The Nemesis changes??
Can we talk about why it's suddenly necessary to mindlessly buff tentacle strike like this without testing it on the PTB?
The new cool down for all hits, regardless of it being infection or damage, combined with the new hinder duration, is going to make Nemesis feel very oppressive in chase. Ironically, he will still be a bad killer because this doesn't address his lack of mobility and map presence, thanks to nothing being looked at with zombies.
And a range buff to tier 3? You guys have just made it legally required that every Nemesis runs Marvin's blood and Licker tongue. Running anything else is now throwing the game. The zombies are AWFUL.
From a die hard Nemesis main, can we please take his buffs in a different direction? It's going to feel like skull merchant to play and face this killer. Adjust his addons, make zombies more consistent with base kit ways to counter them, maybe give him mobility or real ranged attacks (the rocket launcher.)
We finally have Nemesis being looked at, but now he's just going to be forgotten about when his kill rates increase.
Comments
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Yeah I still think out of all things he needed, more range in T3 was not the play. The difference in range between t1/2 to t3 is literally game changing and adding more range to t3 wont do much.
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i think range change does nothing because survivor can crouch his tentacle strike. the cooldown change is really nice. still sad that linker tongue doesn't work on normal hits but oh well.
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I'm definitely not gonna say no to more Nemesis buffs. How crazy is it gonna get? I dunno but I'd say let Licker Tongue have it's moment in the sun, the lil' guy deserves a bit of love. Besides I got 200 of the things, so it'll give me something different to use for a change.
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FYI dodging isn’t a consistent way to avoid the tentacle strike. While I’m not certain on all of the factors that affect it, you can still be hit over pallets, through windows, and while somewhat close to the Nemesis while crouched with the tentacle strike. Just wanted to correct that for anyone reading your comment.
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Stop acting like 0,5 meter range increase and 0,25s cooldown decrease will break him into S tier killer without testing.
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the range change means he would need to spend one less second to get within hit range. thats 4 less meters survivor can run.
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The zombies need better ai The zombies need better ai THE ZOMBIES NEED BETTER AI.
For god's sake they endlessly explore empty corners of the map, they get stuck on tile seams. Why are these things still an issue so many years later?
I'm not going to say no to a tentacle buff but that's never been what I've thought Nemmie needed, he needs halfway useful zombies. They're his map-wide pressure and they do fudge all most games.
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it wont, but stuff like that should be tested.
nemi just randomly got effectively 2.5 STBFL stacks and 1 second less to catch up to people.
all these buffs combined make nemi catch up and down people even faster.
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Ah yeah, this version of dbd, where everyone runs in straight line 100 meters on open field, without any objects on the map and survivors surely not dodging at all.
In reality this 0,5m will make a difference maybe 1-2 times in match.
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that range will make a difference way more often than you can imagine.
survivors dont run 100 meters in a straight line and yet they still shift w key from nemesis and always will, meaning that with the buff he would get an opportunity to hit them even earlier and they wont be able to reach the windows/turns they previously would.
0.5m increase to range on an ability that manifests its hitbox all the way through immediately is a way bigger buff than you can imagine.
as for "not dodging at all", if survivors consistently dodge you tentacle as nemi, they are not dodging, you're missing it and making horrible reads on them.
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It simply makes crouching, vaccines and infection less punishing.
His time to down is still going to be bad, because he needs to get an extra hit.
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unknown has to get an extra hit in every chase, but you wouldn't call him bad, would you?
considering how easily nemesis reaches t2 now and that survivor is now slowed much more meaningfully, I won't be just randomly issuing really big buffs to his chase & catching up capabilities without testing.
again, he won't break the ceiling of S tier, but he'll very likely to become extremely annoying in pubs.
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I did find the changes misplaced as well. - I haven't played much dbd in general in a while, even less so killer, but every once in a while I have a nemmy-phase (idk, all in all ~300-500hrs on nemmy) and the one thing I always found borderline obnoxious is how safe-or-suck he is: You get two fresh tentacle hits early game? (So within the first ~30 seconds) - Brilliant, if you don't mess up royally you'll 3k easily in the vast majority of your matches (provided they're not on one of the huge-ass maps) - to the point where it's boring. You didn't get two fresh hits early game? - Well, sucks to be you; if the survs don't mess up royally or you have some insane regression build/play incredibly scummy that's ggs right there; 2man out guaranteed, usually 3 or all 4.
The change doesn't address the one thing that negates getting T2(and T3) early - namely huge maps - and makes the oppressive nature of him on any map that isn't huge even more pronounced since reaching T2/3 is now easier (/is more likely to come with an early down which puts pressure on survivors even earlier).
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As a Nemesis player yourself, I did want to ask you...
I personally would have liked to see his zombies become more dangerous via use of red heads, with self defence tools like in the RE:make to compensate, so I'm with you on that direction...
But, I hear people talk about giving him a rocket launcher often...
I genuinely wanted to ask... have you given any thought to how that could possibly work in the game? I admit it would be cool... but practically speaking where would you even start in making a rocket launcher remotely believable/engaging to face?
Every other hit in this game is something that you can squint and believe someone could survive... yes chainsaws, hatchets, knives, harpoon guns, kunai, bear traps, etc would maim you more than is represented in the game, but the point is you COULD survive, so our suspension of disbelief isnt hit too hard....
However no amount of squinting or logic twisting is gonna remotely allow me to accept surviving a shot from a rocket launcher... and how would you even juke the darn thing?
Maybe if it had a minimum arming time, that might work... but again, how on earth would you begin to make it remotely fair? Far as I can see, it'd have to have so many restrictions, it almost becomes pointless having it... like literally I'd be considering giving it 1, and only 1 shot if I was to remotely take the idea seriously.
Do you have any thoughts of how a rocket launcher could work? Cause I'd be interested to read it.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
Pretty sure Jill survived the rocket launcher in games too.
As for balancing - balancing it like Unknown's grenades but with direct aiming/projectile would make the most sense. Give survivor as laser pointer warning which also helps to see where the killer is aiming and make it so they need to slightly predict where the killer shoots so there's room for a mindgame. Add a minimal windup and max wind up hold duration to make it worse at zoning.
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A bad idea in the source does not make it a good idea to bring across my guy… Whether you love or hate Resident Evil, even as a fan and labelling it as the Resident Evil goofy cheese that we adore, anyone would have to admit Jill tanking that hit was pretty ridiculous if you consider it with even the hardest lean of realism. Like the game doesn't have to be realistic… but it does have to have some semblance of logic and rules in place… and once you've defined your logic and rules in your Universe, you have to stick to them, you can't just break them at will… and a Rocket Launcher in DBD just doesn't make sense.
I mean think about it… are we honestly saying a survivor could survive a direct hit from a rocket launcher… but not a knife to the stomach from Michael Myers? No amount of suspended disbelief allows that to not be a 1 shot… and you might think it's not important, but to plenty of people, it is.
Having the world grounded in rules allows lots of people, like myself, to maintain investment in the world and story. If literally anything goes, then that lowers the stakes, and drastically reduces investment in that story/world/universe, because you know that there is no cause and effect, whatever the creator wants can just be deus ex machina'd in without rhyme or reason. E.g. Why should I care about the narrative of trying to kill/catch survivors, when the Entity can instead just say "I choose to not let this survivor die in this explosion, cause it is not yet time". Like why am I as the killer even here?
Even if we push that aside…. for balancing, that'd be awful… The Unknown's main power is that he can hit AoE… and even he has to hit the target twice, AND he can't hit direct hits…. How precisely are we gonna balance a Rocket Launcher… when Unknown's goop is balanced, and takes 2 hits to injure someone?
Like if I was to be serious about adding a rocket launcher for Nemesis… I'd say… a rocket launcher spawns with a single shot in a crate after all injections have been used by survivors. This rocket launcher has a minimum arming distance of 24m, and will instant down any survivor caught in the outer explosion, or hit directly by the missile before it is armed. Any survivor caught in the central explosion of a shot over 24m is instantly mori'd and turned to giblets.
Post edited by EQWashu on2 -
Firstly, that means that survivors not dying from rocket launcher isnt that big of a deal as you make it out to be.
Secondly, Unknown's blast works just fine. Rocket launcher being a variation of it with some other limits would be fine. It's not that deep as you think it is.
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Firstly, that means that survivors not dying from rocket launcher isnt that big of a deal as you make it out to be.
Umm... sorry?
Secondly, Unknown's blast works just fine. Rocket launcher being a variation of it with some other limits would be fine. It's not that deep as you think it is.
Ummmmm... sorry?
I am totally confused... neither of those statements are compatible at all with anything I just said.... 🤨🤨🤨
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it's very much compatible.
let me put it even simpler: all you said is not relevant.
if devs want to add rocket launcher (Which would too late for nemesis alas but we`re speaking generally), they would add and no amount of coping "tHiS dOeSnT mAkE sEnsE" would stop them.
If devs do add rocket launcher - best balancing would be to make an alternative version of unknown's UVX blast with different balancing factors which always worked just fine.
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Ah I see. The old "I choose to completely ignore your argument and not engage with any points raised" counter.
You're entitled to that point of view.
You're wrong, but you're entitled to it.0 -
Im not the one gatekeeping fun things from the game :)
You're objectively wrong because your entire point boils down "they cant do that because I said so".
If they ever decide to add rocket launcher, we'll have one. Period.
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if devs want to add rocket launcher (Which would too late for nemesis alas but we`re speaking generally), they would add and no amount of coping "tHiS dOeSnT mAkE sEnsE" would stop them.
OK, I am gonna rewrite Trapper's lore. He's actually a lovely boy who has been tormented his whole life, and his only childhood friend was his plush toy Rabbi the Rabbit.
Because he loves him so much, he wants to use him in the trial, so instead of using his machete he now hits survivors over the head with Rabbi to injure and down them. Is there anything special about Rabbi? No he's a normal plush toy Rabbit.
That is dumb, and doesn't make any sense, how can a plush toy Rabbit hurt anyone?
If the devs want to add a plush toy Rabbit as a weapon, they would add it, and no amount of "tHiS dOeSnT mAkE sEnsE" would stop them.
I'm not the one gatekeeping fun things from the game, and if you disagree with Rabbi, you're objectively wrong because your entire point boils down to "they can't do that because I said no".
I'm not trying to insult you, but this kinda argumentation is why we get so many crap sequels to all kinds of games and films in modern media. Continuity, world rules and logic are extremely important, even (and I'd almost say especially) in fiction.
The universal rules in DBD are set, and a rocket launcher doesn't make sense. I am willing to listen to how a rocket launcher can be made to make sense, but your current iteration is extremely bad in the context of the Universal logic of DBD as it stands.
I don't think it is unreasonable of me to ask you to do a better job in defining your rocket launcher in a way that is more consistent with the current world rules of DBD, rather than just hearing you say "make it like Unknown" and consider the problem solved.
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Let's please remember to keep the discussion in here civil and respectful. Thank you.
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unknown has to get an extra hit in every chase, but you wouldn't call him bad, would you?
And Unknown is not really slowed for using his power. He also can teleport.
Can Nemesis teleport? No, he needs to walk around the map all the time...
Unknown is way better than Nemesis....
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so the issue isnt a 3rd healthstate.
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Most killers in DBD would be terrible if survivors had 3rd health state. So it is the issue.
What matters if killer's power is good enough to justify such a thing.
Nemesis is not really better than PH, yet PH doesn't need to deal with third health state.
Those changes gets Nemi's power closer to be good enough.
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Nemesis destroys predrops & has very fast wind up and very generous hitbox making it one of the easiest abilities to use. On top of that, he has zombies which take zero effort to use. Nemesis is the easiest midrange M2 to play because how low his skill floor is.
Just randomly buffing his power even further without testing isnt a good idea. At this point there's no reason in doing PTBs at all.
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At this point there's no reason in doing PTBs at all.
Are you new to DBD?
You better get used to this. It's normal for them to do such changes. They have done way bigger changes than this in past...
Nemesis destroys predrops & has very fast wind up and very generous hitbox making it one of the easiest abilities to use.
Well, but can't hit over windows and any loop as long survivors crouch...
Zombies are really random.
His tentacle is not stronger than Pyramid head's attack.
And Zombies are definitely not good enough to justify third hit.
So options were either buff tentacle, or zombies. Survivors wouldn't like buff for Zombies and there wouldn't be direct feedback for Nemesis (player), so focusing on buffing tentacle is definitely better option.
He still gets slowed by pulling tentacle, so greeding pallet is still good against Nemi. His power also cancels when he gets stunned, unlike PH.
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No, im pretty familiar with dbd, more than you, simply pointing out yet another example of PTB being useless.
as for nemi's tentacle, it's kinda funny how you accuse me of being new and yet grossly underestimate the impact of that distance increase. such an experienced veteran player like you should be able to understand that randomly increasing one of the most important stats for characters like that without any testing isn't a good idea, especially for a low effort killer like nemesis.
it's kinda weird how experienced veteran players will die on a hill defending any random buffs to characters because these buffs wouldnt delete these character's weaknesses or wouldnt make them S tier. That amount of experience should mean you'd be able to recognize the balance between effort&skill and reward for that.
Oh well, doesnt matter bc people wouldnt pick nemesis often even if devs buffed him into S tier as they're already bored with 3 y/o killer with basic power.
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facts. This OG post is a little dramatic.
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more than you
Sure you are, if it makes you happy…
yet another example of PTB being useless
You sure you are not new? Because before they didn't do any changes between PTB and live. That was actually useless PTB. This is way better than what we had before.
it's kinda funny how you accuse me of being new
I asked, because you act like this is new thing, while it was always like this. Yet, you are so suprised by it… I never asked about your "skill", nor I care.
yet grossly underestimate the impact of that distance increase
Nemesis doesn't see his range and he is punished by missing a lot. It's not going to be regular thing for this it matter. Most hits will be under 6 meters and this is working only for tier 3 anyway. I don't believe it will make him that much better.
such an experienced veteran player like you should be able to understand that randomly increasing one of the most important stats for characters like that without any testing isn't a good idea, especially for a low effort killer like nemesis
I don't consider Nemesis low effort. He is easier than killers like Blight, Nurse, PH etc. but there is many killers easier than him…
I can guess the impact of those changes quite well, because of my hours in DBD and mainly on Nemesis. It will help, but it won't make him suddenly super oppresive. His counterplay is still exactly same and equally effective.That amount of experience should mean you'd be able to recognize the balance between effort&skill and reward for that.
Yes, it does. Funny you think it doesn't, just because I don't agree with you… Feel free to mention me later, if it will become an issue BHVR needs to deal with :)
Oh well, doesnt matter bc people wouldnt pick nemesis often
So it's not an issue… If he would be S tier killer, players would play him. But he won't be anywwhere near close to it.
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I imagine it working with a telegraph, like in REmake 3 the way there's a targeting laser that changes color when fired. The projectile can move no faster than the slowest huntress hatchet, and can be limited in number to balance it being one shot downs (2 or fewer shots per game) or one health state (8 shots or fewer).
Let it spawn in one of the 4 item boxes that have vaccines but make it random and need to be briefly searched by Nemesis. It could replace the whip but function the same in terms of wind up time and movement speed slowdown.
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you look more interested in arguing semantics and nitpicking on my words. keep it going, i wont interrupt
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you look more interested in arguing semantics and nitpicking on my words. keep it going, i wont interrupt
That's just my side hobby, my primary interest is being right… I know it can be difficult to understand for new players :)
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saying that you're right and being right are two different things.
first one is what trolls usually do. i think i'll do something better than wasting my time on you because your way of talking is filled with red flags like that :0 have a nice day
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saying that you're right and being right are too different things
Not really for me, but I guess you should be used to this being the case...
your way of talking is filled with red flags
git gud
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I'd have a much easier time accepting a 1 shot down version… though 2 shots is kinda raising this flag of why have it in the game? It either has to be so strong that's it becomes oppressive, or so trivial that it doesn't matter.
Replacing his tentacle with it is just not feasible to me. As I said in my other posts above, a Rocket Launcher is hard pill to swallow someone surviving a direct or near hit.
A quick Google reveals that the effective lethal range of a standard rocket laucher is 15m, and then shrapnel is lethal for a further 150m.
If we ignore the shrapnel, 15m is a pretty large distance, and even if you gamify it and make it half of that, you're still talking 7-8m, which is about a the size of a weak pallet loop... even a small rocket launcher explosive radius is the size of a weak loop, and I don't know how you make that remotely fair and still keep it as a Rocket Launcher...
To scale it down to his tentacle, it becomes less a rocket launcher and more of a firework pop rocket dispenser...
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I wanted them to focus more on Zombies for Nemesis rather than make him a generic M2 killer.
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My thoughts exactly. The ability to hit over a pallet/window with M2 is shared with like a a third of the killer cast. I wanted the buffs to focus on what makes Nemesis more unique (zombies, infection, the supply boxes).
Some people in here didn't even read my post when I stated he would still be a bad killer after these changes.
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Reading your conversations, I'm so glad I ended up this dialogue on the moment, where he said that survivors dodging m2 is only my fault kekw
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Don't read those. It's bad for your eyes and brain.
Well, we are on DBD forum, so I guess everyone is lost case...
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Yeah, if I took part in every hopeless dialogue, I would definitely have gone crazy by now. But reading from outside is even fun sometimes.
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True and that's valid, a rocket launcher is silly and would make little sense in dbd. However, what I had in mind was more in line with the actual gameplay of resident evil 3 and it's remake. If it hit like firework pop rockets, I'd be fine with that because that is how it works in the games when you get hit. It impacts your character like an isolated concussive blast rather than a piercing shrapnel explosive gore death, for the sake of gameplay and aesthetic.
Edit- Now that I think about it, there could have also been a neat survivor dodge mechanic for the rocket launcher to be more faithful to games. It would add a skillful interaction for the survivors while keeping the rocket launcher at a somewhat more lethal spot. I don't know, I know it's asking too much at this point.
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Because there has been a great uproar about Nemesis lately and it HAS been a very long time Nemesis has been looked at.
bHVR is listening and trying stuff even if it might not be the changes we all want.
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I honestly love that idea tho. It rewards Nemesis with the ability to kill a single survivor if he forces them to use all vaccines but he still has to land the missile too.
That would be insanely dope. Imagine shooting a locker a survivor hopped into😭😂
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It's crazy that they went through the time to change him, yet haven't addressed the whip missing, yet still hitting survivors because he turns while the whip is actively retracting
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