Coup de Grace, Cruel Limits, Saboteur, Smash Hit… hell, we got Deja Vu in year seven. If we go back a little bit further, we also get the exceptional buffs to Gearhead and Overzealous. Some of those other listed buffs might not be huge, but they're noticeable.
The fact of the matter is, if you're concerned more with viability without factoring in popularity, perk variety has been going up far faster than it's been going down over the past year and a bit. It's why threads like this are worthwhile, because BHVR do make good changes to underperforming perks. There's good reason to think pointing out the whys of a certain perk or list of perks being not very good would result in some meaningful changes, at least eventually.
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