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Survivor is no longer fun
Comments
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They were longer in 2021 because that's when MMR got put in. The game was actually about accurate matchmaking, even though you'd be waiting for a minute or two before joining a lobby, instead of random forced mismatches. I remember all the survivors actually praising the inaccurate MMR systems the devs were testing that one time, saying "Ohhhh mahn! Dis is da best MMR system evah!" because it was giving them good teammates, and putting them against literal day 1 killers you'd see in DBD YouTube content.
Now, you did have survivor queues at the top top level, especially with sweaty SWFs, who were waiting for many minutes before getting a match, but I feel that in solving the queue times for that section of the playerbase, 1) the devs ended up creating mismatches because they'd just put a less experienced killer in their lobby, and the killer would obviously get destroyed 90% of the time, and 2) the devs didn't understand the reason why killers weren't up at that MMR in the first place. The very few killers who were up there were the top of the top, and I imagine even they got sick of sweating like their lives depended on it, just to win or even draw their matches, every match.
It's my belief that they eventually got fed up with the abuse, and most of them left the game. After that, those super strong survivors were forced to take on the next "highest" level of unprepared killers, and they got fed up and left. Repeat, repeat, repeat. So now the average killer who's crazy enough to stay with the role is actually pretty elite, so that when they face mediocre survivors, they crush them, creating the illusion of imbalance towards the killer side. But a good SWF or even a competent solo team will still beat those killers. SWF has not had a nerf throughout any of this. But killers and survivors have. It's the combination of mismatches and still-unnerfed SWF that's killing this game. Those will cause the queue times to rise the most.
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Source? My own experience. I played back then. I remember what it was like. How can you draw conclusions from Youtube videos? First of all, you have no idea what time of day they were playing. Survivors queues have always been shorter during off-peak times. Second, there is self-selection with Youtube video uploads. Nobody is going to upload videos where they are spending 15-20 minutes waiting in a survivor queue. So there's a good reason why you only see short wait times when watching Youtube clips.
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No.
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Your "own experience" is not an objective source of data that people can easily verify, while Youtube VODs are. Feel free to ignore it, my goal is not to convince you, but people can search for 2021 VODs and realize by themselves, that queue times look similar to today.
Also I'm not saying you NEVER ever got a long queue time on survivor. If you queued at 4 AM then you were going to get 4 minutes, yes. Same as today. (But even that's still not "15-20 minutes" nor "ridiculous" as you claim)
I'm saying ON AVERAGE, queues were 10-15 seconds.
Nobody is going to upload videos where they are spending 15-20 minutes waiting in a survivor queue.
I can find hundreds of VODs showing killer waiting 10-15 minutes during the 2vs8 event. Why can't you find the same for these supposed 15-20 min survivor queues?
People do not choose whether they want to upload VODs or not. That's the whole point of VODs, they are usually uploaded automatically. Hence, it's a fair sample of data.
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In terms of map redesigns, I feel like the perfect example of a problematic tile is the new L shaped pallet+window tile on Coldwind. It's not a skilled interaction. It's a rock/paper/scissors tile. The short side is so short that the killer won't get punished for respecting. Unless you egregiously pre-fire the window or L side as a survivor, you're not reacting to the respect and making a play off of that in time.
And I think that design philosophy has been gradually bleeding into many maps. Unless I'm completely misremembering, killers in 2018 did not respect pallets at nearly the rate they do today. Newer killers have been conditioned to almost always respect the pallet, because even if they respect 3 times in a row and get burned, it's a free hit once that survivor drops the pallet and they go around the short side. There's no wrong way to eat a Reese's, and there's no wrong way to play most of the newer tiles as killer.
I extend chases by 10-15 seconds so often by standing still at a junk pallet because killers are so conditioned to avoid stuns now. What is the new skill floor teaching players?
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I love this analogy lol honestly, if someone tells me the key to my enjoyment is ignoring the core gameplay mechanics they may as well tell me to just find another game to play. A few years back I was on this very forum saying that I don't focus on escapes, I focus on bp and pipping. This was before the gen kick meta, where I could actually cleanse totems and open chests for bp and emblem points without it affecting the team. But the game has changed since then (imo thanks to the several months of the gen kick meta the devs slept on) and I recognise I'm not the only person playing the match. There are other people whose enjoyment I actually do care about, and they likely want a reliable team mate so that's what I'll try to be.
Regardless, I do only play now when I have something other than escaping to gain and that's during events. If there's no event, I have zero desire to play. There's only so long that bp gains and pips are enough to keep the game from getting stale.
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Sorry this is a bit off topic, but I just wanted to say this was very eloquently written. I clearly understood the point you were trying to make and I think it was done very respectfully as well. Thank you for posting this discussion, looking forward to your list at the top when it’s finished.
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I agree with you! There could be a much more interesting and dynamic 2-survivor-remaining gameplay design.
Maybe the entity drops flamethrowers and other weapons from the sky, and the remaining survivors battle it out to the death — with the killer as the judge of who gets to escape?!
But the reality of the current game design is that you likely aren't escaping, and by the MMR rules (DBD has opaque and unclear "win" cons so you can't really blame players for trying to find some win con), a hatch is considered a draw, not a win.
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Its hard to make the game fun most of the time for both sides in an A-symm.
Hard, not impossible. It can be done — and our goal in giving feedback isn't to solve the problem. Let the pros at BHVR handle that. We're just looking to give them feedback that makes their job a little less challenging.
Also is unsafe really that bad? Doesn't it imply you need to make more correct reads to be able to play the tile. Also before anyone says anything I am not including the death pallet that is the midwich hallway pallet. Basically every pallet can be played to some effectiveness when ran right.
Fair point.
I'll expand on what I was saying, and what I've heard others say in this thread:
It's not that unsafe pallets shouldn't exist, nor that every tile should be infinitely loop-able. Like a nice, delicious salad, you have a healthy dose of each ingredient. Some pallets should be unsafe, some loops should be 50/50, others should allow the killer and the survivors to get into interesting mind game situations.
The draw of this game, at least for me, is the human element. Because killers are people, their behaviors can be read and understood — and they can, likewise, predict survivor behavior. Being on a tile that you both are trying little mind games with each other, doubling-back and using the walls to your advantage..
That's really freaking fun. When a killer catches me after a good mind game situation, I find myself saying out loud "damn, good job."
The sentiment I have, and I see other survivors in this thread share, is that this type of gameplay has been slowly patched away, favoring map design that encourages more "hide-and-seek" situations — if the killer finds you (esp. near a dead zone), you really don't have a lot of outplay resources. That's not nearly as exciting, to me anyways.
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I usually cringe at your posts, not because you're very clearly biased towards killer, but because your arguments are purely based on arbitrary metrics.
This, however, is the type of comment I wish you left more often — it's excellent.
The conversations in this forum usually turn into people trying to throw percentages and metrics at each other to "prove" that one side of more balanced than the other. The result is unproductive. People leave unhappy, and further dig their heels into their side's argument. No one wins.
Think of your favorite game.
Did you really know about all the statistics role? Were you acutely aware of queue time metrics? Did you try to convince friends to love the game by reading out intimate spreadsheet details to them?
No. You remember how the game made you feel.
Whether you died on a boss over and over, or you got stuck in a certain part of the map becomes irrelevant in the larger sense if the game does a good job at keeping you engaged and having fun. How the game made you feel while playing it is what made you fall in love.
And that's why, as much as I disagree with d87's takes on the regular, I think this is a phenomenal example of what I wish I saw more on this forum. It's much more moving for someone who doesn't play killer as much to know that killers aren't simply unhappy about losing or that they're "unhappy with just a 60% win rate", but rather the extent to which they feel unrewarded for doing their best.
Killers are not having fun despite the outcome of the game. OK! That makes sense to me!
And I can totally get on board with that. BHVR should definitely reward killers for their efforts, in a way that scales with them having to do much more work than the 4 individual survivors — yeah, makes sense!
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I think playing survivor just gets stale after a while. Survivors have limited mechanics, which almost never get updated. Most of the gameplay diversity comes from counterplay to killers. But there's not that many killers that are as unique as someone like Plague. Dash killers are fun, but everything gets old after a while, no matter how fun it may be.
SWF gives survivor gameplay some longevity, as there's creativity available. But solo queue is very restricted on how you can access that creativity. So it gets old after a while.
If I could have anything, I'd have some new survivor mechanic added to the game. It would open up new possibilities for gameplay, as well as giving more options for perks.
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I think the game is perfectly fun for both sides if you aren't new and/or bad at it. Which can't be helped, you have to be new at some point and not everyone is a great gamer or has time to put in to get to that skill level.
That said, a lot of these issues being stated aren't issues even in solo q once you're a decent player.
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Whilst your post was choc full of satire, you actually hit the nail on the head - the game should be more dynamic in how is plays as there are less survivors in the game.
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The problem is killers will never be happy if they have to struggle and grind out wins in a balanced game. That's what they mean be "being rewarded for doing their best", they mean they always want to win without having to try to hard. Also your statement at the end totally gives the game away. The idea that the killer has to do "more work" than any individual survivor shows you are either confused about how this game works or biased.
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You grief. What a surprise.
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boohoo….. slugger for 4 minutes is so bad but stalling game for 20 minutes by hiding with other surv is interactive and so fun?? XD you basically created that problem with this attitude
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how dare they win a game 1v4….
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Well i don't see it as grief, I see it as ending the match the quickest way possible. I can't make the killer kill me if they don't want me. But I can lead them to the other survivor so I can start another match and continue the fun. I think prolonging the match is griefing which is what the last survivor is doing.
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So this oft repeated tale i'v heard that the game used to be so survivor sided that most killers stopped playing is not true?
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Acting like slugging and getting picked up over and over doesn't drag out the game.
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It depends on what years we're talking about. 2016-2018? True. When I started playing in 2019 queues were massive on both sides depending on the time of the day (killer morning-afternoon, survivor evening-night).
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It's mindboggling to me how, to you, only the last survivor can possibly be griefing when he is technically still playing the game while killer obviously has no choice but to wait out the bleedout timer and then pick up the slug to wait some more. The only one prolonging the game is the killer. What is this conclusion? Literally insane.
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I can't tell for pre-2021. But for 2021:
- That most killers stopped playing? Definitely not true. The game has only been on the rise player count-wise until 2022. THEN the game became killer-sided in july 2022 and THEN the player count started to decline. If "most killers stopped playing" when the game was survivor-sided then we should have heard a peak of complaint in 2021 since that's when the game was the most survivor-sided. But most complaints you can find on the internet about survivor queue times seem to come from 2019-2020 or even 2024, there's barely anything special in 2021. I've played a lot of survivor in 2021 and my queues have never been less than 1 min, nor have I heard any Youtuber complain about it, nor have I read anything from BHVR stating that queue times were an issue.
- That some killers stopped playing, definitely. That some survivors experienced very long queues, definitely too. But there are also records of high-MMR killers experiencing long queue times, in 2021. So to me, long survivor queue times is definitely not something you could claim as being the average situation, more on the side of anecdotes.
- I can't even find any evidence in fact, that killrate has any significant effect on queue times. It is obvious it has to have an effect, but in practice it seems completely overtaken by other unrelated factors. For example, 2vs8 had the single highest queue times ever seen for killers (10-12 min average), and it was regarded as being a survivor-sided event. We don't have the killrates yet, but my guess is that they'll be around 50%. If queue times were driven by killrate, then following OP's logic, the long queue times should have been on the survivor side, not killer.
Besides, people who claim killrates ~ queue times are the ones making the claim, so they should should be the one proving it. Yet I can't find big Youtubers complaining about it or BHVR quotes saying this was ever an important factor when increasing killrates. Meanwhile I can find tons of Youtube videos showing 10 sec long queues like this or this. And I didn't cherry pick them, these are literally the first 2 videos you get when typing "DBD vod 2021".
(To be fair one person shared a 4 min queue time in this thread, I'm not ignoring it, I just think we should look at VODs because it's a more random sample, and even 4 min is not ridiculously long depending at what time/which server this person was playing)
3 - That most killers stopped playing? Definitely not true. The game has only been on the rise player count-wise until 2022. THEN the game became killer-sided in july 2022 and THEN the player count started to decline. If "most killers stopped playing" when the game was survivor-sided then we should have heard a peak of complaint in 2021 since that's when the game was the most survivor-sided. But most complaints you can find on the internet about survivor queue times seem to come from 2019-2020 or even 2024, there's barely anything special in 2021. I've played a lot of survivor in 2021 and my queues have never been less than 1 min, nor have I heard any Youtuber complain about it, nor have I read anything from BHVR stating that queue times were an issue.
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Because the last survivor isn't playing the game, they are not doing gens, not helping me recover, literally not doing anything... They might as well be a slug because they would accomplish the same thing (not doing anything other than slowly moving around the map avoiding afk crows) At least the when the killer slugs they start the count down to end the match just like when hooked, then look for the 4th, that's playing the game. If killer just humped me on the floor I'd think "go find the last guy, play the game" if they do nothing for 4min then they are as bad as the survivor.
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Survivor is no longer fun
Yea outside of events I would probably agree. No real reason to play it.
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You can't seriously be expecting the 4th to do any of that, I don't believe you. There are no tools to do gens 1v1 and for the game to end you, as the 3rd, need to die in this situation. The survivor is surviving. You, as the slug, are dying and therefore you are losing. They only need to survive the slug for the last stretch of the game to begin. They are progressing the game by watching you die. This is how the game works. Picking up the slug is throwing the game. Which means you, as a slug, ratting out the 4th is a dick move in my culture.
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Lmao playing the game by watching me die? Sorry but if the survivor (my team mate) wants to leave me bleed out and not help me then they can't expect me to help them win....at that point it's fair game. A dick move for a dick move because watching a team mate bleed out is a dick move imo. As I said before, at that point the killer has won, there is nothing to throw. Which is exactly why I don't let 3rd bleed out when I'm killer, if 4th is going to hide they can hide all they want but I will do anything and everything to make sure hiding not doing anything doesn't pay off regardless of what side I'm playing, killer or survivor. If it means ratting out the hidder as a survivor or keeping 3rd alive to find the 4th as killer then so be it.
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Survivors are not a team. Even if they were and the 4th comes to pick up you or the 3rd then what? Do you want to tell me they just go forth and do 3 gens? Or 2? Or even just 1? Your conclusion to a survivor having only one tool left and even faulting them for it is absurd. Look up what survive means.
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No, survivors have all the tools they need to succeed at the start, as the match goes on they slowly run out until they have no tools left. This apples to pallets, items even team members. You seriously expect a survivor to be able to win with no tools available to them? Not a chance, at that point they have lost. They don't have to like it but the tools they had to win have run out, chances of escaping is slim to none. Yes they can survive for an hour if they wish but they will inevitably die when server ends. There is a reason why survivors die when server ends and it doesn't give survivors an auto escape. Maybe if survivors automatically escaped when server ends then hiding to escape would applied but that's not what happens.
And it is a team game, it's advertised as 4 v 1...if it's ok to justify hiding due to advertising claiming it's a "hide and seek game" then the same argument must be said about the fact it's a 4 v 1. Not 5 player free for all. But assuming it's not a team game then I have no obligation to aid the the other survivor at all lol. Maybe you should look up what killer means.... doesn't mean willingly allow people a shot at the hatch that's for sure.
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I got no issue with killers killing. The problem arises when killers don't actually do that. In my opinion that is the most unfun part right after terrible matchmaking to get back to the topic of this thread.
I'm sure you know that hatch escape = no MMR, everyone gains and loses MMR separately and all that. So on that basis you are wrong about the team. Also it's fine to not help the last survivor as a slug because you can't anyway. But if not helping means helping the killer instead then you are griefing and a terrible teammate.
It's actually hilarious. I don't even disagree with you that much but your conclusions are ridiculously over the top. You'd rather spend an entire game's worth of time making sure one single survivor doesn't get to play the Macguffin that is hatch instead of killing 3 or 4 entirely new survivors.
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Terrible team mate? I thought it wasn't a team? Can't pick and choose, it's either a team or it's not. If it's not then it's just another survivor not a team mate. And yes I'm willing to spend the whole match making sure I get all 4k just like survivors are willing to hide the whole match in the hope for the hatch. If survivors don't want a prolonged match then all they need to do is say surrender, I kill them then it's match over. If they want to hide all match for however long then I can play it their way and also drag it out for however long. As far as I'm concerned the outcome is already established in the 2 v 1 situation, I leave it up to the survivors to decide how they want to play it. The fast easy way or slow boring way. It's not like I'm slugging at 5 gens then humping them to be toxic I'm just playing their way, long or short match, they have that choice.
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I knew you would do that, thank you. Yes, I don't think survivors are a team. You do. Yet I don't rat out my fellow survivors. You do. How does that work? Right, I know, you get what you want or you grief.
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I get what I want which is get the match I lost over with in the shortest time possible. Clearly it's every survivor for themselves, 1 hiding survivor thinks it is ok to leave me bleed out for 4min for the sake of getting the hatch. Fair enough they are in it for themselves and owe me nothing. If they are supposed to be on my team then they forfeit that alliance with me when they refuse to help for their own gain. Well if I'm being slugged or being held in a match I can't win then I want to move on to the next match. How do I do that? Rat out the survivor which I owe nothing to for my own gain. Sorry to that survivor for ratting them out like I'm sure they are sorry for leaving me bleed out while they hide but it is what it is.
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I just don't understand what you expect to get out of being picked up in a 2v1. From what you've said here and in different threads you must be running straight back to the killer hoping for him to hook you since it's a 2v1, the game is lost and thus killer deserves the 4K. What is your play after you get picked up?
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Not it my experience, no
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Seems pretty clear cut.
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Hiding not doing gens is also considered griefing by holding game hostage and seems pretty clear cut. But people do it and get away with it. Problem is proving it. If I wiggle free from killer and I run in the direction of the survivor that's hiding, prove Im working with the killer and not running for safety.
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Hiding for 2-4 minutes while the last teammate is slugged doesn't come close to breaking that rule. That would only apply as part of holding the game hostage, which waiting out a bleedout timer is NOT. otherwise every killer that bleeds out a team would be guilty.
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No I try do gens with the other survivor like we are supposed to. If we get killed doing that so be it, at least we tried. But if they are hiding then I will make noise to bring the killer to both of us to make sure they don't succeed in hiding.
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The problem is as soon as 2nd survivor dies, more often than not the last 2 end up hiding hoping the other gets caught because they want the hatch. This has been taken to the extreme many times by server ending after 1 hour. Yet no one has been banned for it apparently. Why? Probably difficulty in proving it. So like I said, prove I'm intentionally working with the killer to lead them to the last survivor. 🤷♂️ Just running for safety, oh look my team mate is here, thats a shame, sorry about that.
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From what I can tell most gamers do this. Except they do this once. After the first down there is no reason to continue as the killer is supposed to hook.There is no reason to play out 2 bleedout timers. No fun in it either.
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You already admitted to leading the killer to your teammate AFTER you were already caught and slugged. Not before. And you're repeatedly admitting intent in your posts, so idk what you're even arguing here.
"No I didn't grief my teammate, but I did it on purpose to possibly be rewarded by the killer and my teammate deserved it." HUH?
The hopeless situation of 2 survivors left at multiple gens is a separate issue and I am open to suggestions for how to fix it. One of the teammates griefing the other is not a good solution.
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Not in my experience, most people refuse to touch a gen when 2nd survivor dies because they know what's coming...hatch. and most killers refuse to hook after the 2nd survivor dies because they know whats coming...hatch. not always but a huge majority of my matches both survivor and killer are like that. I could hide as survivor like the other guy and try for the hatch but I don't have fun doing that because I know I lost the match and I'm just dragging it out longer when I could be starting a new match that I could win. So if the other guy is slugged I just walk up to the killer and if they want to kill me they can, sometimes they are nice enough to give me the hatch. I would like it if other people did the same. Beats hiding avoiding crows, beats laying slugged for 4min while team mate hides, losers lose, winner wins, next match. If I can take the loss in that situation why can't others? Not saying throw the game because that implies that they would have won. I'm just saying take it for what it is, a loss. Accept it and move on. I don't blame the killer at all for wanting 4k in a match they won.
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If I decide to crawl to the survivor and lead the killer to them, or if I am able to wiggle free then I can run and the killer can follow. Can the other survivor prove the killer intentionally let me go? Maybe there wasn't a hook nearby, maybe they fumbled it. My point is it's not easy to prove a survivor is helping the killer just as it's not easy to prove 2 survivors are hiding avoiding gens for 30min. Lots admit to doing so. Admitting in the forums of my intent is not the same as proving it in a match. Here I will admit it, in a match I would deny I lead the killer to the survivor. I would only lead the killer to my team mate if it's a 2 v 1 situation, I wouldn't do it in any other situation. I don't get slugged in any other situation that often.
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but we are not talking about picking up and dropping
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The kill rate is purposely chosen to be 60%. If maps are redesigned to have more survivor-sided loops, then BHVR would need to do something else killer-sided to move the kill rate back to 60%. If more anti-slugging is added to the game, then BHVR would need to do something else killer-sided to move the kill rate back to 60%.
In every single scenario, where survivors get a buff that would lower the kill rate, there would need to be a killer-sided change to move the kill rate back to 60%. And survivors would complain about this killer-sided change, regardless of what it is.
Because for reals, let's pretend BHVR does make a very survivor-sided change to make games less frustrating for survivors. What killer-sided change do you think is fair compensation, that is powerful enough to move the kill rates back to 60%?
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I have an idea: change the target kill rate to 50%. That would be fair!
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