Windows of Opportunity needs a nerf
There's a reason why every single survivor use this perk. You can't deny a perk is overpowered when it's part of every single build. When I play killer I automatically know they use it when they run me from pallet to pallet, which is almost all the time, and I assume people who don't have it didn't buy the survivor yet.
A simple range nerf would be enough, IMO this perk should help you find a path when you're being chased, not plan the chase for the 3 next minute with every obstacle of the map. Sure, you can argue "then give up the chase and go find someone else". But maybe you didn't read that every survivor use this perk.
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Doesn't even need a range nerf, it needs to have an activation / deactivation condition.
Something like being injured activates it for 20/25/30 seconds.
Or it goes on a 30/25/20 second cooldown after vaulting a pallet or window.
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That’s why I always have something for blindness. You’re not about to use every pallet and every window, every vault. Nope. Not in this chase
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Thread No 599579347593 regarding windows.
if something is overpowered because people use it often, then we have to nerf Pain-res, pop and corrupt as well, because 95% of games contain at least one or two of those.
WoO is a tool to adjust for a lack of information. Learning every map-tile with every possible pallet spawn AND then not knowing if a teammate dropped it would be overkill for a game, where fun shuld be central and not everyone whants to play comp where i would argue that yu can expext that. As always: main argument is that you could still do that and thus, you are wasting a perkslot.15 -
What do you think people were doing when Kate wasn't a survivor
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It’s like as if they had to learn how to play the game and figure out where the loops are? Oh god. That’s asking too much of a player who got the game now. 🤣
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Sure they still learned, but newcomers/casuals had an even worse time than they do now and would go down even faster (although not by much), leading many people to simply give up on the game before they could learn enough to be able to enjoy the game (not to mention that there was a time when basekit BT and anti-facecamp wasn't a thing and tunnelling was even easier and uncounterable for SoloQ even if it wasn't more common than nowadays). Getting friends to try and keep playing was much harder before.
WoO doesn't make someone magically good at looping, just know where are the deadzones that their teammates likely created, chances are they waste pallets early and every other chases are a non-issue.
People give up on 1st hook enough as it is, no reason to make it worse. BHVR tries to put things in place so that players of all skill level can at least somewhat play the game and bridge the gap between SWF and SoloQ (which is why Kindred but without Killer aura should be basekit imo, HUD info was a great step in the right direction) so Windows has it's place and should remain, especially with ever-changing maps and tiles as well as some amount of rng in map-generation.
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I remember playing a round as skull merchant pre-rework. And this swf brought me to the pallet factory(saw map). They all had windows of opportunity and complained that I made the round take too long meanwhile i had to break literaly every single pallet in the entire pallet factory to start getting hooks because they first thing theyd do is go straight for all the available pallets lol (i still won cuz she was broken at the time) but yea windows of opportunity on a swf abusing a pallet heavy map is something that could use a nerf
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Knowing where the deadzones are is exactly why it's too strong.
This game should not be balanced around SWFs. Killers need survivors to have the opportunity to make mistakes to even have a chance at winning.
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The killrate is high enough on average, even in full 4 man SWFs it's over 50% already (acording to the latest stats) and i doubt it that nerfing windows would magically increase that rate by that much as WoO was "only" used by around 1/3 of players(my guess is that WIndows is less common in full SWFs) and as someone explained above this game has a huge barrier for new players. Even after the initial 5 hour phase of just running in a straight line, you need to LEARN everything. And for that Windows is very nice as you need houndred of hours to remember all possibilities.
And of course the new map philosophy of less pallets, smaller maps, weaker tiles and huge deadzones from the start are already shadow-nerfing WoO constantly. What is WoO doing if the only pallet you get is a 95/05 pallet between two trees like the new standard on haddonfield or the new fun pallets at coldwind? Nothing.5 -
To be fair, that was a very different time. Safe pallets everywhere. Tiles were known, and planning routes was pretty easy to link to others. Sometimes you could use several tiles as one big one if there were fun windows in play and you could do it on the fly in one pass through as long as you recognize the tiles. You didn't need WoO. I don't even think the perk became a thing until a few years ago when the devs started making the maps less safe. Not saying survivors don't get strong setups these days, because I still find some wonky generation but it's nowhere near what it was before. So let's say it how it was.
I've only used WoO twice since coming back. I'd rather use something else, but I see why so many people use it these days. The new tiles are crapola.
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Windows honestly is last thing I consider op. It won't help to survivor who can't loop do it properly anyway. But slight range nerf is welcome, because good survivors can chain loop really well with it.
Otherwise, leave this noob friendly perk alone already, c'mon.
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Windows IMHO promotes really bad habits in regards to looping, makes you predictable, and gives too much info for its uptime. It's critical for new Survivors but it really is too much for experienced ones; they don't really need it, they just use it to autopilot themselves to loops and avoid any possible mistakes in dead zones. Mistakes half the Killer roster need Survivors to make to get downs. It actively can hinder people with info overload, and it makes certain maps even more miserable for both sides, different ones for each.
Make it only active in chase or give it a cooldown and the perk will be fine, balanced, healthy, and perfect in its intended niche.
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What amuses me is I remember saying this perk was underrated and a good beginner tool when Kate first came out and everyone was screaming it was F-tier. Now it's one of the best perks in the game!?
Personally, I think it's mostly in an ok state, and I do like that it gives blindness addons/perks some serious value vs windows users.
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Another balancing could be the perk giving you blind for 10sec when using an obstacle that was highlighted
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Windows is such a new-player friendly perk, as it teaches tile layouts and possible pallet spawns to those willing to learn. It's also very solo queue friendly because they have no way to know what resources have been used up compared to comms. When it comes to the veteran players also using it often it just makes them better. They're able to chain tiles more frequently, and not run into dead zones unless they have to.
So messing around with this perk must be done carefully, maybe just re-adding a range or small cool down. Imo the perk is fine as is though.
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But as been said many time, removing the ability of survivors to do mistakes (vastly) just keep a lot of killer from playing. If you take the most basic killer like Wraith, it needs survivor to do mistakes so he can catch them. Invisibility is nice but it only serve to ambush people, it doesn't really work during a chase where people are aware of you and always next to a window/pallet.
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Its not that strong. There are, of course, braindead megheads who are just playing map-wide osu with yellow, but for the most part it doesnt add much at high level play. A 4 man swf team can just call out which pallets are down, while a solo player needs WoO to see that.
My issue with the perk is that its designed to help survivors learn maps but doesnt actually make you remember anything, and how it automatically gives you optimal pathing. A new player using the perk will get used to always having their path layed out for them and will struggle tremendously without it, and thus always play with 3 perks when they could just learn the game.
I'd like to see it changed in a way that brings back to cooldown for seeing pallets and windows, so you actually need to remember what's going on while letting you know which pallets aren't there even on cooldown. WoO isnt not a strength issue but a game design flaw.I would suggest allowing you to see the auras of broken pallets as well, bring back the cooldown (maybe lower it a bit), but allow the survivor to still see the broken pallets even when the perks cooling down. This would force new players using the perk to take note of which pallets are available and where they are, building good habits for any survivor. It would also help solo players avoid dead zones they had no way of knowing existed.
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Why are y'all sweaty as hell. People being able to see vaults and pallets doesn't make them unable to learn to play.
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Killers cannot rely solely on survs making mistakes, they must also use game sense and their powers to get downs. In the case of Wraith, his cloaked speed allows him to often bodyblock pallets and vaults for instance.
Some tiles are able to be chained together more easily than others, and killers like Wraith can feel that much more than say Wesker, but that's more of a map issue imo. Only the veteran skilled survs at the higher MMR area can consistently take full advantage of problematic tiles, and they (and the super skilled killers who can usually handle them) only make up a small portion of the overall playerbase. And they aren't the primary focus of balancing DBD anyway, the masses and to a much lesser extent newbies are.
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windows is literally fine
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I really like the idea of showing broken pallets as well. It not only shows survs which have been thrown, but where they can possibly spawn in the first place. The better survs will remember that over time and learn.
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Those.... All have been nerfed. Two of them several times.
I think the range on Windows could use a slight nerf.
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Hmmmm, yes. Quite an astute observation you have there old chap.
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Why people still complains about Windows? Is not overpowered, the main reason why is so used is because of SoloQ. There’s no way people can know where the pallets have been used.
Please stop asking for making SoloQ more miserable.
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Again, that's literally the reason it's overpowered.
You aren't supposed to know what pallets have been used 100% of the time - that's map knowledge you need to gain by, y'know, traversing the map and making mental notes.
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So you're saying SoloQ should be hard and miserable while SFW have all that communication without issues?
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The posts are always dead giveaways to users bias.
It's obvious you haven't played Decimated Borgo as survivor.
However, now that the fog has cleared(in maps) WoO usage should die down a bit.
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No, Yoshirama, people are saying that people shouldn't need to rely on perks to do well at a game.
That's true of both sides. You should not need Windows to loop. If you do need it you are crutching, new, or autopiloting when you could be using that slot for something else more useful.
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It was extremely well thought out, planned to perfection, and thoroughly researched. Glad you found it useful. 😜
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No, I'm saying we shouldn't balance around the fact that SWF parties exist.
I play solo plenty and do just fine. I know the maps and tiles, pay attention to what resources have been used, and plan my escape route before I hop on a gen. I still get caught eventually because I make mistakes, but that's literally the point of the game. Windows basically removes your ability to make a mistake because you can simply run from pallet to pallet without ever being at risk.
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Windows is fine. It can even create bad habits among players by not teaching them to maximize use of resources and it doesn't teach them how to connect anything or how to loop a structure properly. It doesn't buff survivor stats and doesn't buff SWF.
For the person who brought up Wraith, either play hit and run or use shadow dance. There are options for pretty much every killer to play vs this perk. Every person running windows means they are less likely to be running DS UB etc1 -
Well, that's your experience, not all players spend too much time in this game to learn every map and every tile
But by that logic, killers shouldn't see generators aura, they should learn the spawn of every gen, right?
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It has always been the design of the game for the survivor to find their objective and anything that can help them, it's survival, not click and collect.
If we take your logic killer should see all obstacles too so they can dodge infinite loop.
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
I see windows of opportunity waste of a perk slot, you should learn the tiles and be observant of your surroundings. I see light born the same way, waste of a perk slot. Be observant and aware of your surroundings. Counter a flash save by looking a different way from the savior or look into the wall
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Yes, waste of a perk slot, that's why it's the #1 perk used by a third of all survivor players.
Lightborn is a requirement vs Flashbangs, as facing a wall doesn't matter and you can be blinded / drop a survivor even after picking them up from a locker. It's currently basekit for me until Flashbangs actually get some meaningful counterplay.
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anti loop killers already destroy average survivors. And you guys want to take away theyr only means to counterplay lol
Hell a killer doesn't even need anti loop. I lose like 90% of my solo q games and everyone has windows.
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Windows does not need to be nerfed it needs to be basekit (and able to be turned on or off) along with kindred. Whenever I say this everyone cries but I will die on that hill. Maybe I wouldn't think this if the maps weren't all being nerfed and the new maps completely killer sided. Sick of people saying windows takes away skill from the game, it does not, it just lets you know what resources you have available, not how to use them efficiently. Main reason I want this though is it will help narrow the gap between solo que and swf.
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You actually think most maps are killer sided?
Haddonfield and Rotten Fields, sure. That's about it.
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I am not saying that Windows is a bad perk. From how I see it if you learned maps tiles and chains you could replace the perk for something else that can be helpful to the team.
If you need to run Lightborn that's fine, but there is nothing wrong with looking around the area after a knock to see if someone will flash save, and slug the survivor. There are other ways to counter/punish survivors that don't require the use of light born
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it's fun because when I play clown (my build is just blind perks) you can 100% tell who plays WOO and who doesnt by the way they just ran into walls when you blind them...
The perk does need an activation time. "When you become injured, Windows of Opportunity activates it for 20/25/30 seconds."
Sadly, survivor mains who can't play without training wheels will always complain and defend it so...
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As soon as they stop letting killers see aura's of generators I'll stop saying windows should be basekit. If it was just "training wheels" I wouldnt see streamers with over 8000 hours using it.
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Yes, because seeing the auras of the things you're trying to patrol / protect and seeing every escape route available to you on the map are totally the same thing.
It's clear you're incredibly biased. I'd recommend playing some killer matches so you can actually get some perspective.
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Sure, rework WoO the moment killers don’t get to see gen auras or hook auras when they down someone. Difference is, killers get that information basekit. Survivors have to use a perk slot.
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Oh my God the killer gets some advantages in a 4v1 game? Completely unfair.
Killers should also have the same movement speed as survivors too, right?
How unfair they also get abilities that can damage survivors.
Honestly they shouldn't even get a weapon either, survivors don't have one after all.
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OMG, survivors can use a perk that gives them some information to help them when being chased. Completely unfair.
Maybe they should start the match on hook. Or they should all be tethered to each other so that the killer doesn’t have to figure out where any of them are. He can chase them all at once.
Yeah, I can play that game too. See how ridiculous it sounds. That’s how it sounds when you did it.
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You missed the part where it's a 4v1 game and survivors are meant to get caught eventually, not run from pallet to pallet with complete safety.
It's not just some information that helps with being chased. It's knowing exactly where they need to run to next with no activation condition or cooldown. That's the problem, and that's what needs to change.
If we want to do an actual comparison, it would be like killers having permanent aura reading on survivors the entire match to always know exactly where they need to go.
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Complete safety? Most pallets aren’t even safe. If you are just mindlessly following survivors into pallets who, as you say are using “training wheels” and not mind gaming the “terrible players” then that sounds like an issue of skill on your end. Why don’t you just say what you actually mean. That you want to win 100% of the time.
That’s what it comes down to. Even your statement shows your entitlement.
“They’re meant to get caught.”No, you have to catch them. Nothing needs to be nerfed, you just need to stop mindlessly walking into pallets. I play about 60/40 survivor and killer, and it makes no difference to me whether somebody uses WoO or not. But that’s probably because I don’t just follow them from pallet to pallet and let them dictate the chase.
Again, if you need to blame your inefficiencies on a perk it speaks volumes that this entire thread is about personal skill issues and the need for 100% victory to feed bruised egos.
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I'm not the one who made the training wheels comment, thanks. Windows of Opportunity would be fine if it was truly a training wheels perk. There's a reason it's the most used perk in the game at all levels of play. The fact that its pick rate is literally 33% and six points above the next used perk should be plenty of indication that it does its job a little too well.
All you're doing is gaslighting without any actual factual information. I mind game plenty, I don't break every pallet, and I hover around that 55-60% win rate as killer. I'm not "unskilled," I'm just objective enough to know when things on both sides are stronger than they should be. If you'd like to compare stats, I'm happy to do so.
All it needs is an activation or cooldown condition. Windows should not always be active.
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