Gen regression speed is a joke and it needs to be buffed.

Thinking you forgot about the myriad of perks that regress large chunks of progress. Besides, your focus should be killing survivors not killing gens.

by not getting ran for the duration of 5 gens at the start

If the game is over in 5 minutes someone was doing something wrong. You say efficient survivors but was that killer efficient? Or just even effective? Killers currently are rewarded via those regression perks and the pressure a survivor on hook generated and the breathing room it can bring.

play chaos shuffle or light out, modes that killer has no perks.

Surprisingly we do well in those. And technically we want to point out two things there. One is that chaos shuffle both sides still have perks, just not chosen. Second, lights out no one has perks and both sides are at a mild disadvantage and the latest one has a big ol target that survivors kept putting on themselves so that goes down fast in the killer's favor.

that means that for every hook you get as killer, you lose -1 gen. 5 hooks = 5 gens done. that's loss for killer. that is not counting the time it takes for killer

A) move away from hook

B) find another survivor to chase

C) hook survivor.

Strange how when we get a hook we dont immediately lose a gen. There are no clean numbers in the trials. For a simple example: you down someone at a hook and see another survivor who has a toolbox. You quickly hook the first and can almost immediately start a chase with the second one. Sure, maybe on occasion that happens but its just as likely to go the other way in the killers favor.

4 player running med-kits, med-kit heal > faster than killer doing all these actions + strong teams OFTEN DON'T HEAL and just rush gens while injured

We see more toolboxes with people trying to rush gens. You seem to think that survivors are always doing this or that but then don't factor in the killer. They leave the sod on the hook while your harrassing another, if they're healthy they last longer, if injured trying to burn through gens they get caught quicker and now you got 2. The killer is in fact a factor on survivors as mentioned below.

The killer being efficient has no impact on survivor being efficient.

Yes. Yes it absolutely does. An efficient killer will always have a majority of survivors occupied till someone is dead. This reduces the survivors efficiency as theres less on the gens. Thats just basic logic. Think of it this way, whats that guy on hook doing?

Survivor efficiency trumps killers. … Killer can only attempt combat survivor efficiency through perks

Also false. Its easier sure, but killers are perfectly able to combat survivor efficiency through sheer brutality [theres probably a better word but we like this one].

that is why they buff base regression which at least buff killer base-kit to defend gens

we're pretty sure they buffed base regression kicks due to implementing the anti-3-gen thing so it would be more fair (unless your thinking about something else that we glossed over).

Did this actually happen? Ruin wouldn't affect you, at all. It doesn't regress blocked gens. It would only do something if a survivor decided to just leave a gen for some reason that wasn't blocked. I can only assume it's to prevent the typical play of 99'ing a gen. That gen is effectively finished and "eats up" the deadlock leaving all the other gens clear. Weird killer.

Corrupt intervention, just walk a few yards over to another gen and start.

Merciless storm is essentially a non-issue on PC, but I hear it's problematic on console controllers…it's strength is when the killer is putting pressure on you while you're on the gen which wouldn't even occur with an afk killer. Even then, it's a once per gen thing.

Deadlock doesn't last very long (it got nerfed)…but granted, this is the biggest time-waster for an afk killer. Not much of an issue if you spread out gens, though. Still…weird killer.

If you guys split up on gens for the first 4 it shouldn't have taken very long, at all. Even with deadlock in play, it only affects one generator at a time. Are you saying the afk killer is the frustration, or the perks? You literally had a no risk\no threat match with the win being handed to you, and you still felt it was frustrating to play…so I'm hoping it's just frustration at the afk killer.

Why did I read it as "Generator speeds need to be buffed."

I luckily saw the "regression" part before I ranted on why the speeds themselves shouldn't be buffed lol.

Both of which were quite unbalanced.

One thing I was happy to see BHVR is adding in 2v8 is the rubberbanding mechanic for gen progression. As much as some people hate the idea, I think it would be very healthy for the game. If they can make a system that works, it could be added to the main game, and issues with gen progression/regression would be eased somewhat. Not to mention that the system would really only benefit weaker killers and solo queue teams.

i cannot really believe that we are arguing whether killer viability to slow the game down base-kit is valid or too weak. Just look video's math. It takes 6 minutes to regress a generator. it is laughably bad. you have to playing dbd matches that last 40 minutes for over-time regression to work. DBD isn't a 40 minute game. Only in dbd would we ever argue whether 6 minute regression is balanced…. /shrug. It is like arguing whether a 6 minute cooldown for pressing R skill in league of legends is balanced.

Previously, i was against buffing killer gen-regression because 3 gen could potentially be too strong. Well that potentially became a reality so much so that dev needed to change some base-kit rules of the game to fix this problem. Now that 3 gen are fair and balanced, Killer need MAJOR buffs to regression. 5% regression IS NOT enough. In practice, it would be nice if killer got rewarded for doing a variety of actions that rewarded spreading pressure and playing well as killer but before we even consider killer being rewarded in many ways to trigger regression, regression itself needs to be rewarding. it is not rewarding and i don't think many killer will agree that 4x slower regression is well-balanced.

While it's not easy, while it may not be fun, while whatever you want to believe, many killers can infact get by with the current base kick and regression that follows.

Yeah vs bad/inefficient play.

It takes 6 minutes basekit, but then you have many MANY killers stacking slowdown after regression after you, guessed it, more slowgresson. When the killer is efficient or better than the survivors, what happens when these slowdowns are added to the basekit?

If the killer is dominating chase after chase… the game isn't suppose to be close. the killer is suppose to win. not get draws or losses as i refer to them or just barely win.

Second, as many like us have stated, your goal is to kill survivors not gens. If you're harassing survivors, incapacitating them, yada yada it takes them longer to do gens meaning more time to keep that going.

That is literally my post. If killer plays fairely, ends chases quickly, the survivor objective is faster than the killer. The time it takes to objective has low variance. Like the difference is winning game in 4 minutes if killer is afk standing still vs 6 minutes with killer applying pressure. the game needs more variance for killer.

that is also why killer often dislike gen speed perks because they add more variance to survivor's gen time. you know… like why does survivor need 3 minute gens when afk and 5 minute gens when 4 minute afk/6 minutes is already too fast. those speed perk are only balanced if killer has gen defence perks in which case survivor is using perks to counter killer perks which many killer dislike that part as well but that is another story.

If it is a joke, why not playing without four slowdowns and using something thats not a joke? We had the prophecies that after the latest nerfs all those perks are dead. But we still see the same old perks being used. With the same kill rates. And we still have the same situation like before, that say: people are completely reliant on those perks cause they dont nkow how to play without them.

you just need be efficient on generators and survivor the minimum amount of time for each chase to succeed.

It might be your wording thats throwing us off but would that not be a survivor outplaying the killer? Cause really what else do you call that…

The variance killers provide varies on the player. There's no set level, some are able to provide enough to keep the survivors inefficient enough to win, others no. It's a human element in the mix on both sides.

The way killer currently deal with gen speeds is by tunneling.

Note that's how some (ok probably many) deal with it but how they deal with it doesn't translate as necessary and thats where we are arguing here. We don't need some in-depth tunnel definition as tunneling is not always efficient (ex: if you stay near a hook to tunnel survivors can do gens unimpeeded. The killer is being inefficient. ex2: If the killer is chasing someone across the map and drops that chase as soon as the unhook happens, but cant find the unhooked because they were smart enough to move first, then that's also the killer being inefficient. Ex3: trying to tunnel someone whos actually better than them).

If we are to promote killer to not tunnel survivors for pressure

This is a in general thing but we are genuinely curious as to why people think tunneling pressures the whole team. Until that survivor is dead, your only pressuring that sole survivor, anyone else in that crossfire is being inefficient (admittedly for a decent reason of trying to help a teammate). Every other survivor can pick and choose what gen to finish till the tunneled is dead.

 If we are to promote killer to not tunnel survivors for pressure, the killer needs to have rewards and incentives to not tunnel and spread hooks at base-kit. this means that killer needs base-kit gen regression and game-delay rewards to not need these strategy to win.

Hate to break it to ya (ok not really) but those two things do not equal out. Specifically pointing at:

the killer needs to have rewards and incentives to not tunnel and spread hooks at base-kit

and

this means that killer needs base-kit gen regression and game-delay rewards to not need these strategy to win.

First, unless its borderline broken rewards or practically impossible to do, many killers will tunnel because its easy to do and often rewards them with dead survivors or salt depending on what that particular killer is in the mood for.

Second, rewards do not have to be regression or game-delay (though we wouldn't mind game-delay). Could be game speed up via something like everyones exposed. This is a literal split second thought, but hopefully the point stands.

that is why video is talking about the numbers and how these number should be improved to promote killer for playing in more interesting/engaging play-style.

We're going to repeat the following:

It takes 6 minutes basekit, but then you have many MANY killers stacking slowdown after regression after you, guessed it, more slowgresson. When the killer is efficient or better than the survivors, what happens when these slowdowns are added to the basekit?

this is a in general thing but we are genuinely curious as to why people think tunneling pressures the whole team. Until that survivor is dead, your only pressuring that sole survivor, anyone else in that crossfire is being inefficient (admittedly for a decent reason of trying to help a teammate). Every other survivor can pick and choose what gen to finish till the tunneled is dead.

I am going to use an analogy to explain this. DBD survivor teams for killer is like house of cards. Ever heard of the saying, 'A chain is as strong as its weakest link". if you pull the bottom card away from house of cards, the house of cards falls. that is what tunneling is in dbd. it is pulling the bottom card of the house so that house fall down. the house of cards being the survivor team in dbd. Not tunneling in dbd is like pulling top cards of house of cards. Eventually the house of cards fall down if you pull enough top cards but it is least efficient way to drop the house of cards.

a large part of killer is taking risks at the correct time and getting away with said risk. everything you do as killer is a risk that can backfire. as a result, there is no full proof one size fits all that can be applied to every game.

Second, rewards do not have to be regression or game-delay (though we wouldn't mind game-delay). Could be game speed up via something like everyones exposed. This is a literal split second thought, but hopefully the point stands.

Sure, you can give every killer a mechanic where every time a survivor heals for 2 complete health-states, the killer can instant down a survivor by any mean. that is just weird though.

We're going to repeat the following:

It takes 6 minutes basekit, but then you have many MANY killers stacking slowdown after regression after you, guessed it, more slowgresson. When the killer is efficient or better than the survivors, what happens when these slowdowns are added to the basekit?

if a killer regression is increased and killers continue to use regression, they will have super game-delay. survivor can counter super-game delay with generator repair perks. It is like asking, what happens if survivors receive borrow time after unhooking for 60 seconds and they use Lithe+Off the record+Decisive strike. The survivor gets super anti-tunneling if the killer tunnels off-hook. Do you think a killer will ever dream to tunnel off-hook when the survivor is moving 10% faster for 60 seconds and has all these extra form of protection? Survivor may still use anti-tunnel perks like Off the record to combat soft-tunneling. traditionally Distortion used to block aura reading for survivor to prevent them from being soft-tunneled out of the game but in just few days/weeks, Distortion will be nerfed and only form of aura immunity that is reliable long enough will be off the record. Survivors will continue to use exhaustion perks and decisive strike will still be decisive strike.

So the answer to your question is, the game plays as it does now with few modifications to the base game. Killer will have to hard-tunnel less and soft-tunnel more to win. they might one day nerf soft-tunneling however soft-tunneling might not get changed because less killer will see need to soft-tunnel if their regression/game delay is rewarding when the killer chases all 4 survivors and wins. the result is that killer impact on winning chases will have greater impact on survivor's ability to complete the objective then what it is currently. Survivors will need to play a lot better to escape.

We understand the house of cards analogy but at the same time we're unsure how true that holds in this game. We've been able to get 3 out (usually swf but occasionally solo) every so often so long as everyone else is competent enough [maybe match making screwed up somewhere but this is a passing thought]. If nothing else we see it like janga with tunneling picking a block blind.

Everything both sides do is a calculated risk. For killer it is usually more punishing should they screw it up, but thats the game. Both sides taking risks to try and "win" [everyone's condition varies hence the quotes].

as a result, there is no full proof one size fits all that can be applied to every game.

Then tell us why you previously tried to apply math for this little show?:

as i said, math is that if you just co-op every gen for 52 seconds and killer downs every survivor in 45-60 seconds, 5 hook = 5 gens

either way, moving along

Sure, you can give every killer a mechanic where every time a survivor heals for 2 complete health-states, the killer can instant down a survivor by any mean. that is just weird though.

Shrug To each their own, we'd prefer weird and fun compared to same ol same old. The point is that it doesn't necessarily have to be regression or stalling the gens.

if a killer regression is increased and killers continue to use regression, they will have super game-delay. survivor can counter super-game delay with generator repair perks.

And what will everyone see each and every game? Survivors bringing gen repair perks each and every game, which in turn causes more killers to bring slowdown ad infimum. We used to see stacked slowdown after slowdown each and every game before we went asleep, when we woke up there was bloody variety on both sides, we dont want that changed. Also:

Do you think a killer will ever dream to tunnel off-hook when the survivor is moving 10% faster for 60 seconds

quite frankly we've seen some try…they don't count for competent nor have any impact on our discussion but we're throwing that there…[also isn't it 30?]

You keep either removing or ignoring the human element to this. Ignoring the fact you keep insisting its mandatory, this hinges a lot on killers tunneling less. As long as it's perceived as the easiest path to bodies or salt, people will tunnel. We've seen people tunnel during the eruption era (and others have also claimed to see it during this time) where slowdowns were arguably the strongest (if not most annoying) and the killer was rewarded (while not basekit) greatly for doing well in chases (ignoring those that camped a handful of gens). This is an extreme example but it is proof to us that people will tunnel should they wish, regardless of regression. While it currently isn't as extreme as that example and we can not speak for everyone, to us killers are rewarded enough atm and don't need more.

I understand this concern, but buffing base regression speed might be a bit overkill.

Actually, in the video itself, Ardetha (the video's creator) mentioned a solution: buffing the perks back to their previous states.

Ruin, Call of Brine and Overcharge should all have 200% regression speed, with CoB and Overbrine both having a condition that the speed cannot go over 200%, making sure that Overbrine doesn't come back.

To be frank it is a disadvantage if you're going to compare using them or not as those perks buy time. We're going to reiterate that it's not easy to do, but it's very much possible to win against efficient survivors without these.

I don't enjoy running gen defence on killers.

Then don't? You may or may not lose for a bit until you adapt but then you eventually get to the point above.

On average though, most...

Shall we repeat how killers are not reliant on slowdown? (can't speak for players, but the role isn't) It's a similar vein for survivors, they don't need to run those things to be effective, but it helps. If you think killers need more that's all well and good but we don't believe that killers need more regression.

I still think any perks that change the speed of gens (whether positive or negative) should be eliminated, have kicks removed, and have gens automatically regress when not being worked on. That way, gen speeds are consistent and easier to balance around. Killers can't regress dump a gen any more, but survivors can't just speed them and finish a gen in under 30 seconds anymore (which is literally possible currently). Toolboxes might still be an issue, however.

'cause it's always a skill issue, right. But this, of course, applies only for killers, as usual.

There's no point in arguing here, and btw: I'm against regression buff of any kind.

HF next.

PS: oh, I forgot: never EVER mentioned about running 4 slowdowns as a forced choice. Stop putting words in my mouth, thanks.

Can't see the 4 slowdowns in any of my posts, I'm sorry. Running slowdowns is different from running 4 slowdowns, and, I repeat myself, I never say that.

Yet DeBecker was talking about running 4 specifically, and you respond. And if you wish to go that super technical route, we do not see them claim that you specified 4 slowdowns nor did you specify you were talking about anything less than 4 slowdowns.

oh, I forgot: never EVER mentioned about running 4 slowdowns as a forced choice. Stop putting words in my mouth, thanks.