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We should address the ACTUAL problem with Slugging
To get to the point quickly, the problem of Slugging is actually quite simple...
A slugged player loses all player agency.
There is a principle held in all game design, be it board games, video games or even playground games. You should never take away players agency. This is why snakes and ladders, tic tac toe and other games like it are bad games... there is no player agency; there are often no decisions to make, or your decisions are largely dictate for you.
This is the real issue of Slugging, and what should actually be being addressed in discussions around it. A slugged player can only recover, or crawl around... there is nothing else they can do, they have no agency from this point in the match onwards until someone else picks them up for either side.
Even if the options are all unfavourable, that's fine. If a player still has things they can do and decisions to make, even at a significant disadvantage, Slugging is no longer anywhere near as much of a problem because the player still has agency.
An example Solution
If I were to go nuts with this point, here is a list of actions that could be added to basekit to the dying state.
- Survivors in the dying state can interact with chests.
- Survivors in the dying state can swap items on the floor/in chests.
- Survivors in the dying state can use keys and maps, both for reading auras.
- Survivors in the dying state can use keys to open hatch.
- Survivors in the dying state can interact with totems taking 10 seconds to pull themselves up to support themselves, and cleanse the totem with a 30% action penalty. Note: Survivor is still in the dying state.
- Survivors in the dying state can interact with a generator, taking 10 seconds to pull themselves up to support themselves on the generator and allowing them to repair the generator at a 30% action penalty. Note: Survivor is still in the dying state.
- A Survivor that has recovered to 95% or more in the dying state can press the rush button to move 50% faster, bleed out 50% faster, and make 50% more noise.
- EDIT: Performing a conspicuous action from the dying state resets wiggle progress.
We can argue about which of these should make the cut and what else could be considered for inclusion, but the point is a player who is slugged should have player agency and decisions to make beyond recover or wait to be picked up.
Comments
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I did not expect this type of suggestions and viewpoint. I like all your suggestions and they are very creative.
- Why not?
- Would be very nice
- 4.Not quite useful but okey
5. /6. Maybe useful in some situations. I like it
7 Definitely, we need that, but I wouldn’t make it require 95%. I suggested something similar too. It would also finally help with slugging for the 4K.
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Thanks! 'preciate it! 😁
7. Definitely, we need that, but I wouldn’t make it require 95%. I suggested something similar too. It would also finally help with slugging for the 4K.
Well, to remove the 95% requirement, there would need to be a much bleedout penalty; you don't really want a situation where taking the 50% crawl speed is pretty much always the best choice, it would need to come with a greater risk vs. reward.... but sure that could work fine too 😁
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I thought this would be another basekit unbreakable post, but I'm pleasantly surprised to see good suggestions! I like how none of the options are gamebreaking or really turn the tide of a match while still giving a downed survivor something vaguely useful to do.
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Cheers my guy! I'm happy to... disappoint? On the Unbreakable side of things... 😅
I'd really like to see the art team do some new cool animations of survivors whimpering and struggling to repair a gen after dragging themselves to it... Even just cinematically, it'd be awesome 😁
The one I haven't suggested is gate... I'm still mulling over that one if it would be workable or not...
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I like 3 and 7
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please, just please no more basekit additions to the survivor kit because it's absolutely the wrong way to deal with slugging as a whole, and generaly basekit additions to the kit in a way to deal with strategies better are awful direction to go along.
To understand why there is a problem with slugging being so rampant, we need to understand the reason behind it being so rampant. I made a thread on that topic:
Let's once think about pushing the game into the right direction, not further dragging it into amore and more unhealthy state.
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How exactly are any of the suggestions I've listed thus far capable of being abused to bully the killer?
Every single option here still leaves the survivor unable to do anything capable of "bullying" the killer. They can't sabo, they can't pallet stun, they can't blind, they can't body block… they even have incentives to crawl out from under a pallet to try and complete key objectives. Every more productive option I've listed like totems and gens are conspicuous actions, which disables Decisive Strike so can't bully that way either, and between the slow crawling and big penalties to even start progressing objectives, let alone the attached slowdown, you're always better to recover and/or get picked up…
The only conceivable argument I can think of is if we're worried about slugged survivors forcing a killer to pick them up by doing gens/totems, you could easily make the argument to lock these features behind being at 95% recovery first, as if the survivor has to recover enough to be able to function to a basic degree first.
Suicide on Hook is already rampant… Why would you prefer/provide another option for more survivors to quit the game, rather than introduce mechanisms to allow the game to keep going?
Why not address both issues rather than discount one problem by masking it with another? Make hooking more appealing AND allow slugged players to still have agency but heavily hindered seems like a better state of health overall, does it not?
Currently you've just stated it's unhealthy, and said hooks need to be punished less. As described above, there is nothing listed here that is at all preferable for a survivor being slugged, they are significantly less efficient in every single way… and slugging players is still a perfectly valid method of slowing down the survivor team significantly with this suggestion.
If you want to say slugged players shouldn't have agency and it's a problem for the game that survivors have additional actions they can take while slugged but at a heavily hindered rate, you'll need to explain what exactly it is that makes it unhealthy.
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When you only have it available at 95% you can almost never use it. I think bleeding out faster and being louder are fair trades for crawling a bit faster. Maybe it should not be available at 0% but like 30% or so?
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That's a fair point, if it were me I'd go for a nice neat 50% myself. Countering slugging should still be primarily a team thing, but if your team won't or can't get to you, taking 15s to "recover" first and then getting the ability to do more complex actions seems reasonable.
Also dat Tenacity value 🤪
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Instead of totems I say fences,trees,lockers walls would be better self pick up, imagine a survivor trying to use fragile tiny bones to pick themselves up it be funny lol.
All good points in all, I still don't understand why also ub base but only for the last 2 survivors and let them get up after one min which am sure one min to recover should be fine even 2mins would be ok.
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How exactly are any of the suggestions I've listed thus far capable of being abused to bully the killer?
Every single option here still leaves the survivor unable to do anything capable of "bullying" the killer. They can't sabo, they can't pallet stun, they can't blind, they can't body block… they even have incentives to crawl out from under a pallet to try and complete key objectives. Every more productive option I've listed like totems and gens are conspicuous actions, which disables Decisive Strike so can't bully that way either, and between the slow crawling and big penalties to even start progressing objectives, let alone the attached slowdown, you're always better to recover and/or get picked up…
i don't care about such thing as "bullying" killer at all, i'm talking about overall making another basekit change that exclusively suits one side without looking at what the source of problem is.
Suicide on Hook is already rampant… Why would you prefer/provide another option for more survivors to quit the game, rather than introduce mechanisms to allow the game to keep going?
it is, but for completely different reasons.
Why not address both issues rather than discount one problem by masking it with another? Make hooking more appealing AND allow slugged players to still have agency but heavily hindered seems like a better state of health overall, does it not?
if we want to address both issues, we should first look at the very source of problem. Make hooking more appealing, wait to see how intense slugging becomes after and then, if problem with slugging still isn't fixed, advance to addressing it.
Currently you've just stated it's unhealthy, and said hooks need to be punished less. As described above, there is nothing listed here that is at all preferable for a survivor being slugged, they are significantly less efficient in every single way… and slugging players is still a perfectly valid method of slowing down the survivor team significantly with this suggestion.
gen repair, even at lower speed, is a big no, as well as gate opening while being slugged, totem cleansing too.
If you want to say slugged players shouldn't have agency and it's a problem for the game that survivors have additional actions they can take while slugged but at a heavily hindered rate, you'll need to explain what exactly it is that makes it unhealthy.
the very mindset of average survivor player is what would make it unhealthy, i've already seen quite a lot people getting mad at others for pointing out problems with slugging and it's relations with hooking. One dude posted it on twitter and mass of people kept commenting stuff like
"shouldn't bigger challenge be more fun"
"skill issue"
"we deserve to have something against toxic killers" etc.
People have been extremely spoiled and they don't want any solution that will benefit health of the game for both sides, they just want that side they play gets benefits.
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if we want to address both issues, we should first look at the very source of problem. Make hooking more appealing, wait to see how intense slugging becomes after and then, if problem with slugging still isn't fixed, advance to addressing it.
I'm not trying to solve fact slugging is rampant now. It's always been something that is a problem where the killer tries to slug the whole team. Knockout gets talked about often as an unhealthy perk for this very reason, and people have LONG been talking about slugging for the 4k for ages as a problem. This is nothing new, it's been a talking point for well over 5 years… so whether or not they fix the state of hooking as it is now, is irrelevant to the point I'm making… a slugged player has no agency.
gen repair, even at lower speed, is a big no, as well as gate opening while being slugged, totem cleansing too.
Ok, but again, you're just stating, without providing a point… if a survivor is slugged, they have to crawl to the generator.
For reference crawl speed is 0.7m/s, which is 1/6th of their normal speed. On average after losing the killer in chase, I'd say it takes me at least 10 seconds on average to make it back to a gen? That's a whole minute just to get there while slugged (30s more if I recover first). Then we have another 10 seconds to pick themselves up, then say the gen is 50%, that's another ~60s…. Bear in mind, the survivor is only alive for another 1 minute and 30s at this point…
So tell me, what's so unhealthy? The killer would have literally had to ignore the slugged survivor for well over 2 minutes. To fully repair a gen from nothing, the survivor is almost dead by the time they get that done.
the very mindset of average survivor player is what would make it unhealthy, i've already seen quite a lot people getting mad at others for pointing out problems with slugging and it's relations with hooking. One dude posted it on twitter and mass of people kept commenting stuff like
"shouldn't bigger challenge be more fun"
"skill issue"
"we deserve to have something against toxic killers" etc.
People have been extremely spoiled and they don't want any solution that will benefit health of the game for both sides, they just want that side they play gets benefits.
The mindset makes it unhealthy? A survivor being annoyed at the killer for slugging instead of unhooking makes it unhealthy? The two aren't related my man…
I play both killer and survivor, and I can't think of a single situation where a slugged survivor like this is gonna have me "OMG! That slugged survivor did <whatever>, I couldn't have possible done anything about that!". You're accusing me of making suggestions purely for the benefit of Survivor side… I'm gonna give you the benefit the doubt and assume you're new, but I've been quite vocal about in support of a lot of buffs to killer side just as often…
This I feel is a genuine issue for survivor, and I've made what to me is a sensible and reasonable suggestion, that isn't overpowered, isn't unfair. Being slugged means you can't take part at all in the game again, until someone on either side picks you up… that is a problem, and is why slugging for the 4k has been an issue ever since the hatch mechanics were changed to their to their modern state.
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They could add the ability for the last person to get themselves off the ground at a very slow rate. This would discourage slugging for the 4K because once one person is dead the other person could get up.
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You seem to be misunderstanding a number of points….
Survivors in the dying state can swap items on the floor/in chests. → Flashbangs on the floor, someone helps you up and boom)
How exactly does a flashbang being grabbed while on the floor and then being picked up differ from being picked up and taking a second to pick up the flashbang? If you're implying dropping a flashbang as you get picked up to save yourself, I never said you could use flashbangs while in the dying the state.
Survivors in the dying state can use keys and maps, both for reading auras. → can be used to dodge the killer to drag time.
- You're moving at 0.7m/s, a key doesn't help you do any meaningful movements to avoid being found over what happens normally.
Survivors in the dying state can use keys to open hatch. → prevents killer from getting a 4k (they have already won at this point)
If you make it to hatch with a key at 0.7m/s undetected by the killer you deserve hatch.
Survivors in the dying state can interact with totems taking 10 seconds to pull themselves up to support themselves, and cleanse the totem with a 30% action penalty. → Boon: Exponential
Cleanse != Boon, I never said boon, I said cleanse.
Survivors in the dying state can interact with a generator, taking 10 seconds to pull themselves up to support themselves on the generator and allowing them to repair the generator at a 30% action penalty. → Gen complete + Adrenaline
Adrenaline is hardly overpowered in its modern state, and see the above point here:
- The killer has to basically leave you slugged for 2 or 3 minutes most of the time for even a chance this combo comes off. It's nowhere near as broken as you make it out to be… you're telling me you can't find a survivor who can't run on a 3 gen within 2 minutes?
A Survivor that has recovered to 95% or more in the dying state can press the rush button to move 50% faster, bleed out 50% faster, and make 50% more noise. → can be used to dodge the killer to drag time.
You're 50% louder making it much easier to find you, and even with 50% extra movement, you're only 1.05m/s. You're even bleeding out faster, so your ability to delay time is not really that good is it? Again… what's broken here?
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Why did you mention me ? I didn’t even talk to you and you quote stuff I didn’t even say!
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What I have to say in this discussion (after some of the stuff said here) is we need more new features that improve the game and add new things to it basekit for both sides. We haven’t got any new features since a long long time. The only things we get is perks and killers, no new features. Dbd needs new features and all this “survivors should never get anything new” is so stupid. I really hope the devs will try to add new things/mechanics to the game, which are desperately needed. This abhorrence/hate against anything new in this community is so annoying. No wonder this game can’t improve and doesn’t get any new features, when this community isn’t open for anything.
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i accidentally quoted you instead of OP's reply to mine comment, apologies :D
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I really think being able to do gens while slugged defeats the purpose of why some killers slug.
Not that I'm defending 4-man slug tactics, that needs something for sure, but the reason some killers will slug one or two survivors is because they need to slow down gen progression. Same with proxy-camping and tunneling to an extent. And I doubt we want gens to take even longer if you're asking for survivors to be able to do their objective at all times unless on hook. Exit gate progression while slugged is also counter to how endgame is played out.
Some of your other ideas are pretty good though, I will say. Not so sure about chests and items, but using totems as a way to pick yourself up could be interesting. Even make it where hexes prevent it, or at least make it 50% slower. It would also make Pentimento more useful outside of hex builds (which would possibly require a nerf to some numbers, depending on the potency) and possibly make deerstalker a near-meta perk alongside Penti to keep an eye if the survivor picks themselves up with a totem.2 -
We vote an additional thing: Slugged survivors can heal other slugs back to injured.
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Similar to Rulebreaker's suggestion, I would have 2 separate, 95'd Survivors be able to pick each other up at the same time. That way, if a Killer is intentionally BMing and camping their corpses, the 2nd Surv at least gets the weapon wipe hit CD to run away.
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The last thing you said indicates there might have been somethimg I was unclear on there... so just in therr is is confusion...
When I say pick themselves up on gens and totems, I didn't mean the survivor pick themselves up out of the dying state. I meant they pull themselves off the floor to prop themselves up to work of the gen or totem (which takes 10s), and then they start repairing/cleansing woth penalty...
However they are still in the dying state, completing ot or letting drops them back to the floor. I was describing animations, but I think that might have made it unclear 😅
I've edited that correction in just in case 😅
However interesting thoughts regardless, still mulling that over 🤔
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While I agree with the premise that dying survivors lacking agency is the main problem, it is entirely by design thst dying survivors cannot further objectives, even side objectives. This is what generates pressure to rescue dying survivors.
Even having actions at reduced rate could be problematic. Imagine you down someone repairing a gen that's at 95%, and another survivor is right there ready to finish it. That is probably the most understandable scenario to slug someone for pressure, but it would be a lose-lose scenario if the dying survivor could finish those repairs even at a third of the speed. The whole premise seems to be punishing the wrong kind of slugging, as it's not going to help in the most egregious cases of killers bleeding you out in spite.
I think what they need to add for dying survivors is a way to exact personal agency. So that you have more control over yourself and your positioning, and your chances of survival.
By allowing dying survivors to 'sprint' with a cost to bleedout time, you may only be adding one single action, but it's still an action that can be taken.
- Hold sprint to crawl twice as fast and bleedout twice as fast.
You can find a safe spot where you can be rescued, which also costs the killer for leaving you if they're then unable to find you or prevent another survivor rescuing you, however this doesn't eliminate the pressure of slugging that something like Unbreakable or the abiliy to further objectives would do.
It would also have the effect of providing a quicker route out of the game if the killer is just bleeding you out obnoxiously.
This shouldn't impact the value of Tenacity, as that would still provide simultaneous recovery and eliminate the bleedout cost.
I do think there should be another effect that only triggers when ALL survivors are slugged, which allows ONE survivor to be able to recover themselves. As this would only cone into play when slugging is used not for pressure, but for 'checkmate' when downing all four at the start of the game or preventing the hatch from spawning.
Post edited by Seraphor on4 -
Responding to…
I do think there should be another effect that only triggers when ALL survivors are slugged, which allows ONE survivor to be able to recover themselves. As this would only cone into play when slugging is used not for pressure, but for 'checkmate' when downing all four at the start of the game or preventing the hatch from spawning.
If we look at this from a lore perspective… hear me out. I dont think the Entity would want 4 survivors slugged on the ground. The entity eats up the fear, chaos, everything from the trial.
There is nothing to enjoy for anyone from this scenario, not even the Entity. So I agree. A 4 man down mechanic sounds awesome lol. Nice
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Being on the hook, the survivor has 0 agency. they can physically do NOTHING except struggle or kill themselves faster.
Hooks have been in the game for ages and survivor have adopted hooks as "ok" gameplay. it is mystery to why slugging is not an ok gameplay loop during the match.
obviously, there is 4 man slugging in end game and the toxic type slugging…. like leaving survivors on the floor purposely when 1 survivor is alive and like doing very… questionable things like humping, constantly picking the survivor up and dropping them, wasting survivor time, the toxic type slugging but that is something that BVHR should try be address in these type of gameplay loops where killer doesn't abuse a gameplay mechanic for malicious intent…. kinda similar to how people would spam flashlight clicks to be toxic to the killer even though flashlight is a fine gameplay tool.
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That's not true though. They can attempt to unhook themselves in first, so they'll judge and act if teammates don't come help, and in second you have constant skill checks that if not completed will kill you. It may not be the most engaging, but it's more interactive than just crawling for the sake of crawling. All agency is taken from your hands and you're just forced to either be bled out be rescued by someone who may not even come. At least on hook after your agency is taken you'll be dead in half the time and killers that wanna troll cant just keep picking you up then knocking you again just to extend your time in match. I had a killer who completely dominated the match and just cycled the slug timer between us. Let one of us nearly bleed out then knock the other picking the near dead one back up. Once the killer takes control of the last two survivors he can extend the game brutally long if he wants to. Once the last survivors nearly bled he can now just close the hatch pick him up and block the exit gates until he's dead.
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All agency is taken from your hands and you're just forced to either be bled out be rescued by someone who may not even come.
this sentence right here can be 100% copied, 1:1 for hooks. this was my point.
killers that wanna troll cant just keep picking you up then knocking you again just to extend your time in match
that is toxic version of using slugging. killers used to have a name in old days for survivors that did not end the game and would purposely spend time abusing infinity loops because during that time, killer vault 3x slower, there was no entity blockers and bloodlust did not exist. if it was a swf doing this, they were refer to as "Bully squads" because their entire objective was to bully and be toxic as possible to the killer. so you'd just have a survivor that macro click his flashlight 1000x times in your ear vaulting an infinity window over and over to just prologue the game forever. they removed all this stuff from survivor.
Unfortunately killer can do similar toxic behavior with slugging where they can pick you up, have you wiggle out, hit you on floor again and just waste your time. you'll have killer that nod and hump and have you do this painful 4 minute process for you to bleed out. None of this gameplay. the killer is using slugging to be annoying just like survivors used to use flashlights and unfair vaults to do same thing in the past. they never bother to try address this toxic killer gameplay…. well they tried address it once by introducing this "finisher" mori system which would grant survivors unlimited base-kit unbreakable every 45 seconds in order implement some instant mori system when all 4 survivors were on the floor. they attempt to address this in a negative light towards gameplay.
it's more interactive than just crawling for the sake of crawling.
The slugging that i am refer to is when killers are slugging and attempting kills survivors through slugging. Like actual gameplay related to slugging. Crawling around is still more gameplay than being perfectly stationary on a hook. in many ways, your moving position of hooks ever so slightly as you crawl forward to your teammates.
In most cases, when killer talk about slugging, they're not talking about toxic mindless slugging end game, they're usually talking about their early-game and mid-game slugging.
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I do understand your point, and you are both correct and incorrect.
Being hooked is certainly comparable to being slugged, and a hooked player has substantially less agency than standing, but there are 2 key differences that give it more agency vs. being slugged: -
- The hooked player still has agency in the form of unhook attempts to try and escape or sacrifice themselves. The player can still have meaningful input into the events of the trial.
- The hook timer is substantially shorter and part of the normal gameplay loop.
This means that a player who is hooked is still engaged in the trial and needs to retain knowledge of the current situation, such as gens repaired, survivor state, killer position, perks in play, etc, etc. Using that information, the player has the agency to decide to take the risk of an unhook, or die for hatch. This obviously comes with the problem of quitting, but assuming the player can be trusted not to abuse the mechanism (which they sadly can't), the point is the player is very much engaged in the trial and still CAN make meaningful decisions. Their engagement is often rewarded after being saved, unhooking themselves, or sacrificing themselves to accept a loss for the potential benefit of teammate.
This was my original point, you don't need to have good decisions to make, but you do need decisions. A hooked player has decisions and needs to remain vigilant in their assessment of the trial state.
A slugged player on the other hand has significantly less agency. Without appropriate perks: -
- They can not possibly save themselves.
- They can not sacrifice themselves for hatch.
- They can barely move so escaping the killer and reaching anywhere is very unlikely, as well as the fact they cannot partake in any other aspects of the trial.
- They are stuck in this state for 4 minutes.
This means that their agency, especially in regards to being slugged for the 4k, is basically non existent. If another team member is alive and not being chased they have some agency is regards to move or recover, but they themselves move so slow there is still effectively no decision for them to make 99% of the time. If no other team member is available, there is genuinley nothing to do, no way to meaningfully affect the trial from this point on. Compared to being hooked, remaining invested in the trial is more frequently punished by being picked up by the killer anyway, slapped back down as you stand up even more so in the case of being 4k slugged because that effort is 99. 9% of the time wasted effort. This is the fundamental difference between being hooked and being slugged.
Obviously I believe survivors being slugged in the trial should basically play out the same as it does now most of the time. The killer won that chase, and shouldn't be punished for doing so. I would of course be vehemently against basekit Unbreakable.
I am also against giving an option to quit as a slugged player like being hooked does, as it is against the killers objectives to bleed out a survivor, it is not considered a "kill", and of course I do believe the killer should have a right to go for the 4k without having to gamble on hatch. However with that ethos, short of allowing a player to sacrifice themselves for hatch, the slugged player needs something else to do rather than just wait to lose...
... and in that regard I feel this very conservative set of basekit abilities makes the whole idea of slugging, and especially slugging for the 4k much more interesting for everyone involved.
Post edited by UndeddJester on2 -
One thought I will add though is there is the issue of sabo saves, which is a very valid argument against allowing a slugged survivor from doing totems or generators. A killer vs. a slugged survivor they had to drop in to the dying state, cannot effectively do anything to stop the survivor repairing the generator...
However this could easily be fixed by saying "performing a conspicuous action while in the dying state resets wiggle progress". So that would be a good improvement to the suggestion, which I've edited in.
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The hook timer is substantially shorter and part of the normal gameplay loop.
every time i read posts like this, first part that always ticks me off is the "Not part of gameplay loop". Slugging IS part of normal gameplay loop. in fact, it is so much part of normal gameplay loop that it is impossible to not be slugged any given in trial as long you lose the chase as the survivor. even if it only few seconds on average that you stay on the floor after being knocked down, that is still part of slugging process.
Second part to talk about is… this concept of agency. The only form of agency that hooking allows which isn't good agency is killing yourself on hook. self-suicide. if only important part of agency is giving up on hook, than we seriously have to consider like the leave match option and d/c penalty because d/c/leave from the game is greatest form of agency in regards to that.
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Well I don't think I was trying to make a point that slugging was something I'm trying to get rid of... which is normally the point being made in regards to slugging not being "a normal part of the gameplay loop". The normal gameplay loop I was referring to is both players advancing their objective, hooking is the normal gameplay loop of advancing the killers objective, slugging is not directly.
I of course understand the concept of slugging for pressure, and don't think I have made any suggestion here that significantly reduces the slowdown and pressure of slugging... if you think I have done otherwise, if you want to point to it then I'd be happy to discuss it rather argue over abstract concepts.
Regarding agency I said being able to attempt unhooks/ suicide for hatch was one aspect...
The actual main point of agency I made is, the short time frame requires the player to stay aware of the match situation... and doing so means you're formulating decisions on what to do when you come off hook. This decision making is often something you actually get to act upon on hook, since while on hook you are effectively "safe" from the killer, and the usual outcome is you do get unhooked.
The same is not true of being slugged. You are down for 4 minutes potentially, you have 0 ability to decide anything, you are not "safe", and thus your investment in keeping up with the match is often not rewarded. Often while slugged you will watch your teammates get slugged with nothing you can do except watch, and if you get picked up you tend to get immediately slugged back down again. The usual outcome however is the killer eventually picks you up and hooks you anyway. In this way the slugged survivor has no meaningful decisions to make because often any decisions or ideas they have been considering end up not mattering and this gets worse the longer you are slugged.
All suggestions I've made here give a player who is excessively slugged something to do. None of it is strong, and is far from being problematic as I can see.
If I'm saying anything that is bad faith or illogical do please tell me, cause I don't think I'm making an unreasonable point...
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The normal gameplay loop I was referring to is both players advancing their objective, hooking is the normal gameplay loop of advancing the killers objective, slugging is not directly.
The killer is advancing their objective. it is just very slow. it is like having 1 hook and it lasts 4 minutes. When you slugged on the floor, your safe on the floor as well. in fact one of major issues behind slugging for killer is how killer cannot advance or speed-up the objective of slugging. With hooks, the killer can advance hooks faster by tunneling and re-hooking survivors but this relies on survivor to save teammate and farm them off hook. with slugging, there is no conceivable way to finish objective faster for killer. It is wait 4 minutes and that is it all.
I think that is one of reasons why pure slugging feels so ineffective for killer. the survivor can pick-up survivors over and over and killer cannot speed-up said death.
In this way the slugged survivor has no meaningful decisions to make because often any decisions or ideas they have been considering end up not mattering and this gets worse the longer you are slugged.
The survivor has all power to manipulate and use slugging as boon. It is the killer that has no power within slugging. that is why killer hook survivors because it gives them more control speed up death of said survivor but over-time… this is becoming less and less true with longer hook-states. hooks are becoming like slugging where killer is not getting much reward for hooking and they're wasting time hooking since it is time sink. survivor can leave other survivors on hooks for 70 seconds which is long time and than one for one trade. slugging is similar except it is 4 minutes long…. which might as well just be all gens done.
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One thing you mentioned is definitely worth highlighting; some people playing killer are seeing less and less benefit from hooking compared to slugging. I play both roles, and I definitely see situations where slugging is more optimal against some teams and in some situations than hooking. I'll slug and start a chase for pressure, and there are games where I see that hooking someone might actually cost me the advantage. Sometimes I even slug to be nice to someone so they can stay in the game.
Having said that, I do feel in both survivor and killer matches that slugging sometimes feels extremely rude or even mean. And in those cases as killer, I'll put the survivor on a hook regardless of whether I could get more advantage from it (the last survivor should always get a chance at hatch).
I think the slugging meta that's resulted from those advantages is a problem though, with some people even using slugging builds. From a survivor's perspective, slugging does feel like a total loss of agency; the only thing I can really do is slowly try to hide so a teammate can pick me up. Being on a hook feels more engaging to me. I think it would be more fun if survivors could do some tiny actions that might end up being slightly useful (e.g. open a chest with a speed penalty so they could hope for a medkit or get a crawling speed boost at bleedout timer penalty).
But I do think you're right, it's a problem that slugging is looking more and more beneficial compared with hooking. It's something that should be addressed.
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Hooks require a commitment from the Killer, and provide an opportunity to rescue the Survivor through things like stuns/blinds/sabotages. Hooks force a stricter time-limit on other survivors to perform a rescue before the hooked survivor gets closer to death. You can also "bleed out faster" on Hook if you so choose, and there's a possibility of a self-unhook/"pickup". Hooks have more presentation that slugging. There is more engagement and spectacle with the process of Hooking than just being left on the ground like an afterthought.
I think that's why Hooks are considered ok compared to slugging, which comes across as disrespectful, boring, and in extreme cases much longer lasting than a Hook.
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An interesting take, but I think it's an overly complicated solution. And no doubt people would still complain about how slow and dull crawling everywhere to do those actions still is, or sitting in place recovering.
Give them a method to perform a self-pickup to regain the agency you describe, just make it not the most desirable choice compared to being healed by a teammate.
I'd love to see what happens were these changes added to the dying state:
- Survivors can now recover while crawling (with a 50% recovery speed penalty when moving, Tenacity removes the penalty and increases the crawling speed). This is to make recovery feel more fluid instead of only recovering while stationary.
- Survivors can pick themselves up under Hook at full recovery, but become Broken until the next time they're put into the dying state.
- Survivors bleedout faster while underneath a Hook, but have increased recovery speed, maybe 100% on both points? (this is to add a new dynamic and an option to "give up" like self-unhook attempts.)
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That's more than fair. Just the bleedout/crawl faster/louder grunts change on its own (probably turned up a bit more) would do a lot to alleviate a lot of the pain points around being slugged, without changing the value of slugging for the killer.
I think it plenty ofcredibility as a suggestion just on its own. My suggestions in the OP were potential features to consider for inclusion, but my hope was to get an idea for which ones would be beneficial and which ones don't.
And tbh... if Survivor can accelerate their bleedout in scenarios where the whole team gets slugged/slugged for the 4k, that on its own is probably enough. A faster crawl allows a slugged survivor to meaningfully try to reach hatch.
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Hooks require a commitment from the Killer, and provide an opportunity to rescue the Survivor through things like stuns/blinds/sabotages.
Don't you think this a problem for killer? A lot of killer dislike this aspect of gameplay and actively found it unfun. Otz specific had interview tru3 awhile back where he said that he used like altruism actions from survivors that would encourage protecting teammates and keeping the team alive. After his 2nd interview, He stated that he really disliked altruism and found that when survivors were successful at doing these actions, they made match less fun for him. Many killer agree with this which is why perks like Background player and For the people+Buckle up received nerfs.
Beyond fun factor, the killer is generally the role that has invisible clock for how long until they lose all gens and survivors are able escape. from a balance perceptive, survivors succeed at any of those actions likely one of easiest way to slant a match into survivors favor. these actions being strong or successful promote slugging further.
Hooks force a stricter time-limit on other survivors to perform a rescue before the hooked survivor gets closer to death.
This aspect has lead to many survivors dislike camping to the point that strict timer is becoming less and less of factor. it is almost like it is more rude to killer to force second stages.
You can also "bleed out faster" on Hook if you so choose, and there's a possibility of a self-unhook/"pickup".
Another point of contention and frustration. Teammates killing themselves on hook and going next. A way to scapegoat the D/C penalty. Not very fun for survivor especially if your on that team.
I think that's why Hooks are considered ok compared to slugging, which comes across as disrespectful, boring, and in extreme cases much longer lasting than a Hook.
i think the main points of contention that survivor use towards slugging is slugging in end game for 3k to get 4k and that toxic form of slugging which is just there to waste survivor time and annoy the survivor. the survivor that hate all form of slugging likely hate slugging because it contributes to them losing. it is likely same reason why many survivor dislike tunneling for same reason because it contributes to survivors losing. for all these reasons, survivor keep pushing base-kit unbreakable.
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Don't you think this a problem for killer? A lot of killer dislike this aspect of gameplay and actively found it unfun. Otz specific had interview tru3 awhile back where he said that he used like altruism actions from survivors that would encourage protecting teammates and keeping the team alive. After his 2nd interview, He stated that he really disliked altruism and found that when survivors were successful at doing these actions, they made match less fun for him. Many killer agree with this which is why perks like Background player and For the people+Buckle up received nerfs.
It is a problem, yes. Having your "prize" snatched away from you does feel bad. Similar to generators being regressed constantly as a survivor, or being injured immediately after healing, or being slugged for a moderate amount of time. Your "work goes to waste", and you feel less in control. But this is a struggle between two sides. If your aim is to win, not everything will be good vibes. Even if altruistic actions were shifted more towards chase co-operative action with survivors, Killers would still get miffed at any successful disengage and the understanding of time lost because of it.
That being said, how easy it is to do those altruistic actions, and what is sacrificed does need to be taken into consideration. Background Player essentially meaning positioning/chasing away survivors isn't quite effective as the Survivor can move at warp speed to an angle to blind you, all inside a single perk slot, isn't too healthy. And imparting temporary endurance while also picking up a survivor with Buckle Up/For the People was far too protective of a combination.
(To be frank I think blind stuns as a whole need a rework so they're not just blind and stun for the purposes of a pickup. I'd prefer if they imparted a hinder so the Killer needs to decide if they've enough speed to reach a hook or to drop the survivor and chase the altruist. Stun drops IMO should be reserved for Pallets and the downed survivor smartly positioning themselves in such a position.)
Beyond fun factor, the killer is generally the role that has invisible clock for how long until they lose all gens and survivors are able escape. from a balance perceptive, survivors succeed at any of those actions likely one of easiest way to slant a match into survivors favor. these actions being strong or successful promote slugging further.
This is true of both roles. Killers for how long it takes survivors to complete gens, and for Survivors, how long it takes the Killer to down and Hook Survivors to remove them from the game. It's just that for the Killer, any mistake on their part is compounded by how time-efficient the 3 other survivors are. Or in the case of altruistic action/rescuing, compounded by the time-efficiency of the 2 other survivors (or fewer, but that isn't optimal).
Hooks force a stricter time-limit on other survivors to perform a rescue before the hooked survivor gets closer to death.This aspect has lead to many survivors dislike camping to the point that strict timer is becoming less and less of factor. it is almost like it is more rude to killer to force second stages.
Proxy camping. A strategy, and not a very fun one for the hooked survivor. I agree. But it creates a new objective for survivors to interact with. Though I'd like to see a method implemented that survivors can use to circumvent that strategy with a time-investment. Being able to channel at a Hook to transport a hooked survivor there without the Killer being alerted or something. Removing the absolute certainty of where survivors need to be to unhook a hooked survivor that drives such proxying.
You can also "bleed out faster" on Hook if you so choose, and there's a possibility of a self-unhook/"pickup".Another point of contention and frustration. Teammates killing themselves on hook and going next. A way to scapegoat the D/C penalty. Not very fun for survivor especially if your on that team.
I agree.
Though I find the sentiment around people giving up making things suck for everyone being a good thing to espouse. However, were there ever a competitive mode introduced, I could see that being removed in it.
(And as a side-note: if a faster bleedout was introduced, some people would "go next" just the same using that. Unless they changed it, holding sprint while in the dying state prevents anyone from being able to heal you)
I think that's why Hooks are considered ok compared to slugging, which comes across as disrespectful, boring, and in extreme cases much longer lasting than a Hook.i think the main points of contention that survivor use towards slugging is slugging in end game for 3k to get 4k and that toxic form of slugging which is just there to waste survivor time and annoy the survivor. the survivor that hate all form of slugging likely hate slugging because it contributes to them losing. it is likely same reason why many survivor dislike tunneling for same reason because it contributes to survivors losing. for all these reasons, survivor keep pushing base-kit unbreakable.
Also Killers that only slug and bleed everyone out, skipping hooks entirely, and thus reducing the amount of chases each survivor has. But IMO all of that stems from an inability to perform a self-pickup while in the dying state facilitating slugging to be such an effective method of stymying survivor progress on their objectives. Which is what OP is trying to address. (though I think it's too much work for something that could be simplified into allowing a survivor to exit the dying state through some method and enough neglect from the Killer).
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