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Something needs to be done about the last 2 survivors taking killer hostage

IAmGilgamesh
IAmGilgamesh Member Posts: 55
edited October 21 in Feedback and Suggestions

They'll literally hide anywhere for an hour if they have to. Should Survivors accumulate crows when they're not repairing the generator under a certain threshold so they won't be able to tap the gen and preemptively disable the crows?

Post edited by Rizzo on
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Comments

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  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,386
    edited October 20

    One idea I have in this ballpark, is if each sacrificed survivor triggers a new global effect. Similarly to how the Hatch opens after the third sacrifice. But it's more in favour of giving survivors tools rather than making it harder to hide, after all survivors hide in this situations because they have no other viable options. That said I have no qualms with increasing afk crow activation alongside this.

    After the first survivor sacrificed, all gens go into 'Overcharge'. Global gen speeds are increased by 3% for each gen remaining to be repaired. If there's one gen left to do it's just 3%, if you're are 5 gens still, it's 15%. This provides some assistance to remaining survivors in the case of tunneling one out, and some hope to carry on instead of everyone immediately giving up.

    Being only 3% per gen, it's still nowhere near enough to the handicap the survivors have once one of them is out, so you can't say it's "punishing the killer for winning" they're just winning by 97% instead of 100%. And as it only comes into play after an elimination, it's entirely within the killers ability to deny it, by spreading hooks. Survivors could potentially game it by 99ing gens, but again a sacrifice has already occurred, they're already losing and it's going to be difficult to keep all those gens at 99 while also not getting hit.

    Additionally, the rate of afk crows increases.

    After the second survivor sacrificed, all survivors receive the 'Reprieve' effect, allowing them to pick themselves up from the dying state. This combats slugging for the 4K, so it's no longer a guaranteed strat to turn a 3K into an automatic 4K. It still requires time for the slugged survivors to recover so I don't see much avenue for abuse, it's essentially what we had in 2v8.

    Gens also go to the next stage of 'Overcharge' after the second sacrificed survivor, increasing it to 5% per unrepaired generator. At this stage, there's really only hope for survivors if there's only one or two gens left, so 5% or 10% repair speed bonus seems fair to me.

    Afk crows also increase further in contrast.

    After the third survivor sacrificed, the Hatch opens, as normal.

  • Laluzi
    Laluzi Member Posts: 6,223
    edited October 20

    I don't have much to say other than that I really like the sound of this. I think that the gen speed increase could increase semi-exponentially instead of at a flat rate, so that the boost is nonexistent with 3 survivors and 1 gen left (as this is a very doable situation and the killer is arguably punished for hooking instead of slugging by any amount of gen speed boost), but very high with 3 survivors and 5 gens left (as this situation is virtually unbeatable as it stands and is one of the reasons why hard tunneling is so effective), but apart from that I think this is excellently thought out and the status effects are perfectly tailored to the evolving flow of the match.

  • Rawrbot5k
    Rawrbot5k Member Posts: 79

    Bro, if you're staring at a chainsaw billy who just mowed down 2 of your buddies are you going to run at them waving your arms saying KILL ME!? Bring back OG hatch spawn rules.

  • drsoontm
    drsoontm Member Posts: 4,901

    The fourth survivor is never in checkmate: he has the hatch and the doors. That's basically 3 options with reasonable chances of survival. (I'm not talking about him being already in a chase of course. Different story.)

    About the two being checkmate, I'm only talking about the ones who hide. Some still try and, amazingly, succeed. (But in my experience only with at most two gens lefts and gens spread enough for the killer having to patrol.)

    The only problem here is essentially the ones who give up. The killer already managed to discourage them from doing anything. What is it but a victory? Everything else is wasting some time.

    But …

    If there was a mechanic that tells the killer where the furthest one is (how? details. not important). The killer can find him an start a chase. During that time the other can do whatever he wants. (Gens or hiding) If the chased survivor goes down, the last on can go for an unhook (doubtful) or wait and go for the hatch or the doors. It's basically the fourth survivor case which isn't a checkmate.

    Why the furthest one? Because it makes it longer to find him, and it's essentially a random choice.

    I also thing that, maybe, instead of a hook, if such a mechanic was in play the down should trigger a mori : no slugging for 4k. The goal is essentially to not waste time. Let's do that on both fronts. (I'm not sure about this part of the idea.)

    It's basically yet another second chance mechanic but it would solve the problem without being certain death.

  • drsoontm
    drsoontm Member Posts: 4,901

    That is what annoys me the most in this situation.

    When it happens to me of course (and I'm the one being on the gen, I'd rather go next than waste time that much).

    But when I'm the killer and I notice there is one courageous one doing something while the last one hides like a coward I'd like to scream : point me to the other one and I'll let you go.

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,386

    I suppose revealing the aura of the furthest survivor for a few seconds after the second survivor sacrificed wouldn't be too punishing. The killer could go there and would be able to tell if the survivor was hiding and have a ballpark to search. But it's essentially a free BBQ proc, so if you are running BBQ it's redundant.

    Anything that persists for longer would need to be much more measured. Maybe only revealing survivors greater than ~90 meters away.

    In either case though you're going to be disproportionately buffing high mobility killers, which is never a good thing.

  • drsoontm
    drsoontm Member Posts: 4,901

    Agreed : there should be a concede mechanic for this. Unless unbreakable or something.

    No Mither would be the tricky one to handle.

  • TragicSolitude
    TragicSolitude Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 7,340

    when I'm the killer and I notice there is one courageous one doing something while the last one hides like a coward I'd like to scream : point me to the other one and I'll let you go.

    If I'm one of the last two survivors and my teammate was not helping and the killer saw me working and didn't kill me… I won't open an exit gate. I go off, I do bones, I look for chests, I walk around taking in the sights… at some point the other survivor will go for an exit gate, and when the killer interrupts them I help my teammate as much as they helped me.

    It's rare I get the opportunity to do that, usually the killer kills the first person they find, but I'm very appreciate of a killer who pays attention and has sympathy. I try to repay what I can.

  • drsoontm
    drsoontm Member Posts: 4,901

    First I'd like to point out it's not about buffing anybody. It's like the hatch. It's a mechanic that would be there to give a chance to an otherwise utter defeat. I don't expect both survivors to stand a chance. One would, chosen randomly. To find the hatch high mobility killers also have the advantage.

    And I wouldn't give a BBQ-like proc on hook. It should only be a fix against the ones who hide for long, not the courageous players.

    It would only activate if "nothing" happens for, say, one minute after the last hook. Nothing being none of "gen progressed enough" + "chase".

    And the detection should probably be a "killer instinct" that starts proccing every 15 seconds until the situation is remedied (e.g. start of a chase.)

    I'm sure there are ways to improve this and fix all the kinks I'm not thinking about.

    Ideally that mechanic should apply on the general case. Meaning it could also solve survivors hiding from the start (it happens). It's just extremely rare.

    I always think about this failed competitor who had a fix for this: if no interaction happens between the opposing sides, they'd both get each-other's position until an interaction would happen. (That game failed because the killer role there was borderline impossible and very tiring.)

  • TragicSolitude
    TragicSolitude Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 7,340

    The hatch itself is 2500 BP. Surviving in general is 7000 BP. Surviving as the obsession adds another 1500 BP to all that.

  • IIITweedleIII
    IIITweedleIII Member Posts: 1,013

    It's real funny you even say this, considering all the survivors that whine to go next and their excuses to suicide on hook. And if you as Killer slug them for a single minute, shed tears for their precious time lost, but will endlessly out wait a killer hiding forever in the shadows.

  • IIITweedleIII
    IIITweedleIII Member Posts: 1,013

    Hatch escapes should be less rewarded considering how the survivor failed their main objective, opening gates to escape properly. Noone should be proud to be given Hatch. As if an accomplishment

  • Laluzi
    Laluzi Member Posts: 6,223

    You're not exactly wrong, but it's important to remember that survivors are not a gestalt - or even a distinct entity unto themselves. Some players are hypocrites or just consistently selfish and only care about their own experience ambivalent to the problems their behavior causes for others, but mostly it's different players with different complaints. Many of the survivors who complain about being slugged for the 4k are also killers who complain about survivors hiding forever.

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 280

    Something needs to be done about slugging for the 4k.

  • JimbusCrimbus
    JimbusCrimbus Member Posts: 1,110

    That's not taking the game hostage. There's a bleedout timer. Move on. Next.

  • JimbusCrimbus
    JimbusCrimbus Member Posts: 1,110

    That's not even a valid comparison.

  • I_Cant_Loop
    I_Cant_Loop Member Posts: 570

    People have been complaining about this frequently on this forum for years. There is no way the devs are not at the very least aware of this issue. There are multiple solutions that would be very easy to implement, but given the fact that it's been ignored for years, it's clear that the devs do not plan to do anything about it.

  • Spirit_IsTheBest
    Spirit_IsTheBest Member Posts: 1,040

    Make generator times take 45 seconds if there's 2 remaining survivors first.

  • Hannacia
    Hannacia Member Posts: 1,323
    edited October 21

    So people rather hide for an hour dropping their item in a corner or locker jumping than bleed out for 4 minutes? I don't like bleeding out for 4k eather but for killer adepts thats kinda needed.

    Is it annoying when it happens sure, but keeping killer hostage for 30 minutes, 40 minutes or 1 hour just because you can MAYBE get slugged for 4 minutes isn't right and needs to be punished. They need to add crows or something to let the killer know where the survivor is if gens aren't touched in 5-10 minutes and by this i mean done at least little bit, not just clicked the gen and back to hiding.

    Ive been in the receiving end of this behaviour now multiple times and in all of those games i've played quite fairly, but survivors wanted to be poopieheads in the end. Endgame chat i usually get GGEZ or something along those lines when the game finally finishes. Last time it happened my game which would have ended in 10 minutes took me 45 minutes due to survivors hiding. In the end when i finally found them i was so pissed i slugged them to death..💩

    Post edited by Hannacia on
  • CrackedShevaMain
    CrackedShevaMain Member Posts: 477

    this was exactly my point. Trying to further punish people for hiding is basically telling them that the game is over after 2 kills. If that’s the case then the game is clearly broken as that should not be the case nor the expectation for survivors to simply give themselves up when there’s only 2 left and several gens to do

  • BurnedTerrormisu
    BurnedTerrormisu Member Posts: 165

    The main problem is, for survivors only escapes count as win condition. As long survivor have to fear MMR loss people will hide.

  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 541

    hard tunneling (or how people love to call it "tunneling at 5 gens) is very effective because first player gets found extremely quickly and gets 2-tapped in the very first chase and/or teammates barely touched gens at all. It's not meta because it's strong, it's a strategy that stomps bad players, while being stomped by good players.

    Asking for any kind of further punishment for a killer that most literally just outplayed survivors that were very bad will never be a solution to anything, it will just make the game more unhealthy

  • Donkeybqlls
    Donkeybqlls Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 81

    Yeah never really got this. If your mate is wounded and you can't find him/her or already chased with multiple gens to do ... Sure I'll hide to go for the hatch. Otherwise I'd rather take the slim chance of an escape or die and continue to a fresh game, than look at grass and trees for an hour to maybe still be discovered first.

  • doobiedo
    doobiedo Member Posts: 307

    Killers are so petty nowadays with a game already rigged in their favor (yet they still complain on the forums.) No wonder survivors will be petty back.

  • A_T_E
    A_T_E Member Posts: 153

    Taking the game hostage till they bleed out

    Arguably not taking the game hostage, as there's a timer on bleeding out.

  • Toystory3Monkey
    Toystory3Monkey Member Posts: 756

    thats not taking the game hostage by definition and therefore a different kind of issue bringing which in this particular context is a blatant whataboutism

  • Hannacia
    Hannacia Member Posts: 1,323

    Obviously you didn't read anything i wrote but you do you boo. I'm not a killer main i play both sides. I was taken hostage first i just got pissed off being stuck in a match they lost 45 minutes ago.

  • doobiedo
    doobiedo Member Posts: 307

    I'm not saying you neccesarily are petty but so many killers are they will take it out on you anyway. The game is just in a very unhealthy state because Bhvr. refuses to fix it.

  • Prometheus1092
    Prometheus1092 Member Posts: 396

    Killers slugging isn't taking the game hostage... Huge difference between 4min bleed out and 1 hour server end time

  • ErebusSurge
    ErebusSurge Member Posts: 71

    this, but on the condition that any downed survivors left on the ground for 60 seconds automatically recover from the dying state…