Something needs to be done about the last 2 survivors taking killer hostage
They'll literally hide anywhere for an hour if they have to. Should Survivors accumulate crows when they're not repairing the generator under a certain threshold so they won't be able to tap the gen and preemptively disable the crows?
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Bro, for real. It's a ######### when you feel like you have to fill a perk slot with somethign, specifically just for hunting down the last hidey bastard.
Other side of that coin, I've been one of 2 survivors remaining who is actually trying, meanwhile the other survivor DOES ABSOLUTELY ######### ALL. The other survivor clearly just wanting to wait you out so they can have a chance at the hatch, because ######### you, they have no obligation to you. And granted, if it's unsafe, I don't think you should just rush in and save me if it's just going to clearly kill you in the process, but do somedamnthing! so help me if I spectate, just to watch my sub 4000pts teammate, at end game twitch around behind a wall by a corner like an #########, just because you think it's funny to watch the killer struggle to find your ass...
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Ok deal if something is done about killers taking the game hostage slugging all 4 survs till they bleed out also
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One takes a maximum of 4 minutes, the other can be dragged out indefinitely until the Server shuts down... so, not the same.
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It's crazy because it just happened to me. I couldn't find the survivors and I refused to disconnect until suddenly both of them died at the same time. First time this ever happened to me.
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No , as long as killer are gona slug the 3rd to have 4k , i would prefer not show myself.
Since finisher mori is baseline 100% of my game are a slug on the 3rd.14 -
If the killer is not in chase for X amount of time (consecutively, not over the entirety of the game), one survivor with the least hook stages is revealed via killer instinct until the killer either, hits a survivor or starts a chase.
Make it 5 minutes and that ensures, that it won't interfere with normal games.
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Yeah, I think we could use mechanics to speed up the 2 players left scenario in the same way that we had to hurry along hatch standoffs. It's obnoxious and it isn't good gameplay for anyone.
My two cents is that once there's two players left, survivors should start to accumulate crows whenever they aren't within 32m of the killer and they aren't doing conspicuous actions, and they can't lose crows by moving between tiles anymore, only by doing conspicuous actions. But in return, survivors get permanent Unbreakable, so the killer can't use their advantages to stall the game in return. Possibly boosted repair speed inversely proportionate to the number of gens remaining (so no boost if 1 gen left and 2x repair speed if 5 gens left), though that's more experimental and I don't expect it to change much.
Something like this could also be implemented in a sort of… the way battle royale games steadily harshen the conditions? I don't know what the term would be, but basically make everything ramp up as time goes on in a 2-survivor scenario. Normal conditions for 3 minutes, then increased crow spawn timer and slightly increased repair speed, and so on until killer has permanent killer instinct outside of chase and survivors have 3% haste or something. I can't really say what would be balanced, only that I would prefer the game shift out of permanent hide and seek and forced into game progression and 'may the best player win', not 'may the player willing to waste the most time get the hatch.'
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Unfortunately the last two survivors hiding is a result of the constant “slugging for the 4K” playstyle. They don’t wanna come out and do gens or even help the other person when they know killers are just gonna slug one and then likely camp the slugged survivor to get the 4th down. It’s understandable that they’re just like “hide it out as long as possible so maybe one of us has a shot at hatch.”
By punishing this, it basically send the message that the game is over when 2 people are left, which will result in more DCs and giving up on hooks.
This is how certain playstyles create counter playstyles that create counter playstyles etc.
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One idea I have in this ballpark, is if each sacrificed survivor triggers a new global effect. Similarly to how the Hatch opens after the third sacrifice. But it's more in favour of giving survivors tools rather than making it harder to hide, after all survivors hide in this situations because they have no other viable options. That said I have no qualms with increasing afk crow activation alongside this.
After the first survivor sacrificed, all gens go into 'Overcharge'. Global gen speeds are increased by 3% for each gen remaining to be repaired. If there's one gen left to do it's just 3%, if you're are 5 gens still, it's 15%. This provides some assistance to remaining survivors in the case of tunneling one out, and some hope to carry on instead of everyone immediately giving up.
Being only 3% per gen, it's still nowhere near enough to the handicap the survivors have once one of them is out, so you can't say it's "punishing the killer for winning" they're just winning by 97% instead of 100%. And as it only comes into play after an elimination, it's entirely within the killers ability to deny it, by spreading hooks. Survivors could potentially game it by 99ing gens, but again a sacrifice has already occurred, they're already losing and it's going to be difficult to keep all those gens at 99 while also not getting hit.
Additionally, the rate of afk crows increases.
After the second survivor sacrificed, all survivors receive the 'Reprieve' effect, allowing them to pick themselves up from the dying state. This combats slugging for the 4K, so it's no longer a guaranteed strat to turn a 3K into an automatic 4K. It still requires time for the slugged survivors to recover so I don't see much avenue for abuse, it's essentially what we had in 2v8.
Gens also go to the next stage of 'Overcharge' after the second sacrificed survivor, increasing it to 5% per unrepaired generator. At this stage, there's really only hope for survivors if there's only one or two gens left, so 5% or 10% repair speed bonus seems fair to me.
Afk crows also increase further in contrast.
After the third survivor sacrificed, the Hatch opens, as normal.
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By punishing this
The last two survivors hiding breaks the game's rules. If they're not working on their objective and also not allowing the killer to complete their objective, it's considered holding the killer hostage. It's a reportable, bannable offense. BHVR needs to do something about it in-game because it's unintuitive that this breaks the game's rules. It'd be better if it just weren't possible.
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It shouldn't be necessary for survivors to hide.
The last two survivors hide because they have no other viable options unless one of them sacrifices themselves for the other. Two solo survivors are unlikely to want to be the sacrifice and instead wait for the other to be found first.
If survivors rated the chances at furthering the objective when down to 2 survivors remaining, then this wouldn't happen.
How we manage that is a more complicated question.
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I don't have much to say other than that I really like the sound of this. I think that the gen speed increase could increase semi-exponentially instead of at a flat rate, so that the boost is nonexistent with 3 survivors and 1 gen left (as this is a very doable situation and the killer is arguably punished for hooking instead of slugging by any amount of gen speed boost), but very high with 3 survivors and 5 gens left (as this situation is virtually unbeatable as it stands and is one of the reasons why hard tunneling is so effective), but apart from that I think this is excellently thought out and the status effects are perfectly tailored to the evolving flow of the match.
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It's a though one.
Basically by doing nothing but hiding they concede they've already lost.
So making it impossible for them to hide for too long would probably fix the problem. (Suggested many times, with many variations, the most recent one by @Senile_Grandpa.)
It seems some disagree and call that "a free win", missing the part where the survivors are basically check-mate.
Whatever the devs do, it should probably go along these lines.
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How we manage that is a more complicated question.
I'm making no comment as to how it should be handled. Just saying that the game is currently in a bad state, because the intuitive thing for survivors to do when there are only two left is to hide and wait for the hatch. But the game is balanced around killers patrolling generators to find survivors; the game breaks when survivors avoid gens and the killer is forced to search the entire map. So the devs need to do something, because the final two survivors hiding is in no way uncommon.
Reporting people breaking the rules is not a solution and BHVR should not put the onus of dealing with this on its players. They need to fix the game. That probably requires a sophisticated touch that includes multiple elements, like making participating more lucrative for survivors, making escape seem more possible, and/or damaging one's own chance at escape if they don't participate. Whatever the devs do, they need to do something. I don't like being the killer trying to find the final survivors, and I like it even less when I'm one of the final survivors and I'm trying to do gens while my teammates do nothing but hide.
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Is there a good reason why the fourth survivor should be in checkmate once the third survivor is sacrificed?
The second sacrifice is essentially the 'check' before the checkmate. Which regresses the question; Is there a good reason why the last two survivors should cencede to a loss once the second survivor has been sacrificed?
Why are we arguing that a 2K is the benchmark for a killer win, and that it should automatically be upgraded to a 4K?
Because that is what we're saying when we argue that the solution should be to make it impossible for survivors to hide when two remain. You're removing the last option they have, and telling them to accept defeat and give up after 2 kills. With tunneling, 2 kills isn't difficult. So now we're rewarding tunneling.
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You mean the last 2 survivors after watching 2 players get immediately tunneled out of the game at 5 gens? Because back in the day we had a solution with the hatch spawning early (although locked) to end the game quickly. But killers mains cried about people bringing keys and just escaping at 3 or 4 completed gens. What's the incentive for the last 2 to jump out and say "KILL US TOO"?
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Bro, if you're staring at a chainsaw billy who just mowed down 2 of your buddies are you going to run at them waving your arms saying KILL ME!? Bring back OG hatch spawn rules.
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The fourth survivor is never in checkmate: he has the hatch and the doors. That's basically 3 options with reasonable chances of survival. (I'm not talking about him being already in a chase of course. Different story.)
About the two being checkmate, I'm only talking about the ones who hide. Some still try and, amazingly, succeed. (But in my experience only with at most two gens lefts and gens spread enough for the killer having to patrol.)
The only problem here is essentially the ones who give up. The killer already managed to discourage them from doing anything. What is it but a victory? Everything else is wasting some time.
But …
If there was a mechanic that tells the killer where the furthest one is (how? details. not important). The killer can find him an start a chase. During that time the other can do whatever he wants. (Gens or hiding) If the chased survivor goes down, the last on can go for an unhook (doubtful) or wait and go for the hatch or the doors. It's basically the fourth survivor case which isn't a checkmate.
Why the furthest one? Because it makes it longer to find him, and it's essentially a random choice.
I also thing that, maybe, instead of a hook, if such a mechanic was in play the down should trigger a mori : no slugging for 4k. The goal is essentially to not waste time. Let's do that on both fronts. (I'm not sure about this part of the idea.)
It's basically yet another second chance mechanic but it would solve the problem without being certain death.
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That is what annoys me the most in this situation.
When it happens to me of course (and I'm the one being on the gen, I'd rather go next than waste time that much).
But when I'm the killer and I notice there is one courageous one doing something while the last one hides like a coward I'd like to scream : point me to the other one and I'll let you go.
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I suppose revealing the aura of the furthest survivor for a few seconds after the second survivor sacrificed wouldn't be too punishing. The killer could go there and would be able to tell if the survivor was hiding and have a ballpark to search. But it's essentially a free BBQ proc, so if you are running BBQ it's redundant.
Anything that persists for longer would need to be much more measured. Maybe only revealing survivors greater than ~90 meters away.
In either case though you're going to be disproportionately buffing high mobility killers, which is never a good thing.
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Agreed : there should be a concede mechanic for this. Unless unbreakable or something.
No Mither would be the tricky one to handle.
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when I'm the killer and I notice there is one courageous one doing something while the last one hides like a coward I'd like to scream : point me to the other one and I'll let you go.
If I'm one of the last two survivors and my teammate was not helping and the killer saw me working and didn't kill me… I won't open an exit gate. I go off, I do bones, I look for chests, I walk around taking in the sights… at some point the other survivor will go for an exit gate, and when the killer interrupts them I help my teammate as much as they helped me.
It's rare I get the opportunity to do that, usually the killer kills the first person they find, but I'm very appreciate of a killer who pays attention and has sympathy. I try to repay what I can.
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First I'd like to point out it's not about buffing anybody. It's like the hatch. It's a mechanic that would be there to give a chance to an otherwise utter defeat. I don't expect both survivors to stand a chance. One would, chosen randomly. To find the hatch high mobility killers also have the advantage.
And I wouldn't give a BBQ-like proc on hook. It should only be a fix against the ones who hide for long, not the courageous players.
It would only activate if "nothing" happens for, say, one minute after the last hook. Nothing being none of "gen progressed enough" + "chase".
And the detection should probably be a "killer instinct" that starts proccing every 15 seconds until the situation is remedied (e.g. start of a chase.)
I'm sure there are ways to improve this and fix all the kinks I'm not thinking about.
Ideally that mechanic should apply on the general case. Meaning it could also solve survivors hiding from the start (it happens). It's just extremely rare.
I always think about this failed competitor who had a fix for this: if no interaction happens between the opposing sides, they'd both get each-other's position until an interaction would happen. (That game failed because the killer role there was borderline impossible and very tiring.)
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Unfortunately the last two survivors hiding is a result of the constant "slugging for the 4k" playstyle.
It's really not. The last 2 survivors hiding is a result of the hatch allowing exactly one survivor to escape.
The 2 remaining survivors know that they have pretty bad chances of finishing the gens and getting out, so at least one of them will die. But both want to survive. So they will hide in the hopes that their teammate is killed before them, so that they have a chance to get the hatch.
If the killer has eliminated 2 survivors with gens remaining, then they have pretty much won already. They can't lose anymore and it's very unlikely they won't get another kill. Meaning, the game is over anyway and it only remains to be decided if the game will end in a 4k or a 3k.
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What’s crazy is how quick survivors can DC or ‘go next’ on hook at the start of the game because they feel the game is already lost; but when it’s down to the last 2 they often just try and hide each other out for forever no matter how many gens are done for what 2500 extra escape points?
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The hatch itself is 2500 BP. Surviving in general is 7000 BP. Surviving as the obsession adds another 1500 BP to all that.
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It's real funny you even say this, considering all the survivors that whine to go next and their excuses to suicide on hook. And if you as Killer slug them for a single minute, shed tears for their precious time lost, but will endlessly out wait a killer hiding forever in the shadows.
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Hatch escapes should be less rewarded considering how the survivor failed their main objective, opening gates to escape properly. Noone should be proud to be given Hatch. As if an accomplishment
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You're not exactly wrong, but it's important to remember that survivors are not a gestalt - or even a distinct entity unto themselves. Some players are hypocrites or just consistently selfish and only care about their own experience ambivalent to the problems their behavior causes for others, but mostly it's different players with different complaints. Many of the survivors who complain about being slugged for the 4k are also killers who complain about survivors hiding forever.
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Something needs to be done about slugging for the 4k.
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That's not taking the game hostage. There's a bleedout timer. Move on. Next.
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That's not even a valid comparison.
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I really dislike this statement. They're both terrible for the same reason - you're being forced to wait an excessive amount of time in a game that's already over because the other players are preventing you from moving next via obviously unintentional gameplay, and you have no power to exit save forfeiting everything you've already earned.
"It ends eventually" has never made anything okay in this game. There's a timer for the match to end and the survivors to automatically get sacrificed. That doesn't mean two Claudettes moving between Dead Dawg corner bushes for 50 minutes is engaging gameplay. It doesn't mean the killer bleeding out survivors for no other reason than to be a dick is okay either, any more than it was okay for survivors to tell the killer "just slug them to death" when Boil Over had unhookable zones on half the maps. Forced time-wasting gameplay sucks for everyone, always, and should be reduced wherever possible.
One side's problems don't invalidate the other's, and it's healthy for the game to address problems on both sides, not just the side you favor or believe suffers more.
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Dislike it all you want. The devs have literally said the same thing. You have nothing to combat that with. Is it boring? Yes. Is it unfun? Yes. Of course. But it's NOT holding the game hostage. Which is what I said. So pick your battles. This ain't it.
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People have been complaining about this frequently on this forum for years. There is no way the devs are not at the very least aware of this issue. There are multiple solutions that would be very easy to implement, but given the fact that it's been ignored for years, it's clear that the devs do not plan to do anything about it.
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Make generator times take 45 seconds if there's 2 remaining survivors first.
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So people rather hide for an hour dropping their item in a corner or locker jumping than bleed out for 4 minutes? I don't like bleeding out for 4k eather but for killer adepts thats kinda needed.
Is it annoying when it happens sure, but keeping killer hostage for 30 minutes, 40 minutes or 1 hour just because you can MAYBE get slugged for 4 minutes isn't right and needs to be punished. They need to add crows or something to let the killer know where the survivor is if gens aren't touched in 5-10 minutes and by this i mean done at least little bit, not just clicked the gen and back to hiding.
Ive been in the receiving end of this behaviour now multiple times and in all of those games i've played quite fairly, but survivors wanted to be poopieheads in the end. Endgame chat i usually get GGEZ or something along those lines when the game finally finishes. Last time it happened my game which would have ended in 10 minutes took me 45 minutes due to survivors hiding. In the end when i finally found them i was so pissed i slugged them to death..💩
Post edited by Hannacia on4 -
this was exactly my point. Trying to further punish people for hiding is basically telling them that the game is over after 2 kills. If that’s the case then the game is clearly broken as that should not be the case nor the expectation for survivors to simply give themselves up when there’s only 2 left and several gens to do
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The main problem is, for survivors only escapes count as win condition. As long survivor have to fear MMR loss people will hide.
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hard tunneling (or how people love to call it "tunneling at 5 gens) is very effective because first player gets found extremely quickly and gets 2-tapped in the very first chase and/or teammates barely touched gens at all. It's not meta because it's strong, it's a strategy that stomps bad players, while being stomped by good players.
Asking for any kind of further punishment for a killer that most literally just outplayed survivors that were very bad will never be a solution to anything, it will just make the game more unhealthy
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Yeah never really got this. If your mate is wounded and you can't find him/her or already chased with multiple gens to do ... Sure I'll hide to go for the hatch. Otherwise I'd rather take the slim chance of an escape or die and continue to a fresh game, than look at grass and trees for an hour to maybe still be discovered first.
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Killers are so petty nowadays with a game already rigged in their favor (yet they still complain on the forums.) No wonder survivors will be petty back.
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Taking the game hostage till they bleed out
Arguably not taking the game hostage, as there's a timer on bleeding out.
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thats not taking the game hostage by definition and therefore a different kind of issue bringing which in this particular context is a blatant whataboutism
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Obviously you didn't read anything i wrote but you do you boo. I'm not a killer main i play both sides. I was taken hostage first i just got pissed off being stuck in a match they lost 45 minutes ago.
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I'm not saying you neccesarily are petty but so many killers are they will take it out on you anyway. The game is just in a very unhealthy state because Bhvr. refuses to fix it.
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Killers slugging isn't taking the game hostage... Huge difference between 4min bleed out and 1 hour server end time
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this, but on the condition that any downed survivors left on the ground for 60 seconds automatically recover from the dying state…
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I'm hoping that, at the very least, people realize that the Survivors don't do this because they want to "take the Killer hostage." They do it because at that point, trying to do the gens would be the equivalent of throwing the game. If they complete a gen, the Killer gets notified of their location, and that Survivor inevitably gets caught, regardless of how long they last in chase. If it's the last gen, then maybe one Survivor will get out. But that's a big fat maybe.
They hide because doing the gens would just give themselves away, and no Survivor in their right mind would want to do that.
I'm not a fan of those scenarios either, so if I'm one of the last two, I try to do a gen anyway, because I'm not a fan of doing nothing, and if I do get caught, I will gladly let go and try to give the other person hatch. At the very least, the match will be over.
So I would agree that something should be done, though I don't have any ideas on how to tackle it...
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