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Please Nerf Killers
Comments
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No, it's not. Playing sweaty, or playing against someone sweaty, is not fun. That has nothing to do with horror. If anything being matched with a sweat lord is less horrific, because there's no suspense; you know it's going to be a 4k 30 seconds into the match when the first Pain Res and kobe attempt happen.
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The devs target a >60% kill rate; the game is killer sided by design.
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(because game is basically balanced based on this kind of matchmaking and current MMR system)
Dbd's mmr is really not like that, today for example I played against 4 people with yellow perks, hidding in bushes mid chase, afraid of my presence in the other side of the Map, rarely doing gens etc, i don't think I should be playing against them at all, they probably had like, less than 100 hours
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Having sunk around 100 more hours into the game over the past 3 weeks or so, playing both sides pretty equally has made me realize that the killer side is pretty overtuned. Especially the newer killers like Dracula and Vecna. Any semi-decent player could easily 3-4K every round if they set their mind to it. The fact that you have a plethora of killer powers available on relatively short cooldowns - Dracula's bat-form + Hellfire, Vecna's skill rotation and the reworked Knight's guards being notable entries here.
There is too little counterplay available for survivors to deal with these, unless the killer is (sorry to say it) god-awful at the game.Not to mention all the aura reading that is available. Do we really need any more of it, aside from one or two perks per side that grants/enhances it?
As for survivors, the game is clearly catered towards 4-man teams, where you can co-ordinate between perk builds, and strategize on the fly, depending on who runs the killer. Remember, the strongest survivor perk in the game is called Discord.
I play mostly duo or solo, so I get to see the side where the majority of players end up. It is not pretty to say the least. Often times we get matched with teammates who hides edgemap instead of being on objectives, while I am often the one running the killer. Few are willing to take chase, or trading hook-stages when necessary. That is just how it plays for most of the time. The few times I (and my duo) get competent teammates, it often ends in a 3-4 man escape, and I am not afraid of sacrificing myself for the team, if it means that they will escape.
Playing both sides however has also made me obvious to these facts:
- Most maps are too small, and killers have too easy of a time patrolling between a 3-4 generator area.
- Not enough "safe" loops on certain maps (Coldwind and Haddonfield being the worst offenders)
- Solo survivors needs more tools to help them, like a buff to self-healing (since you are often spending too much time looking for other survivors for help)
- Aura reading has gone off the rails, and is far too available, especially on the killer side.
- Certain killers needs some love though, but the majority is in a good, or too strong of a spot.
- Survivors are too harshly punished for making mistakes. They have to play the game near perfectly to win.
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That's what they do. They pretend that they're playing 2 different games, 1 where they're hiding and chest searching not doing anything, and 1 where the killer's always sweating super hard. And they want the devs to reach over to this other game and take away stuff from the killers, so that they can play chill scot-free in their own little world.
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What are you talking about. Killer players are so delusional, its like a psychosis, they refuse to admit the game is killer sided even though the freakong devs say it is.
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Love it when there is a 550% buff to BP put in for offerings the killer decides to end the game in 2-3 min so he gets 120k+ and survivors ger 15k if they are lucky.
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The devs even buy into this delusion, as they revealed in their last stream. They disagree with the idea that if the killer's playing really well, and the survivors are not, that the killer should snowball. They will be introducing a mechanic, maybe just in 2v8 but maybe into the main game later, where the gens speed up after a hook and only slow down after a gen gets done. Like Tru3 has been saying, this is all about orchestrating a forced outcome of draws for the killer, no matter how well they play.
I've reframed DBD into terms where, if we rank players as 1-10 star players, killers always need to be 2 stars higher than the survivors to win, otherwise survivors win by default. A 6 killer beats a 4 survivor team. A 6 killer gets beaten by a 6 survivor team. Because the killer has to play so much better than the survivors to beat them. But this also means that at a certain point, killers will face a caliber where winning literally becomes an impossibility. An 8 team of survivors is the highest caliber a killer can beat, and that's assuming they're a 10. But if the survivors are a 9 or a 10, they literally can't be beat without throwing the match or without comical levels of rotten luck. We're talking SWF who just don't go down, because every time they come close, when they're not shift W'ing or pre-dropping, a random teammate comes in just in the nick of time for a body block. Solo can almost reach that level as well; nothing stopping them except MMR not giving them equally skilled teammates.
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People like to feel like they are accomplishing something due to their skill and not outside factors like horrible one sided balancing.
They have to tell themselves that the game is balanced or survivor sided so they can feel validated when they play.
Even though every statistic from the dbd developers or third party websites like nightlight.gg say it is overwhelmingly killer sided. They will even do mental gymnastics and say things like 60% of survivors killed is balanced because mY pOwEr RoLe.
Ignorance is bliss.
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Dawg what are you talking about? I have played both sides for four years now. Mostly survivor as of recent. Elaborate on how this game is killer sided and don’t use the quote of the devs to justify it. One time they said old object wasn’t a good perk because of its “low escape rate”.
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That's what so many people don't understand. These radical survivor mains claim that they're just casual gamers, wanting chill games, not really caring about winning. Yet they complain when the killer sweats (against even them, mind you), and don't like losing, and thus ask that this and that killer thing gets nerfed. It's the craziest, most oxymoronic thing.
If you have the nerve to talk about balance, you are not casual, so you shouldn't get the copout in arguments: "I just care about fun/playing chill." And if you're complaining about stuff like Wraith, Ghost Face, BBQ, "the gen kick meta," then you're not a sweaty player either (to complain about those things, you must not be trying very hard). You're something in-between; that's where a majority of players are at. And SWF does this especially, always demonizing the proposition of a gen debuff to their premade party. And that's a whole separate discussion, but it just shows the delusion of having whatever balance changes you want happen, and denying the equivalent to the other role, even when you have no street cred and certainly no desire to strategize or improve at the game.
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i didn't know 50% winrate means game is killer sided
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Where did you get the 50% from?
I thought at most, a skilled SWF team had around 44-46% win-rate.
Solo/duo/trio is sitting at around 39-40%3 -
So? Utter incompetence is no valid reason to nerf the opponents.
Just find good players and play together.
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Have you checked the actual stats? Because it may be your personal experience but it's far from the truth.
edit: as usual, the "Quote" button failed to quote. I'm fed up with this bug. I can't even be bothered to remember who I'm replying to.
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If that mechanic ever makes it into the main game, I'll definitively quit.
I'm already dodging the next 2vs8 because of it.
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as i already said, 5 outcomes possible outcomes for killer, each represents 20% portion, 60% killrate = 2l on average.
2k is considered as tie for killer MMR, meaning average match for killer ends as a tie.
The reason why this can't exactly apply to survivors too is because of asymmetric nature of the game and because surv escape rate is calculated on individual level (since MMR system counts individual escape as a win)
However, if we exclude every single foreign factor from stats (hook suicides, griefers) and if we had more strict matchmaking, these numbers for killer would go significantly. Game is basically balanced around current matchmaking system.
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Took me a while to see it's a necro.
Oh the irony of speaking of ignorance …
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You should play killer to understand how it feels to play killer. Then you'll gain new perspective and become better.
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This! Which is sad to see after 8 years
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Majority of the killers in this game are still living under the illusion that regression builds are the only thing that works for all killers. It's not. Build that don't require Regression are for experienced players who actually looks at the killer they use and use builds that actually synergizes with their power. Gen regression quad slowdown builds are for the players that don't truly know how to play their killer, that don't know how to create their own pressure and create their own slowdown.
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This ignores the survivor perspective, as usual. Kill rate is set to be between a win and a tie for killers. Kill rate is set to be a loss most of the time for suvivors (if you buy the "4 1v1s" framing) or between a tie and a loss (if you recognize that this is a team game).
In other words, it you are winning 50% of the time in a game that allows ties, you are winning way more than you lose, and the game is tilted in your favor. Take the Premier League, for example; of 20 teams, only 5 have a win rate better than 50%. Would you argue those top 5 teams have the same chance of winning as the other 15 teams? Of course not. They have an advantage.
Post edited by notstarboard on1 -
That's.... you're onto something here.
The bloodpoint gains for survivors should be increased.
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you are comparing apples and oranges.
First of all, DbD isn't a 4v4 game, it's 1v4.
Second, killrates are more reliable for game balance because winrates are much easier to determine through them than through escape rates, which are counted on individual level. This means that escape rate has nothing with collective escape rate, but on an individual rate, because MMR points system doesn't recognize collective escapes (you can even see a clear proof on sites like Dead By Stats). A little bit of research is not something to be afraid of :)
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This I really wanna stop playing this but everytime I too get suckered by some new rift pass else this patch nearly did made me hit Uninstall.
I am really seeking games that will still keep my stream going cause while dbd got me to where am at, am just really done with it coupled with the facts all my dear swfs has moved on.
I rarely if lucky can get a 4 going but with only 3 remaining friends but those friends are in the uk and am us combine with how my job schedule tend to be its a miracle we may get to play and even then games are 95% bad. I wish people ( Not you) keep thinking swf still has chance. Not everyone is Ayrun, JRM or CapJam people.
Post edited by buggybug on4 -
Self Report. Just try to get better at survivor
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No, I am not. A 50% win rate for one side in a game that has ties means the game is fundamentally not fair.
If you average all individual escape rates you obviously get the overall escape rate (i.e. 1 - kill rate). So, not only are individual and collective escape rates related, but they are exactly the same when averaged over the player base.
If we take the MMR logic for wins and losses and assume a 60-65% kill rate translates into a ~50% win rate for killer, we can say that the percentage of losses and ties for the killer add up to ~50%. For survivor using MMR's "four individual 1v1s" logic, though, the rate of losses is 60-65% (the kill rate) and the rate of wins is only 35-40% (1 - kill rate). If you prefer to think about this as a team game, which it is, we can't say the exact win rate for the survivors since we don't know the rate of ties, but we can say that survivors' wins and ties add up to 50% (1 - killer win rate; if you treat survivors as a team, survivors lose when the killer wins).
In either paradigm (survivor team vs. killer team, or 4x individual survivor vs. individual killer), if you average over all matches:
- The killer wins more than they lose
- Survivors lose more than they win
- The killer wins more often than survivors win
- Survivors lose more often than the killer loses
If you agree with this, you should also agree that the game is killer sided by design.
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you going to give us a reason why? Nerf everyone why dont’cha. Cause pig and Freddy are just as problematic as nurse and blight
I say learn the game, killer isn’t overpowered it’s an asymmetric game, killer is meant to be stronger then survivor, that’s why there is 4.
Every killer is different and if you can’t handle not winning play another game, everyone has a chance to win and if you can’t see that then play a single player.
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"Can't handle not winning" is rich coming from the side that demanded mmr changes to enable 100's long winstreaks, and wants the game balanced in a lopsided way.
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I never said that. I’m saying that killer is going to be stronger in a 1v1, and that you won’t win 100%. No one will. It’s just how it goes
I don’t expect to hit every shot as slinger and I don’t expect to lead a 2 gen chase as survivor.
the reality is both sides need to understand they are not the most important. Everyone deserves a fair gameThe op didn’t state why or what needs to be changed, and implied every killer is over powered, which is false. Most killers are alright and just need basic counter play, nurse and blight are hard to play against, Billy is rather hard, but that doesn’t mean nerf the entire side when there are killers like Freddy and pig, who are weaker.
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Course habibi 🖤
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60% kill rates are unfair, and have led directly to survivors giving up early in matches. Because most of the time, a single mistake early in the match results in a 3-4k at 2-3 gens. Shrunken maps with nothing to loop limit any ability to prevent being tunneled or have a good chase to enable the team to regain momentum. This leads to survivors feeling like they have no agency in the outcome of the match, and they are mostly correct.
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Survivors are at the disadvantage because there are four survivors, and most of the time the 3-4k at 3 gens are because of mistakes from soloq players, instead of nerfing killer buff soloq.
60% means 16/40 survivors escape, but that is a part of killer, the win for a killer is 3k and a win for survivor is just escaping, with the team or alone.
Most maps now have the same loops, the dungeon map is 100% survivor sided, most new maps are 50-50, and the old ones are biased but it’s not always to killers,
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A 60% kill rate is NOT a 60% win rate, it would average out to something like 2.5 kills, meaning draws are just as common as a 3k win. You're not even considering what the percentage actually means in game terms and instead using an "out of 100%" mindset which is inherently wrong and interpreting the data wrong. There's too many player factors to translate it to a direct win rate (hook suicide, friendly killers etc etc). Remember the game is asymetical, there arent even teams for judging a straight 50/50 balance.
This assumes players can actually play competently against each other and not survivors being blatently bad or doing dumb things which get them killed and snowball the game (which is often the case) because balancing for variable player skill is impossible.
BHVR: "The kill rate is an average, not a guarantee. You might kill 4 survivors one match and 0 the next, but that'll still average out to 50%"
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Ahlan was sahlan ya habibiti
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I'm not wasting time refuting this killer main math again. It's already been done multiple times even in this thread.
What is not in dispute is since the devs moved their balance philosophy to unfairly favor killers (yes dying 60% of the time on average is unfair in a supposedly balanced pvp game, and its much worse than that for solo queue and with DCs included), the experience for survivor has become significantly worse. But sure, keep blaming the side that is currently the punching bags for "muh 500 Blight winstreak" for giving up instead of addressing an increasingly pervasive balance problem.
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Demogorgon fading from existence because they got a 10% recovery speed buff half a year ago:
(Just now realized this was a thread that got necro'd by another user but I might as well have some fun with it.)
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I never said a 60% kill rate was a 60% win rate - it very likely isn't - and I have only ever spoken about averages over all matches in my comments. I said that a ~50% win rate in a game with ties means that that side has an advantage. Consider reading my other comments in this thread below the one you replied to.
There has never been any credible data-based argument that kill rates are massively inflated. By the devs' own admission they are balancing around a 60-65% kill rate. The devs also said Skull Merchant's 70% kill rate would only have dropped to 68% without hook suicides. That is signal enough that kill rates are pretty representative of the actual balance of the game; giving up, farming, sandbagging, memeing, etc. might shift the recorded kill rate a bit from what it could be in the land of statistical sunshine and rainbows where everyone just plays the video game "normally", but there's little chance that effect is strong enough to make this game survivor sided.
From what I have read, and my best guess from anecdotal experience, there has been an increase in hook suicides over the past several weeks, but our last kill rate stat dump is like 8 months old, so any potential kill rate spike now would not be a reason to question those numbers. I'd guess that kill rates are higher now than the ~58% they were in February and that most of that increase is due to hook suicides.
An asymmetrical game should still be balanced. Asymmetrical just implies that the sides don't have the same abilities and such, not that one side must win more often.
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killrs dont need nerf survs need more bloodpoint gain. thats all. then even losing feels ok. dunno why devs not do that :(
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Gamers of DBD really asking to be trained like dogs to endure a whole lot of BS with the reward being nothing over and over again.
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silly comment since no matter how good you are killers are 100% more effective than survivors, you can’t even escape chase now since predator just gives another aura reveal.. survivors have 4 perks which are half the effectiveness of killer perks.. plus killers have add one which are essentially perks, plus they have powers, plus speed boosts.. the game is designed to make sure you die - the problem currently is games are averaging 3-4 minutes because the killer buffs and survivor nerfs make it impossible to play. It’s not a game anymore. 80% of my games 3 are on the floor in the first 90 seconds because killers just slug quick 4ks
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You must have never had a good team. A good team can wreck a killer
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They just need a ranked mode that offers like 3x more bps then so casual can stay casual and sweats can stay with sweats
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