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What if you could pre-sabotage hooks?
I can’t be the only one who finds sabotaging hooks a nightmare. What if you could pre sabotage hooks with a toolbox, similar to how chemical trap and blast mine work? It could activate upon hooking a Survivor. Maybe it could do the smoke bomb effect or Hinder the Killer for a certain amount of time.
Idk what do you all think?
Comments
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You know, you used to be able to 99 hooks, iirc.
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I would rather they remove the ability to sabotage hooks entirely.
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Oh wow how interesting. How did you like it? Also, what do you think about pre-sabotage that debuffs the Killer when they hook?
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How come? Do you find the sabotage aspect of Dbd cumbersome? I kind of do.
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SWFs would turn areas of the map into hook deadzones, just 99 every hook in the area then pop them when the killer approaches. It was also less viable for solos, since the base sabo time was longer so the 99ing was pretty much mandatory to get any use out of it.
That said, why would you want to give more punishment for hooking when slugging is such a hot topic?
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I am a killer main, and so I hate it when a team has a sabotage squad build. I'll go up against someone with Boil Over and her teammates have Alex's Toolbox and such, oh and don't forget Breakout and Background player.
So yea, remove sabotaging hooks entirely.2 -
I think after slugging gets fixed somehow if it is a big enough problem, I think one of the areas of the game that could be looked at is the sabotage part of the game. I think it could be updated or maybe this would be a rework? I’m not sure.
Sabotage right now is pretty strong but so hard to pull off. Which is fine, high skill high reward. But there’s so many sabotage toolbox add ons that are so difficult to use. What if you could get a sabo add on that plants a smoke bomb on the hook? It could even be highlighted or something so Survivors would know to go down in the area.
Idk, does that sound fun? At least from a Survivor perspective?
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If you sometimes got blastmined or chem trapped when hooking, on a scale from 1-10 how frustrating would that be for you?
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Mechanical changes that far need to consider more than just survivor fun. Remember that everything fun about a save for survivors is generally obnoxious for the killer, especially since its denying their progress toward their objective. Every sabo or pallet/flashlight/flashbang save is kinda like getting hit with a full power pop or pain res.
The reason I brought up slugging is the "why" of why more and more killers feel the need to do it. That objective denial paired with disincentives for hooking in multiple scenarios is why so many killers have been adopting the strategy. Both sides have to be considered carefully when it comes to mechanics like that, just like how pop and pain res have gotten nerfed due to similar annoyance from the survivor side.
In general, objective denial is a hard concept to balance properly, and BHVR's track record isn't exactly great concerning it for either side.
As someone who is photophobic, I would absolutely hate any more blinds than are already in the game as it is. Chem trap would also be a bad idea since it would make it take longer for the killer to leave the hook area, giving more excuse for people to proxy camp.
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I see, yeah a lot of what you’re writing makes sense. Is there any way that you could see this idea work in any way or in your opinion is it a complete no-go?
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As long as the effect on hook isn't "the hook breaks and the survivor wasn't actually hooked at all" (which would suuuck) I wouldn't mind a perk or two with this type of gimmick, but sabotage doesn't need to change imo.
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What debuff effects could you see working if this idea was a perk?
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Hmm…
Blindness would be interesting to disorient the killer, but I'd be concerned about the lowest level of play. Might counter too many aura perks, but I think it could be cool to test. Aura reveal could work as a sort of kindred-esque perk to show what general direction the killer heads in after the hook.
Could also try some more funky effects, like the hearing debuff that the severed ear (hag add-on) gives, same as what you hear for a bit after a flashbang. Or the survivor on hook getting extra hook time… but that stacking with reassurance/cama could be a concern.
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kindred-esque perk to show what general direction the killer heads in after the hook.
Or the survivor on hook getting extra hook time… but that stacking with reassurance/cama could be a concern.
You’re a genius.
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The issue you run into is the impact in both a mechanical sense and an enjoyment one. Survivor and killer objectives and progress are obviously at odds throughout the match, so obviously something good for one is going to be bad for the other. The reason why objective denial is such a tight rope to walk is because the enjoyment factor takes a direct hit, so regardless of a mechanic's impact, it's going to feel bad for the other side.
Similarly, even if it's not directly annoying, the actual impact needs to be measured carefully vs the time/efficiency/agency of the opponent. For example the killer's time is often more directly valuable than the survivor's due to the 1v4 nature of the game. Similarly, survivors are often punished for the misplays of their teammates through no fault of their own. All of these factors can cause good ideas to become bad ones if all of the factors aren't carefully considered.
In regards to modifying how sabo works in ways like you were considering, I think you would need to make things smaller scale and more subtle instead. If you did something like, say, plant a "tracking device" on the hook (kinda like a localized Kindred, or wire tap) could work, but it would have to have a relatively low impact to not incentivize the killer to avoid hooks outright.
The reason I would use wire tap's effect as an example is because there would be a lot of room to balance and to adjust its strength (radius, duration, etc) while it would also be an effect that wouldn't directly annoy the opponent (without knowing it is present they wouldn't know their aura is revealed) and their counterplay to it would be to avoid staying in the direct area of a recent (un)hook depending on how and when it is applied.
Personally I don't necessarily want something like that in the game (again, I'm just generally against objective denial as its a concept the game suffers more than benefits from) but I would take that kind of approach to it. Subtle and simple unfortunately is not very popular with the game's community (unless it benefits them personally ofc) so it would either become another tool for one side to abuse, another excuse for unsavory playstyles, be considered "too weak to be meta," or just directly detract from either side's ability to enjoy the game. It would basically be a mechanic for youtube content creators to make silly videos while hurting the game more than it helps.
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In general, I would avoid anything that can affect a players vision or hearing. That type of disorientation is an accessibility nightmare in a game that already has enough of those, and their effects range wildly from "mild annoyance" to "making the game completely ****ing unplayable temporarily" depending on the player. That kind of stuff is up there with things like remaping or reversing controls as "effects that should never see a live release" imo.
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In regards to modifying how sabo works in ways like you were considering, I think you would need to make things smaller scale and more subtle instead. If you did something like, say, plant a "tracking device" on the hook (kinda like a localized Kindred, or wire tap)
couldwork, but it would have to have a relatively low impact to not incentivize the killer to avoid hooks outright.The reason I would use wire tap's effect as an example is because there would be a lot of room to balance and to adjust its strength (radius, duration, etc) while it would also be an effect that wouldn't directly annoy the opponent (without knowing it is present they wouldn't know their aura is revealed) and their counterplay to it would be to avoid staying in the direct area of a recent (un)hook depending on how and when it is applied.
Honestly thank you for helping me refine this rough idea that I had. I really really like the angle of subtle and simple for this like Wire Tap for the reasons you mentioned; scalable radius duration etc.
I hear you on how much of a tightrope objective denial can be partnered with how something that feels good for one feels bad for the other.
You’ve given me a lot to think about. Thanks for fleshing this idea out with me. Even though you personally wouldn’t want it, you still found a way it could work. That’s pretty awesome of you. Seriously thank you. 😊
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With all the complaints towards slugging right now I don't think it's a good idea to further add a reason for killers to slug. If killer regularly tries to hook in matches and finds the hooks have been sabotaged I guarantee killers will abandon hooks altogether.
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Appreciate you trying to get the POV of killers when making your suggestion. The forum would be a lot healthier if more people did this.
I like your idea. Like, survivors can pre-sabo hooks, and then killer gets a negative effect when hooking on these hooks, but it would not destroy the hook entirely like current sabo. I play both sides and I can see it being fun for both sides. The effect should be powerful because survivors have to spend time away from gens. Something like a 5 sec stun + movement penalty for 30 sec. Or even an effect like "survivors can unhook themselves from the sabotaged hook after 15 sec".
There is one serious and unfortunate problem with your suggestion though, and it's that in the current state of the game, it will encourage even more slugging & tunneling. I don't think we should ever punish the killer for hooking people, but currently, sabo does exactly that, because someone going for 12-hook has 4x more chance to be affected than someone who tunnels and goes for 3. Fundamentally I consider this to be an issue with tunneling & slugging per-se, not with sabo or your suggestion, but knowing BHVR they won't get rid of these "tactics" before 2030, and until then, your idea would do more harm than good.
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it used to be a thing. you need to spend 12 second to sabo a hook. almost nobody used except player that would 99% a sabo then when killer shows up to gen, they finish sabo and than they go in corner in the map and get slugged…
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how do you like killer perks like dead man switch, deadlock, corrupt intervention and grim embrace that just block gens and remove survivor objective? i dislike playing against these builds as survivor because they remove objective from the survivor.
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There is one serious and unfortunate problem with your suggestion though, and it's that in the current state of the game, it will encourage even more slugging & tunneling.
Yeah you’re both right. My timing is really bad on this topic 😅 I just can’t help it! I find the idea so intriguing. But thanks for stopping by and participating at least. I wanted to get some feedback that would help evolve how I feel about this idea. I would say that I have succeeded thanks to you two and everyone else who took the time to reply.
Edit: Typos
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They're not healthy either? I used Pop and PR as reference points for survivor in my comparison. In general I'm against almost everything that speeds up or slows down gens in terms of loadouts, since the variance in that category alone makes gens anywhere from way too fast to way too slow. Time Crunch is one of the biggest enemies of balance in this game, as time efficacy will vary wildly between builds/killer powers/SWF/etc.
Edit: I guess you could put my stance as "necessary evils due to other necessary evils due to oth-"
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I started playing the week before Ormond was released and stopped after Pyramid Head but before Blight. I didn’t start playing again until right before Singularity came out.
I was so new I didn’t even have a concept of 99ing hooks 😂
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Oh please no you just made me think of
Never experienced it myself but I can only imagine.
Blast mine would be a fun inclusion. Would allow for some easy unhooks.
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an old strategy in soloq or swf was to run unbreakable+a bad toolbox to 99% hooks in corner of the map than die in the corner of the map. bvhr didn't like this usage of sabo so they nerfed it. it wastes killer time because killer is like forced to stay there or move on while everyone else rushes gens. the change only nerfed soloq. SWF can still die in corner and sabo hooks but it only sabo hook for 45 second now while previously iteration sabo the hook for 2 minutes.
i guess they felt that sabo was too powerful in soloq but balanced for swf. otherwise i do not understand their change in regards to that.
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It is not your problem that BHVR allows tunneling/slugging to be so game-defining that any suggestion has to contain some form of anti-tunnel or anti-slug nowadays to be viable.
Many killers are ALREADY slugging/tunneling every game and your buffed sabo wouldn't change anything to the situation. At some point we just have to assume BHVR will eventually make tunneling less important in basegame instead of twisting the whole game around it.
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Hell no, this used to be in the game and it was very unfair and could be abused to create a lot of misery for killers.
As a survivor main, I say no way and sabo is perfectly fine how it is, it is a risky play that can have high rewards and massive cost to a killer and it doesn't need to be made stupidly easy
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hooking aspect is already in the most endangered spot it's ever been, i wouldn't like to see another feature that would spit on it's grave
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If there was some sort of visual indicator for the killer so they can plan accordingly (and perhaps even regress the sabo somehow)…it could maybe be brought back. Hard, hard maybe. And maybe make it a Saboteur perk only thing, so you can't just run around with a toolbox prepping every hook on the map and have to wait for the cooldown between 99s.
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Congrats, you just created another reason to slug people.
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Pre-sabotaging was removed for a reason. I dont know what the reason is, but making it too easy to destroy hooks is very hard to balance, that much is clear. I much prefer the system as it is, but there certainly is options for perks. You also have many perks that help with sabotage these days if you find it too hard to do.
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If you make hooking even more annoying, cumbersome and punishing than it already is, guess what becomes more attractive?
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Think of it like this, what if killer's had a perk where whenever they damaged a Generator, if the Survivors reach 99% on the Generator it goes back to 0%, forcing them to complete the Generator without the Killer ever damaging it. You know it's in effect and there's nothing you can do to actually play around it but hope the other side isn't going to do it, thats what Sabotage 99-ing on hook's was like when it was present.
The Killer's had no way of knowing or options when it came to hooking with Sabotaged hook's in play, add on the massive distance lead that the Survivors who completed the Sabotage had over the killer when they decided to drop the Survivor, the lack of time loss for Survivors prepping Hook's, Maps, Oak offerings and then throw in the newer Survivor Perk's that would be making Sabotage stronger, Killer's just don't have the time in the match to play around it. Not to mention the changes made to base Hook spawns. They did add a perk or 2 for Killer's to play against Sabotage when 99-ing was a thing, but they didn't help or address any of the aspects of Sabotage and they wouldn't help if it was brought back.
Current Sabotage is in a really good place, it has some actual Risk/Reward, it's just not game breaking and requires a little more in the moment planning.
If Hard Slugging get's addressed in some capacity then adding this function back in would result in a harsh Killer roster drop until either it goes or Killer's at base recieve some major change, with the former being the most likely to happen.
Sorry if it all sounds rude, i know you didn't know it was a thing previously, but such a suggestion after experiancing match's where it was a thing from both sides really is a 14 step's back 0 step's forward sort of suggestion.
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The killer being stunned for 5 seconds “fun for both sides”?
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I guess I don’t let “annoying” stop me from imagining different gameplay mechanics since annoying can be subjective.
For instance. Sabo squads and flashlight groups are annoying to some but to others like myself I actually find all of it to be fun and silly. The idea of hooking a Survivor and getting smoke bombed sounds pretty funny.
Plus, a basekit solution to slugging could be coming so I don’t let stuff like an increase in slugging stop me from thinking about different ideas. To me, things like slugging can be singularly changed which would lower the gatekeeping of ideas that may increase slugging etc.
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No no it’s okay haha. I love to learn, no ego involved 😊 I truly appreciate the info.
Enough users have given me a clear picture of why 99ing a hook would be bad. I can respect that. I still think it would be fun but that’s okay, I believe the wisdom of the community on this.
However, what do you think about sabotaging hooks so that they inflict a minor debuff like what @Ryuhi and @jmwjmw27 mentioned? 😃
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Yeah I kind of remember this from when I started playing. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me 😊
Blast mine would be a fun inclusion. Would allow for some easy unhooks.
I would love that so much 😂
Yeah I do hope a basekit solution for slugging gets implemented. I think the 2v8 slugging solution was a step in the right direction. Ah I’m getting off topic though haha, maybe in another thread about slugging I will tag you sometime with my basekit ideas 😄
Hell no
LMAO 😂 I’m sorry that was funny. Please don’t get mad that I’m laughing lol. I hear you, thanks for giving me your PoV 😊
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I respect that.
so you can't just run around with a toolbox prepping every hook on the map and have to wait for the cooldown between 99s.
You’re giving me evil ideas now 😈 Imagine if you could but for minor debuffs? That sounds interesting…
What can I say? I’m addicted to misery 😂
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Yes I’m happy I opened this thread to get different points of view on this idea. Thanks again 😊
Post edited by HerInfernalMajesty on1 -
That'd be basically the effect of Blast Mine, while requiring a lot more work on the surv side to setup.
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How is Blast Mine “fun for both sides”? Do you honestly think killers believe it’s fun to be stunned, and not be able to see anything on their screen?
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It's not GETTING stunned that is fun. It's that there's a play to make to AVOID getting stunned which is fun.
Half of the game mechanics work like that. Pallets. Killer powers. Or are you going to tell me, that pallets aren't fun because you're getting stunned by them?
If you think Blast Mine is not a fun perk then I wish we could trade our lobbies where all my survivors try to do is repair gens. Maybe you'll find that more fun.
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By that logic, NOED is hilarious fun for survivors, because there is a play to make to AVOID being exposed.
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If it wasn"t for the fact NOED can be legit uncounterable in some situations, such as when the killer camps and the totem spawns right near the hook, then yes it would be a very fun perk. NOED has a few other issues, but the topic is not about NOED so in short: it's beginner-unfriendly and soloQ-unfriendly, teammates often ignoring NOED and just leave, which is not very exciting for either side.
But yes, apart from these issues, I would consider NOED a fun perk for both sides. I don't have problem with the exposed effect and I don't think I've seen any experienced survivor complain after BHVR reworked it in 2022. It's not "hilariously fun" though, don't exagerate, but I hope now you understand the point.
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I understand what your viewpoint is, but I don’t think it is correct.
Blast Mine is not fun for the killer. The fact that stronger perks exist, does not make Blast Mine fun for the killer. The fact that killers can choose to never kick generators, does not make Blast Mine fun for killers.Being stunned for 4 seconds is never fun for the killer.
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You used to be able to do this and they removed it because it was frustrating, unfun, and problematic for Killer side. It wasn't good game design.
It's the same reason facecamping and the genkick limit happened - because being able to do it was a bad, bad idea that frustrated people and made the game less fun. It shouldn't come back.
Frankly I'd rather sabo be removed entirely, it's always been super anti fun, it unfairly targets Killers who aren't as mobile more, and the Killer literally has no equivalent for Survivor objectives…
RE: @HerInfernalMajesty Those proposed changes to hooking would be so frustrating they'd make me quit Killer, I hated the smoke bombs both sides during Haunted by Daylight and I hate being Blast Mined because I have sensory issues due to Autism Spectrum Disorder. I don't WANT more ways to make my one objective a problem; if Hooks become more punishing I'd have to slug more. I hate slugging.
Punishing hooking is not the answer; I'd rather a perk that stuns the Killer or Hinders them if you leave someone downed too long, but buffs them if they hook. Something, anything to make hooks not a liability and reward people for doing them.
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Can you please stop constantly replying "Being stunned is not fun" as if I was suggesting to stun killers just because I love being evil or whatever. I have literally only been playing killer for the past 2 years, thanks for reminding me 3 times in a row that a killer does not like losing control of their character for 5 sec, but I actually know. The part I would like you to notice is, that there's a distinction between an unavoidable 5 sec stun that can trigger reliably without the other side being able to prevent it, which is absolutely NOT what I suggest, and a stun that happens as reward for preparing a setup and outplaying your opponent.
If you're getting stunned by Blast Mine, the survivor HAS outplayed you, it means either you constantly kick the same gen and failed to find the survivor who is sneaking to repair it, or it means the survivor has purposefully left the gen at 90% as bait (hence soft thrown the game) just to see your reaction when getting blast mined. If you think that's not a "fun" interaction, then don't complain when survs only end up doing gens and leave, because that's ultimately what the game will come down to as both sides never want to recognize any sort of outplay from the other.
It's a valid take to not like Blast Mine, fun is subjective, but saying it is not a fun perk just because "it's not fun to get stunned", would be like a killer running into every pallet on the map then complain that pallets are not fun. Yes the stun itself is not fun but you're totally ignoring the whole interaction that precedes the stun and that is the reason for the object to exist.
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A killer getting hit with Blast Mine is not an outplay.
Kicking a generator, while being fully aware that it might have a Blast Mine, is sometimes the correct and best decision. “Don’t kick generators” is not a valid counter play, especially when the benefit of a generator regressing is more important than the penalty of Blast Mine.
There isn’t any skillful decision making happening here for the killer. If a killer gets hit by a Blast Mine, it doesn’t mean they made the wrong game choice. The killer was still supposed to have kicked that generator regardless.Post edited by Coffeecrashing on1
