Delete Final Mori from the game
All the games end the same, all time get mori.
I'm getting tired of it, there was a good time when if you played well the killer would give you the hatch but since the final mori appeared, that never happens anymore.
Comments
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It doesn't happen if you escape
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That’s not easy these days. Too much slugging.
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Yeah, I think the finisher mori was unhealthy for the game overall. Some people have mentioned that maybe BHVR could want to sell mori animations in the future, which I think could lead to encouragement of negative playstyles and potentially to a worse overall survivor experience.
I'd say that BHVR should use the finisher mori to encourage positive playstyles (e.g. only award it if tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k are avoided).
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escape?
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It looks like coming up they are going to be making an adjustment to it.
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True that. No reason to hook survivors anymore honestly. All the strong perks that activate on hook for killers got gutted and survivors have a bunch of strong perks that they get for being hooked.
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How so?
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They didnt say but they did say they want to make it healthier.
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The mori system hasn't really changed anything, you get a cooler way to get out of the match, what do you want more? Free bloodpoints for thinking that you played well? If the Killer wants to give you Hatch, they will give it to you, always worked like that.
I for one like getting moried because the animations are getting way cooler these days!
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I can see it could become a problem for some Killers if you dangle a cool animation for 4K, they will play hard to get it.
But can we really demonstrate that those players do it more now than before? Are you sure those players would not just 4K anyway?Furthermore how come you you are tired of the Mori animation, when the other animation you would before see if the Killer carrying you to the hook? it literally takes about the same time.
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I mori'd someone as Trapper last night. I really shoulda gave hatch cause watching his mori was so brutally dull and laughable.
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I have to admit that I rarely even watch the moris as seen them way too many times. Still finishing mori is fine even if its annoying when people slug and leave you on the ground waiting the other to die on the hook. I myself would not bother would just hook the other one while the other died as its faster and the mori is not that important.
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For a simple reason;
Someone that sees the Finisher Mori is very likely to have twiddled their thumbs for several minutes already while waiting for the other to die (or in case of SWF, also making the others wait on the Killer to end it), they also likely end up in a similar situation often.
For "proof" that it happens more than before, just look at the forum threads, there's been more complains about slugging for the 4k since the Finisher Mori than before, hell there are threads where people are just sick of Mori animations altogether.
The worst part is that there would be a simple way to make it healthier: The Finisher Mori only becomes available if the last Survivor is on their feet when the second-to-last Survivor dies by sacrifice or special Killer Mori (to avoid Killers simply slugging than waiting on the bleedout to down the last one after 4 minutes of wasted time) and doing so would reward extra BP (it could also become a part of tome challenges for extra variety). This wouldn't impede on people going for the 4k at all cost but would reward those that take that endgame gamble/don't play in an unfun way/challenge themselves/play for fun first.
It's likely that Mori dlc/shop is planned (alongside future Visceral skins with unique Mori) and adding more Mori animations would make it even worse.
Myself and others predicted it when it was announced: The Finisher Mori system will only increase 4k/endgame slugging and make people despise Mori animations instead of liking (or at least tolerating) them.
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Proof is hard to demonstrate conclusively. All we can really show are trends, and most of us are unlikely to bother recording our matches and statistics. So I think most of the time the best we'll be able to do is hear people's experiences.
Having said that, I've watched multiple people tunnel and slug for 4k in the last day, followed up by their mori. And tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k have become so prevalent in my matches recently that it's starting to make the game unrewarding. These trends seem to have been on an upward trajectory since around the time the finisher mori was released.
Personally, I don't even like watching moris. I was fine with them before the finisher mori update because they were pretty uncommon, but now that they happen frequently, I'd say I got tired of them very fast.
So I've found that not only has the incidence of toxic playstyles increased for me since the update, but I also end up having the match end with a mori when I'm the last survivor. The extent of all this has reached a point recently where I usually expect the killer to come back to hook and tunnel someone out in the early game, then take their easy win and slug for a 4k :(
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Tbh the annoying part is when the killer is stood on top of you waiting for the last survivor to die, which can take anywhere from 15 seconds to 2 minutes. I already lost, and I want to move on.
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It would actually be incredibly easy to show, compare the average 4K rates (games that end in 4K) before and after the patch, if the number of 4Ks is incredibly higher than average fluxuations then yes, its a problem. But if the rates of 4Ks is barely changing from the norm, then this is a case believing falsely that these changes ,have caused these 4Ks, when its can be clearly seen they the 4K rate has not moved.
Do you accept these charges? Cause heck, I would not accept this system being removed for a reason without proof.
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It would be a start. It is also generally bad to have a reward hidden behind a 4k when the methods used to obtain it aren't considered, even if the success rate for obtaining that 4k doesn't go up much.
Even if the 4k rate only increased slightly, that doesn't mean there aren't people still trying to use any means necessary to get to it. I think the statistics would need to include things like how many people are being tunneled, and how much proxy camping is increased. Those things may not necessarily lead to a linear increase in the number of 4ks that happen, but they will make the experience worse for players regardless.
An example of why the effect may not be linear could be that less skilled people playing killer may not realize that their tunneling target is the wrong one, and multiple gens pop if those tactics are used wrong. And other examples could be given related to overall player experience, tactics used, number of disconnects, etc. I think it would be quite a task for BHVR to run through all the necessary statistics on it.
That's not to say that it couldn't be done, but it would be quite an effort. It would probably be easier to see if there's a correlation between the time of the update and the overall player experience. Then BHVR could go about understanding any variations in player experience and addressing them if needed.
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Since you missed it in my post and assumed I want the system removed with no argument or compromise, I'll rephrase;
I don't want the system gone, I want it healthy. If the Finisher Mori (which would grant bonus bp) was only available if the 4th Survivor was standing (on their feet, not just alive) when the 3rd Survivor dies by sacrifice or Killer-specific Mori (no bleedout) then it would become a healthy thing for the game.
People that want to 4k at all costs wouldn't be punished and slugging for the 4k would still exist but wouldn't be encouraged. It would become a reward for winning the Hatch gamble/not playing in a boring manner/challenging themselves or simply playing for fun. Instead of incentivizing boring gameplay it would incentivize dynamic gameplay and full games with less time-wasting.
Furthermore, the point isn't that Killers 4k more, it's how they do it. There will likely be only a slight increase in 4ks (or just cases where the Killer slugs someone in endgame before forcing the other Survivors out to get a free Mori, no need to 4k) but just by reading the forums (Reddit, this forum etc.) it's already obvious that it got worse from before even though it was already very common. Hell, for some people they are just sick of the animations since they see them often now.
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Yeah, but you sorta need to demonstrate the problem exists before you are justified in fixing it?
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I think what Skillful is indicating is that the finisher mori rewards any playstyle used to get the finisher mori. And that definitely can encourage playstyles that deny some players a chance to play the game normally or encourage playstyles that are otherwise hostile to players in an unhealthy way. That would be a good thing even if people weren't seeing more tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k in their games now.
It sounds like they want to use the finisher mori as a tool to help encourage positive playstyles (by discouraging things like tunneling, camping, slugging for 4k, etc.) and rewarding the killer with the mori only if they aren't engaging in those more negative practices.
If that's what's intended, I think it would be a step in the right direction. I'd personally also like to see an option for the moried survivor to skip the animation, but that's a separate discussion :D
And it's clear that there are certainly some people who don't like the mori, its impact on the game, or both. Some of the streamers I watch also complained about these things recently (not to say streamers are the authority on it, but they're an extra opinion). I say this latter part to kind of answer your last comment and indicate that there are people who see this update as a problem.
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Just try better
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Honestly that sounds terrible, so all a survivor have to do is run in front of me to block another survivors, if I hit them it counts as tunneling and then I don't get a free mori as a cool way of ending the game, the game that I won btw.
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While you understood my sentiment @smurf, fixing tunnelling and camping aren't the goal with making the Finisher Mori healthy, those issues need fixing of their own. While the system affects tunnelling a tad bit (more reward for 4k at any cost), the Finisher Mori doesn't affect camping much.
My aim is to significantly reduce slugging for the 4k without punishing those who want to play for the 4k BUT rewarding those who take that extra risk with a cool cutscene and extra BP. The stick doesn't work alone, the carrot is also necessary. The aim is to end the game on a healthy and dynamic note rather than a slog that people just want to skip.
You can even explain it via lore: By giving a chance at Hatch (in which the Killer has an advantage by default due to superior map traversal than Survivors) they give the last Survivor a last burst of hope that the Entity can devour and, should the Survivor lose and the Entity feeds, it grants the Killer the ability to finish by their own hand and rewards them for the dessert.
Like I said earlier, apparently you didn't get my meaning/didn't read the full thing: tunnelling and camping are issues of their own, the solution I'm proposing is an attempt to incentivize keeping the game rolling rather than encouraging almost every trials ending in an unskippable 4-minute cutscene that everybody is bored of by now (literally just in the last 24 hours there's like 3 threads speaking out against slugging for the 4k being rampant that popped up, and one of them even put forth a very similar solution to my own, I even see more and more people asking for a way to skip seeing the Mori animation since they are sick of them and especially waiting for them).
The Killer can tunnel and slug all they want for their 4k win if it's their end-goal no matter the means or if you have adept/challenges/achievements, nothing would prevent or even hinder that with this solution, Survivors taking hits for each other won't save them from being downed and killed, as long as there's more than one Survivor standing then the game is effectively unchanged but you'll get a "thumbs up" from the game if you engage in a full trial and end it in a dynamic final race rather than looking over the whole map searching for a slug/hiding Survivor for 4 minutes (that you might not even find and end up having wasted all that time for nothing) just for the sake of an animation.
Because I'll be frank, I hear a few people asking for basekit Unbreakable, and it scares me. It would fix this singular problem but create dozens more in the process. You want a "solution" that would actually hinder getting the 4k? That's a prime example.
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Like I said earlier, apparently you didn't get my meaning/didn't read the full thing: tunnelling and camping are issues of their own, the solution
That comment was responding to a specific idea Smurf was presenting and my critique was adequate.
If that was your idea, then the idea is just bad, once survivors find out how to disable my Mori they will do everything they can to do it and it will be your system that gets in my way, of having a victory ending in the game I won.
In much the same way Survivor get to tea-bag by the exit gates. Survivors really need to take a break!the solution I'm proposing is an attempt to incentivize keeping the game rolling rather than encouraging almost every trials ending in an unskippable 4-minute cutscene that everybody is bored of by now.
So what? its not the same person always ending up in Mori: the chance of which is 8.75% in every game.
Also you don't have to overexaggerate, no Mori cutscene is 4min long. Its 10 seconds.8.75% chance that the ending of my game will be 5 seconds longer than normal hook sacrifice animations.
I you want to talk about wasting time, Survivors who wait at exit games are far bigger problem than this. jeez.Because I'll be frank, I hear a few people asking for basekit Unbreakable, and it scares me. It would fix this singular problem but create dozens more in the process. You want a "solution" that would actually hinder getting the 4k?
I would welcome such a solution, it can fix not only this problem but many more, and I dont fear there will be more problems along the way, I suspected the anti-face-camp system with push people to use lazy proxy camping strategies and it did, It didnt mean I had to fear progress. Do you fear progress like that?
Besides Basekit Unbreakable solves 2 other problems than Greedy 4K behaviour, it solves early game slugging and team-mates who leave you to die aswell.0 -
(Ok so since I never targeted anything else than 4k slugging in my solution, my bad if I thought it was directed at me I was beffudled XD).
How could the Survivors "disable" your Mori? It's entirely in the Killer's hands. If you're worried about Plot Twist, don't be. BHVR has proven that they can make Plot Twist not count as "health state loss" in certain cases (to prevent Plot Twist from removing STBFL stacks for example) so it wouldn't be hard to exclude Plot Twist from the actual downed status effect caused by a Killer.
If the Killer slugs for the 4k (3rd survivor dies while last has been twiddling their thumbs on the ground) then all that happens is that you don't get the basekit Mori, the Survivor doesn't get up/get a health state/instantly gets Hatch because you slugged, you can still go back and hook them normally for the 4k even though it's boring and has a risk of losing the slug and ending in a bleedout. The Killer is not punished for it, just like it wasn't for the entirety of the game's lifespan to this day.
If the Killer doesn't slug for the 4k (second-to-last Survivor dies by sacrifice/Mori/escapes while leaving the last one behind while the 4th is injured or healthy) then if the Killer wins the final race then they get a "thumbs up" and a nice animation without needing a perk.
People aren't saying the Mori animation is wasting time, from an objective viewpoint it's sometimes faster than picking up+hooking, people are sick of spending minutes on the ground doing nothing while the Killer frantically goes after the last one for the sake of an animation. I don't mind the Mori animation itself, in fact most people never minded them before, but now it became a common reward for dragging a match on and denying one person the option to do anything. The "cutscene" isn't the animation, it's the time spent on the ground.
And regardless of what any of us hopes/wants, it did get worse than before. Too many threads in too little time speaking up about it (keep in mind those threads aren't always against the Mori animations themselves, they are annoyed at endgame-slugging becoming more common because it's being encouraged).
Also, basekit Unbreakable was a total disaster in that PTB. SWF teams would torment Killers by having sabo builds (there's literally a video called "1 hour of abusing basekit Unbreakable" on Youtube) and forcing lose-lose situations by going down under a pallet with Power Struggle/Buckle Up while a teammate was hovering (slug the Survivor to go after saver? Survivor gets up for free after around 30s and runs away or is able to use Power Struggle to deny the pick-up anyway. Pick the Survivor up immediately? There's a Survivor just waiting to drop that pallet or blind you. It was disgusting.). And Killers would relentlessly tunnel one Survivor and then slug non-stop in the hopes of getting that animation or when they end up in a 2v1 they would alternate between downing both Survivors dozens of times (since they would get up by the time the other got downed most of the time, especially against weaker/slower/M1 Killers) until one bled out or both got downed, the games would end with more bleedout than normal it was so bad. Almost the entire playerbase united against it and it was scrapped (both "sides" agreeing is rare enough that it gave an idea of how disgusting it was). BHVR rightfully wants to narrow the gap between SWF and SoloQ, this took the gap and turned it into an ocean. This isn't progress, it's one step forward fifteen steps back.
I don't want a system that completely removes strategies and ways to win for anyone, I want something that encourages healthy and more dynamic games without impeding on those wanting to simply win.
And if it's too much to ask, then putting in a "speed-bleedout" button in certain situations (slugged in a 2v1, whole team-slug etc.) to speed things up a bit and avoid possible bming would be appreciated.
While Survivors being annoying at exit gates is also annoying, that's yet another thing that requires it's own looking-at.
Post edited by Skillfulstone on4 -
How could the Survivors "disable" your Mori? It's entirely in the Killer's hands.
You tell me, what are the rules clearly that you want? Survivors will be eager to get in my way, just to screw with my Mori.
HOW LONG, in how many seconds does it go?Furthermore Its literally implied by what OP said and the implication of being tired of it and you also previously overexaggerated, did you forget you called it: "an unskippable 4-minute cutscene" Even if you say it as a joke, dont get confused when people take you at your word. Its not your intentions that matter, its what you say and your actions.
Also Im not talking about about the PTB 2 years ago, I have suggested this many times on these forums now, a version idd try.
It would be basekit unbreakable which activates automatically on 40 seconds at the cost of max slugtime and then for each hooking 10 seconds are added. Should there only be 2 survivors, the slugged target can choose to Give up at 40 sec or get up.
This would also make it so the Killer automatically starts the Mori when downing the last standing Survivor, ending the game faster and preventing "Killer punishment bleed outs"And if it's too much to ask, then putting in a "speed-bleedout" button in certain situations (slugged in a 2v1, whole team-slug etc.) to speed things up a bit and avoid possible bming would be appreciated.
You mean give up button if you are slugged and only one other person is left? Yes please, I want this too.
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or the game can be better balanced so killers aren’t abusing the system.
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I recently played 10 games and won 8 of them. In almost every one I managed to save an ally with a flashlight 2-3 times
I don't know what your problem is or what abuse you're talking about2
