Why Tunneling needs to be examined by BHVR
As background I recently did a comparative group of sessions on solo queue play between sessions that were close to two years apart.
I summarized and showed all of the data on the two sessions and provided links to the videos of the games here.
There are a total of 175 solo survivor games worth of data between the two sessions The most concerning data showed that, over two years, my escape rate fell from 45.3% to 26%. As well, the actual escape rate was 31% for all survivors overall in the current sessions. However, when the games without tunneling and camping were excluded from the data set the average escape rate was 44% for all survivors. When only games with tunneling and camping were included the escape rate was 7.69% for all survivors. When I examined the previous set of games it turns out the main driver behind the reduction in escape rates between the two sessions was that tunnelling had increased five fold.
That much of a divergence in results would signify that the kill rate data used for balancing is flawed and will get worse if tunnelling becomes more common. Unless your analysts are specifically viewing each game and determining if there is tunnelling there would be no way to determine the disproportionate effect it has as tunnelling is not linked to more easily measurable data such as perk picks and Killer choice. As BHVR keeps on introducing perks with incentives to not tunnel and the entirety of the Emblem system is hindered by camping and tunnelling it does not appear tunnelling is your design choice.
However, an easily available tactic that increases win rates by that amount against a subset of players is concerning. Solo queue survivors do constitute a large portion of the playerbase and it is not human nature to continue playing a game for entertainment if your chance of succeeding is less than 10%. As well, balancing Killers off of a kill rate that is inflated by tunnelling will lead to frustration among Killers who will then feel forced to tunnel or will drop the game as tunnelling would be inflating the kill rates enough it would appear there is a problem when there isn't one (assuming tunnelling is not the intended play style).
It also suggests that tunnelling is too effective for solo queue to be able to handle consistently. My escape rate was at over 45% before tunnelling substantially increased in my games and, when tunnelling was removed from the equation, the overall escape rate in the current set of games was 44%. This strongly suggests the issue is tunnelling. The skill floor to counter tunnelling may simply be too high for a random group of teammates with no way to communicate or coordinate perks to counter while the skill floor is extremely low to tunnel and it's extremely effective.
As I've been playing since a bit before the introduction of MMR there is no question my MMR should have stabilized as I've been playing throughout the entirety that MMR has been around. All changes that have been made since the two sets of data for Survivors has been positive (hook grab removal, status icons introduced, bots for DCs introduced) and yet escapes have been cut significantly.
My suggestion is that to determine if this is a phenomena that is not restricted to just my experience would be to have your playtesters queue into solo queue games and measure the escape rates versus tunnelling and non-tunnelling Killers over a large enough sample size. If the same phenomena occurs with your playtesters you might to consider taking much stronger action against tunnelling than you have in the future as it would be distorting your data, preventing you from making accurate balancing decisions and negatively affecting player retention.
Comments
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How do you define tunneling?
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It's in the post I linked to along with a video sample.
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Neat data. I wonder how much other changes like map changes have impacted this, and I also wonder if you are including people giving up.
I'm curious if you standardized other variables in this, like time of day played or using the same strength of build? I don't think build matters much in solo, but if I am going to have better solo games they will pretty much always be during the day.3 -
Thanks, I didn't filter by maps or time of day as I didn't filter them in the first set of games awhile back either. I also played a mix of builds the first time around so I did the same the second time around. My guess is time of day would probably show a variation in frequency of being tunneled but I just stuck to my regular playing times. What I was more concerned with though was the effectiveness of tunnelling when I filtered results for just games with tunneling and saw there was only 1 survivor win (3E) and 25 Killer wins (3 or 4K).
I originally started this comparison to see how much tunnelling had increased; it was after filtering for the results I realized how much of an effect it had on the match.
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Since you brought it up, what was the percentage of your games that had tunneling now as compared to before?
Do you think you'll do this again or anything similar? Really cool to see this since I had kinda wondered if it was the case but there's not so much evidence lol.0 -
BHVR nuking nearly every single Gen Regression perk lead to a surge of killers tunneling
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It was 5.3% of the time I saw tunneling in the original set of games close to two years ago and 26% now. The reason for the nice, neat number is that my original data set had 75 games and my current data set has 100 games.
I'm probably consider something like this again later if I notice major changes. I now have two snapshots of what things were like over different periods of time so it would be interesting to see over a period of time.
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Interesting! I wonder if you can even compare changes to things like when "slowdown gets nerfed" or whatever to address these sorts of claims. I think trying to tie some sorts of correlations to the data could be useful, since it may be hard to know how to address these things otherwise.
I still think your original data and conclusion is important, just thinking about the future.2 -
That could be one of the reasons it went up. It still doesn't change that a mechanic that unfairly advantages one side needs to be examined and corrected. Take, for example, the games where Otz had people play against Skull Merchant in the Erupting Call of Overbrine era and they couldn't break the 3 gen. It was an unfair advantage and got corrected. Another example was pre 6.1 DH for distance that unfairly elevated escape rates.
If my experience holds true to BHVR's playtesters then tunnelling is the same sort of situation and it provides an unfair advantage that needs to be corrected. Then BHVR can balance if needed. Based off of my experience I don't know if any changes would be needed as the escape rate was overall 44% in the games without tunnelling. It doesn't appear that tunnelling is needed and that it's more people say that because they want a win rate that is significantly greater than that of their opponents (which is the definition of an unbalanced game) and that's why they defend tunnelling.
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That would be good. I don't know the exact date of the first data set but it was after 6.1 and before the removal of hook grabs, the facecamping timer, etc. It would be interesting to see if there was any correlation between perk changes.
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If the escape rate is 44% without tunneling, they'd need to buff killers a fair bit more to compensate if they want that 60% kill rate right? Because if it's 44% in solo then the escape rate would presumably be higher in a SWF.
Although I guess thinking about it more the SWF escape rate isn't much higher based on this https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/405382/new-stats-feb-15th-2024/p1
Also it's interesting to consider how much tuennling impacts those stats they release too.
Anyway, I don't think most killer players need tunneling to do well in the vast majority of games either. Part of the disconnect is a 60% kill rate doesn't seem to be satisfying to many killer players and they only want a 4K which seems to often to lead to a pulling in both directions situation.
Personally I don't mind tunneling as much as camping because camping isn't that interesting for either side especially if it's a killer that's strong at camping, but both seem pretty hard for people to deal with and they have big impacts on game outcomes. That's maybe why they are testing these changes like 70s hook timer.
Tunneling does seem to discourage a lot of new players from playing, so it might be good to change. But it also seems hard to change these things without reworking the game a lot which seems like a lot to do. Maybe UE5 will allow for more opportunities to experiment for both sides….2 -
The last part is exactly why tunneling has to change. I personally know multiple people who couldn't get into the game because of how tunneling disproportionately hurts newer players. I don't personally have an issue with tunneling in most cases and it doesn't effect my games as often as other people claims it does for them. However I do understand where they are coming from due to the experiences of my friends.
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It does discourage a lot of new players from playing; I definitely agree. I also added in my post I linked to Killers might need buffs if the desired escape rate is 40% and another of the issues with tunnelling is that the Killers who do tunnel are masking that from the dev team with such a disproportionately effective tactic by increasing kill rates so much it looks like everything is either fine or some Killers might need a nerf (when they don't in reality and the opposite might be true).
That negatively affects player retention moreso for Survivors but also for Killers although not as much. Some Killers might like the chasing but not want to camp or tunnel and a lot of the 'but Killers need to tunnel!' rhetoric might come from people who used tunnelling a lot and are now against Survivors that are so skilled they don't stand a chance against unless they tunnel.
It's anecdotal but I think that's shown in how there are examples of Killers with barely a hundred or two hundred hours who are winning games against teams with Survivors over a 1000 hours. The asymmetrical nature makes it more complicated but in what other game would a player with less than one-fifth to one-tenth the experience pull off wins against far more experienced players on a regular basis? This leads to situations where Killers are faced against Survivors that have multiple times the experience and then against coordinated teams who maul the Killer since their other game skills are underdeveloped for the MMR they're at. That's not a fun experience either.
As well, if Killers do need a buff but Killers needing a buff is disguised by artificially inflated kill rates due to tunnelling then that would also be very frustrating for new players. In the long run, if my data holds true to the playtesters, the only group that isn't disadvantaged by tunnelling being in the game is the ones doing the tunnelling.
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Yeah that's an interesting perspective. Nothing much to add besides I wish we could think of some concrete fixes because it's clear with things like 2v8 hooks that the devs want to try other solutions while being fair but maybe haven't gotten there yet.
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I hope we do too. I have some ideas that may work but it's not like I can playtest it or it's going to be an easy fix. It has to be something that addresses the issue without being abusable and especially not abusable enough it swing balance too far in the other direction as that wouldn't be far either. It's not like any of the players can just casually rewrite the code and access a group of playtesters to measure how it works in reality so all I'm really doing is just bringing my experience to BHVR's attention so they can check it out themselves.
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alright, let's settle some things.
Tunneling (camping too) got quite some nerfs in history, but somehow, every single one ended with literally no "positive" impact for average survivors on matches, even led to further decline of escape rates.
if any counter for a specific item/strat/character in any game gets buffed, even a 1% increase in winrate (escape rate in this case tho) would mean that the item/strategy/character has 50/50 chance that they were actually unbalanced. In this case, the escape rate is still in decline. That literally means there is something else that is actually the problem.
But here we are, following the "nerf tunneling" discourse again. Like we are clearly noticing that majority of problem lies in the players, but we still have to bring it up because we are expecting BHVR to give us wins on autopilot.
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I don't think tunneling has been addressed much besides the DS/OTR buff and the basekit BT? These things definitely help a lot but I wouldn't say it stops a determined player, especially a higher tier killer character. What's being talked about here is basically making it impossible/not optimal to tunnel.
The reason the kill rate is rising is because the developers do not yet have all killers around 60% kill rate and that is their goal and so they make more changes overall that help killers. That's my view anyway, but this thread also suggests that killer players may have changed their strategy more over the years too and that has also increased the kill rate(possibly a lot) which is interesting. Why they started tunneling more is something to wonder about, but the case is that it happens and it seems to also affect games a lot.1 -
DS received a (completely wrong kind of) buff survivors still don't know how to use.
OTR is insanely strong, even more after hook grabs removal.
People are still picking these two perks not because they know how to use them, but because they are expecting killer to avoid them because of expectation they have them equipped.
These things definitely help a lot but I wouldn't say it stops a determined player, especially a higher tier killer character. What's being talked about here is basically making it impossible/not optimal to tunnel.
determined tunneler is a killer that doesn't know when to drop a chase and will waste tremendous amounts of time trying to down the survivor they are trying to tunnel out. Tunneling is optimal atm only because average survivor is really bad at chase (20s chase compared to 60s for high tier killers and 90s for other killers in case of good survivors) and/or gives up prematurely.
Additionally, it's a way too weaponized term used even when killer doesn't tunnel at all.
The reason the kill rate is rising is because the developers do not yet have all killers around 60% kill rate and that is their goal and so they make more changes overall that help killers. That's my view anyway, but this thread also suggests that killer players may have changed their strategy more over the years too and that has also increased the kill rate(possibly a lot) which is interesting. Why they started tunneling more is something to wonder about, but the case is that it happens and it seems to also affect games a lot.
how many overall handholding mechanics killer have received compared to survivors in last one year? I'm not saying they should get any, but i keep saying same for survivors, since more handholding mechanics = less overall skill and lazier players. It's so obvious how average survivor skill rapidly deteriorated after first true handholding mechanics were added. Depipping removal was another reason for people to go next on hook in order to avoid losing pips and have 0 punishments before they instaload into next match to ruin it for 3 new people in their team again.
Why they started tunneling? Simple, average survivor literally tends to get 2-tapped in chases due to lack of chase knowledge. This means killer wastes almost no time in order to force a complete 3v1.
The same reason camping is still very popular. Average survivor will just go next on hook instead of greeding themselves on hook in order to give their team maximum amount of time before a trade.
We still haven't taken care of making DCing more punishable, removing kobes, making report system much more useful, MMR much more strict etc. Those are first things that need to be taken care of. And additionally, don't balance the game around people that have no idea how to play it.
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It's more that you're missing the point again. The majority of the issue most likely lies with the strategy itself and yet you're attempting a 'git gud' discourse once again ignoring that the escape rates in the first batch of games was 45.3% which declined by over 19% over two years with the main change in the games being tunneling substantially increased and the overall escape rate between the two sets of data was nearly exactly the same once the games with tunneling were filtered out.
Once again if you feel that is the issue you're more than welcome to post your own data set and videod of 100 to 175 games showing how you managed to get four random people to tank hits, coordinate hook exchanges, etc when you have never met them before, have no idea of their perks, can't communicate with them, etc. Until then you sound like you're just making a wild defense of a strategy you're afraid of losing as it gives easy wins and should take your own advice regarding your Killer play.
That appears even more so to be the case as the thread itself is suggesting BHVR use its own playtesters and investigate it themselves. Are you scared of it being investigated as you know it'll reveal it's an 'easy win' strategy? If not then there shouldn't be an issue with BHVR doing its own investigation and coming to their own conclusion as DbD is their own game and their major revenue driver so BHVR can make their own decisions as to what to do. If BHVR doesn't feel it's an issue they won't change it and, if they do, they'll change it as soon as they come up with a feasible strategy.
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Quite frankly, it's easy to pinpoint some factors that increased (not created, there's a difference, tunnelling has always been in the game, it's just been getting worse) the frequency of tunnelling.
Almost every single gen-regression perks were nerfed, some of them might as well be useless (CoB, Eruption is literally a risk to use since the ill-thought-out regression limit and same goes for Undone) while most of them are merely decent (Pop post-nerf, Overcharge but only against newcomers/casuals, Oppression) and Pain Res remaining the best despite all the nerfs since it provides the best value for the least risk to trigger the regression limit.
Having less options for getting more time, especially for weaker/slower/M1 Killers, obviously incentivizes playing more aggressively to compensate. The best slowdown is a dead Survivor and it's only getting more true as options keep getting reduced.
Then, popular chase & non-regression slowdown perks, which were used to shorten chases, slow down healing or to get into chases faster after a hook, were nerfed into the ground over a rather short period of time; STBFL became worthless on some Killers and downright unuseable on Deathslinger & Trickster, Sloppy and every sources of Hemmorage and Mangled was put on a timer that decent Survivors ignore most of the time, Ultimate Weapon was killed off completely.
All those nerfs made Killer, perk and playstyle variety go down, encouraging tunnelling and proxy-camping to compensate for weaker/limited slowdown, anti-heal and chase power. This is even more true for Killers on the weaker end of the spectrum.
If tunnelling goes down (not disappear, that's impossible) it will be because even for weaker Killers and against decent Survivors, there will be either other viable options and/or incentives to not tunnel.
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Your overall argument isn't supported, though, either by my Survivor data or my albeit anecdotal Killer experience. Tunnelling is not necessary to get a good win rate in public matches. I'm not referring to competitive of course but tunneling is not necessary for myself to have a good win rate and my data set showed that Killers who didn't camp or tunnel still had a kill rate of 56% overall. That does not imply anyone was struggling because they didn't camp or tunnel.
Specifics of your arguments are more nuanced as you made reference to specific Killers and I don't have the data to discuss specific Killers. As well, it's clear from observation there's a huge delta between the strongest Killers and the weakest Killers and my personal preference would be the delta be reduced by bringing more of the Killer roster closer to Nurse and Blight and not closer to Freddy and Trapper.
As well, the competitive scene is entirely different from public matches and that's something BHVR will have to consider as well. I can't change the code and I don't have access to playtesters so any suggestions any player makes is essentially just spitballing and brainstorming anyway. I wouldn't want to see the pain one group is currently experiencing simply displaced to another anyway but tunneling is unnecessary in public matches. I wouldn't want comp scene players, though, to end up suffering either so that might complicate the solution. I say might because I can't say definitively what the solution is because of the code and playtester factors I mentioned above.
Overall though and the problem with the incentives argument is that tunnelling is not necessary in public matter and, if there is no reduction in effectiveness in tunnelling, people will still tunnel and just use the incentives to make tunnelling more effective. DbD's history has shown that so the only way to effectively address the issue is to reduce the effectiveness of tunnelling.
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It's more that you're missing the point again. The majority of the issue most likely lies with the strategy itself and yet you're attempting a 'git gud' discourse once again ignoring that the escape rates in the first batch of games was 45.3% which declined by over 19% over two years with the main change in the games being tunneling substantially increased and the overall escape rate between the two sets of data was nearly exactly the same once the games with tunneling were filtered out.
the majority of issue "most likely lies with the strategy itself" and then we have tunneled survivor getting 2-tapped in chases, going next on hook and actually wasting 90% less killer's time than a good survivor would do.
Why did tunneling usage and success rate increase even though anti-tunneling perks exist, but people don't attempt to realize those perks need at least some skill to use? You are making conclusions based on "research" on the level of a person doing winstreaks in pubs and looking only at killrates using specific strat for making conclusions. That's not how thorough research works.
Once again if you feel that is the issue you're more than welcome to post your own data set and videod of 100 to 175 games showing how you managed to get four random people to tank hits, coordinate hook exchanges, etc when you have never met them before, have no idea of their perks, can't communicate with them, etc.
first, you don't need to coordinate hits tanking and hook trades at all against average tunneling killer because they are quite easy to be fooled by a good survivor because they lack awareness of when to drop a chase.
A good uhooked survivor with anti-tunneling build will be able to buy your team 2+ minutes at which only thing you need to worry about is doing gens.
second, so here we come, we talk about randoms and never ever meeting them before. That literally makes it a player related factor. Why is my teammate getting 2-tapped in first chase? Why aren't my teammates doing gens when i'm successfully wasting 2 and more minutes of killer's time? Why are my teammates wandering around the map like some tourists instead of doing their objectives? Why should i blame balance around specific strategy because my teammates decide to act like "ohh, they're tunneling again, let's go next"?
The only balance related things i would implement are visible perk loadouts in pregame lobby and a lot more tightened up MMR system.
That appears even more so to be the case as the thread itself is suggesting BHVR use its own playtesters and investigate it themselves. Are you scared of it being investigated as you know it'll reveal it's an 'easy win' strategy? If not then there shouldn't be an issue with BHVR doing its own investigation and coming to their own conclusion as DbD is their own game and their major revenue driver so BHVR can make their own decisions as to what to do. If BHVR doesn't feel it's an issue they won't change it and, if they do, they'll change it as soon as they come up with a feasible strategy.
if they ever implement more handholding mechanics against tunneling, it will literally be same as with other ones like that: more revenue from selling skins, literal fortnite model of profiting :)
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So riddle me why the overall escape rate for my games two years ago was 45% overall and has dropped to 26% overall now with it also being 44% overall if tunnelling and camping games are excluded but the actual escape rate for games where tunnelling games are solely considered is 7.69%? With the major change being tunnelling increased by 500%?
Had survivors "gotten gud" before but just got worse after even though the escape rate for both sets of time is the almost the exact same amount once tunnelling is excluded? Or is the problem that tunnelling is disproportionately effective? What makes more sense? People overall got worse in two years or that you're missing the point yet again and making specious arguments?
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yes, average survivor skill deteriorated so much after all the unnecessary changes that were only meant to suit the "casual" players in the way to reduce cognitive involvement of the player into the game aka. spoiling players so much to the point they will expect their opponent to fully obey their imaginary community rules.
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That's ridiculous. Keep on believing that then.
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….WHAT????
You are saying survivors are weaker now than they were with old DS DH Adrenaline IW Medkits and stronger maps and less resources to use to improve???
Yeah I don't think we can gain much from a discussion here.1 -
who said that? There is a difference between having broken perks and having handholding mechanics that remove your actual cognitive play, but you seem to literally twist my words to get your own narrative outta them. Broken perk leads to more meta abuse, handholding mechanics lead to literal spoiling of players.
i don't have right to have that after carefully examining every match i ever played for the last 1 year as killer in pubs and actually manage to draw the line between it and scrims i played? Ok bro, believe in your own ideology.
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Yeah because it was obviously much harder for Survivors when there was DH for distance, i-frames, permanent aura reading on the Killer, permanently sabotagable hooks, insta repair BNPs, working on gens with DS active, three second heals, infinite loops, etc.
Survivors are definitely being handheld and coddled now in comparison to when all of that existed.
Keep on believing that; I'm sure every fair minded and critical thinking person will agree with that.
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that time was literally when BHVR still wasn't aware of what game turned into, DH was broken and handlef after, they had no idea about looping becoming a thing at the beginning and thus "fixed it after". Comparing times when BHVR was unaware of what game is becoming to this time when it's literal cattering to casual/bad players by implementing basekit features to counter more used strategies because those players make BHVR profit the most.
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Based on my observations, I can confirm that if the killer resorts to tunneling, he usually wins, and if he doesn't, he loses (provided that the team of survivors plays normally). At the same time, the game from tunneling, as it seems to me, is not interesting for either the maniac or the survivors.
I would really like to see the tunneling tactic made less effective, but at the same time, it might make sense to buff the killers or weaken the survivors in something else. It would be especially good if the killer received some kind of increase in the second half of the game, in the event that the repair goes too fast, and the hooked and wounds of the survivors go too slowly.
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bro arguing with himself? Nobody is saying any of these things but you dude..
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Did you read the post I responded to?
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What I've suggested in different threads is that there is a generator repair speed debuff that is active while the survivors are alive. This debuff would then disappear and be replaced by a repair speed buff each time a survivor is killed.
My hope is that it would reduce the snowbally nature of DbD and make more matches 2 or 3K instead of the 4K or 0K.
Realistically of course I have no way to test it to see if it would work but that's the theory anyway.
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The problem here is that tunneling is not a mechanic. It is a play style. The only way to “correct” it would be to create a mechanic that doesn’t allow it to happen. This in itself would become a problem because it guarantees that four survivors stay on the map. So trying to correct a play style would give an unfair advantage to survivors by means of mechanics.
I really don’t understand people here.
Survivor main goals - fix generators and escape.
Killers main goals- prevent generator repair and kill survivors.Complaining survivors that don’t like that the killer was able to slow down generators or stop them when survivors made bad choices effectively got rid of one of the killer’s main goals.
And now you’re upset that they are focusing on the other goal, because the first one has been nerfed into the ground?
I give up with these people. Let’s just remove all the killers altogether and let’s just have a generator repair simulator. That’s pretty much what these people want.
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For some reason, reading your post gives me an image of an elderly Trapper in a lawn chair yelling for the survivors to get off his lawn.
You didn't respond to any of the actual arguments or points by the way except for a disingenous attempt to paint tunnelling as comparable to spreading hooks which is completely false.
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I am very clearly stated that you cannot “mechanic out” play style without creating a mechanic that gives a MAJOR advantage to survivors. There was nothing disingenuous about it. You know exactly what I said and you also very clearly want to have your hand held through every aspect of the game. Nobody wants to take accountability for why we have such a problem with tunneling. Maybe it’s because survivors have had their hands held in every other aspect of the game. This entire thread is “people are playing in a way that I don’t like so create a mechanic to force them to play how I want them to play.” That’s exactly what you’re saying. You can use all of the statistics and all of the wording that you want to try and make it sound .
First it was “We made poor choices with what generators we popped, and now we can’t finish them all do something.”
Next it was “Slowdown perks actually slow us down do something!”Now it’s “The killer is killing me instead of letting all four survivors stay in game to pop gens do something.”
It’s unreal. And so long as you have that mindset, things like this will constantly happen, no matter what they do with the game, because unless you are literally allowed to work on generators with no interruption from the killer whatsoever, you will not be happy.
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Stepping in with a reminder to please keep the discussion civil and respectful. Thank you.
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Or it's more that a strategy that has over a 90% win rate when used against randoms is overpowered, has a greater effect on the game than broken items such as pre 6.1 Dead Hard, and should be removed or lessened in effectiveness as it's unfair and distorts data.
If you feel it's so easy to overcome feel free to post 100 to 175 of your solo survivor queues effectively combating tunneling on a consistent basis. I posted games for my proof so, unless you do so, you really have no leg to stand on nor actual arguments. So show me the gameplay and your escape rates over a large enough sample.
As it is BHVR has already seen the post so BHVR can decide if this is concerning enough to investigate, the results of said investigation and determine if there is a feasible strategy to implement as it's their game. That was the point of putting this in Feedback and Suggestions.
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it's funny that you keep asking people to replicate your "research" by doing their own research in soloQ environment.
If you really want to see if it's the very tunneling that is problem in soloQ or skill variation of players due to MMR being nonexistent, pick 3 teammates you are confident have decent skill in DbD for the test, invite them to lobby with specific rules:
- no voice comms;
- no announcing loadouts
Pretend you have been matched with a decent soloQ team against average killer, play 175 matches and then come back with results.
Because the research you are presenting is literally blaming tunneling instead of what i think is the actual monster of a problem here, and that is terrible matchmaking.
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I'm really failing to see how matchmaking has anything to do with tunneling. Killers will tunnel, whether they're good or bad at the game, they will tunnel at high or low MMR. Survivors find tunneling frustrating and unfun, regardless of their skill level. Even if they take a hit for the tunneled Survivor, their fate is still decided by the Killer's choice, whether they choose to continue the chase with their tunneled target, or start going after the person who tanked the hit.
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I do think matchmaking is absolutely an issue here too, but I also think the majority of the playerbase cannot play vs it. I don't think anyone of most skill levels in solo queue could reasonably expect to play vs a lot of tunneling killers with more oppressive chase powers either. So this seems more nuanced than is being laid out imo.
To say it again since this seems to get lost a lot: I'm not really anti-tunneling or anything like that(op doesn't personally have a problem with it either), but it does seem to harm the game when a lot of players leave or noticeably have a worse time over it.
Also to say it again: if tunneling were somehow removed or made unoptimal, there would definitely need to be some compensation given to killers for this.2 -
I'm not discussing a SWF despite all of your evade the issue; I'm discussing solo queue.Show your games. Whenever people discuss tunnelling they're invariably asked to show their games. So I did (even though this started just to measure how much tunnelling had increased and it was a surprise to see it's effectiveness).
The shoe is now on the other foot; show your games illustrating how solo queue, not SWF, consistently and effectively combat it.
You either can, in which case you're presenting more nuance, or you can't and you're completely wrong with no nuance.
Post edited by TheSubstitute on0 -
This is very true, I feel like some of the weaker regression and hold needs to be buffed to compensate. I mean I'm running Thrilling comboed with Grim and still ending up getting genrushed by coordinated teams, it's absolutely an issue. But at the same time I think the strong gen perks are in a good spot, and wouldn't want them buffed more. I just want more options and strength for more flexibility, so I don't feel like I need Grim-Thrilling on every M1 Killer to stand a chance. And I feel like I'm cheating a bit as Surv when I throw on a green toolbox or the equivalent AND something like Potential Energy, surely gens should not be so easy to hypercharge?
I think if they will not buff gen perks, they need to maybe nerf the effectiveness of some of the toolboxes or some perks? It's absurd you can throw on Hyperfocus or Potential Energy, then also run gen charge reduction perks, then also run a Commodious box with BNP spool and your friends have perks that reduce charges too to have 20 charges, with 10 of those reduced, and it only takes about 50 seconds. No wonder Killers feel stressed and like they need to tunnel!
Reduce the effectiveness of anything above a yellow toolbox on gens, or specialize them more. Surely a toolbox that can push gens hard does not also need to be able to sabotage, and surely a sabo box does not also need to be able to push generators really fast. If not, make it so commodious box has less charges but pushes faster, and sabo boxes do gens about as fast as a brown but have the buffed sabo. Different tools for different goals.
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You have to consider WHY there is tunnelling more now than before. I don't think it has anything to do with wanting a higher kill rate at all, and everything to do with the fact a lot of Killers feel they have no choice because generator regression got nerfed… but generator PROGRESSION on Survivor side wasn't touched. In fact, it was even buffed. So now we have the same issue but in reverse again. It is now currently possible with the right builds to do THREE GENERATORS in one chase even if the Killer plays perfectly, does not hard commit, does not tunnel, does not focus out, and does not do anything incorrect with their power - unless you're an Instant Down Killer like Ghostface or something and the Survs don't see you coming. Even then a good team can punish you.
So of course in light of all that even good Killers fall back on tunnelling. It's the most basic way to get someone out of the game fast when you can functionally start in the first 5 minutes at only 2-3 gens left to go. Like yeah no wonder tunnelling in your games went from 5.6% to 26% - Killers feel they have literally, literally no other option because there really isn't any way to slow that early game down left anymore. And early game is when Survivors are, literally, the strongest since all map resources remain. How exactly do you expect the average Killer to outplay that? They aren't gods.
And as you said, if BHVR thinks this is an issue, they will do something when they find a way to fix it that isn't a straight nerf for one side and buff for the other. But since nobody at BHVR has chimed in yet to state this is an issue, and they never have and likely never will? It's probably not that big an issue, unintended, or as big a problem as you have stated it is in multiple threads.
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You're obviously brand new to the forums and possibly the game. Based on your posts I'm inclined to believe both. That, of course, by its own means nothing. However, if you wish to say 'so and so' is an X main it runs the risk of making you look foolish when you make accusations that don't match up with the facts.
As well, I haven't seen any argument from you that addresses any of the data I presented and instead try to address the actual data and videos I provided with opinions. Can you please actually familiarize yourself with my actual posts and data if you're going to address me on multiple threads?
Post edited by TheSubstitute on1 -
Again to be clear - tunneling is a completely acceptable form of playing the game. It's like saying "Gen rushing is bad and it should be nerfed". No both are completely acceptable ways to play the game and both have counters. Just stop whining about tunneling already, the game is already so easy for survivors, do you really need more help to win? Dozens of pallets. Windows around every turn. Anti-camp. Basekit DT. No more instagrab survivors from hook, the list goes on and on. Stop wasting time doing convoluted analyses and get better at the game.
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I think to combat tunneling theyd have to give something on both ends like penalties for the tunneling, but the killers get stronger in some way so that tunneling becomes much less incentivised. There are people however that arent just tunneling to win faster, they even sit there in your face griefing while they do it, sadly nothing can be done about changing that mindset. And currently a swf is stronger than an average killer, and an killer who tunnels is always stronger than a random group. So more than one thing has to be adjusted somewhere to find the real 60%kill rate balance they are after without killers resorting to tunneling.
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That doesn't address any of the actual issues that I brought up. The pre 6.1 DH, DS, IW, UB meta was also a way to play the game. However, it led to imbalances that got it removed. Tunneling is no different.
I did post 175 games over two years showing a decline in escape rates that was specifically linked to the incidences of tunneling. If you feel it's a skill issue feel free to post a 100 solo queue games or so showing you tackling the issue consistently.
This is a feedback and suggestion thread by the way. Perhaps while you get those games together you could simply let BHVR decide on their own if they want to look into it as I suggested?
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That is one of the items I mentioned in my analysis. If Killers that don't tunnel and camp are at a 56% kill rate overall and the goal is 60% then some Killers might need a buff here and there.
I say some because my data size isn't large enough to make any specific observations about specific Killers. It could be one Killer is fine and the other not.
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Sorry, my quote didn't take on my post for some reason. The post where I said some Killers may need some buffs here and there was the one where I responded to you.
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