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Why people are acting like this game survivor-sided while killers wins majority of games?
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The 1 should always have a higher potential than any of the 4, let aloneall4. Even the best players need communication and coordination, especially when compared to a single person working independently.I don't disagree with this, it goes back to the idea of differing between what is and what ought to be that gets confused in this discussion.
I'm absolutely fine with the game being killer sided as a design decision for a number of reasons, but that's different than what is.
Otherwise people would be able to choose a killer they want in every game. Not have to switch it up or choose from a list.Then there's one huge difference in comp in that survivors know what killers they are playing against. They can create or use builds designed around that.I think this is a great point and many people forget how much of an advantage it is in comp on the survivor side to know what killer they are going to face. It doesn't just effect builds, but playstyles.
Like in the All Hallows League that just happened. Knowing from the beginning that it was a jump scare Myers or an infinite tier really tells the survivors how they need to play the game.
It's funny because the other thing people miss is that, to my understanding, the Asian comp leagues allow a lot more variety in the killer that is brought into the game. This means they don't need to put nearly as many restrictions on the game to balance out for that 'know the killer' element.
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She was a solo queue killer. But that's true of about half the roster.
She was absolutely fine against SWFs. Which is where the game should be balanced, because you cannot balance around solos.
Problem? She had a huge target on her back because chess merchant.
Yes, you're going to fart out that 2.5% statistic to which I'll point out that you're referecing a second hand stat from someone on Reddit who heard it on a stream and that even she seemed iffy about it (as well as a lot of people going 'huh, no that sounds really off).
I see a quitter in maybe 10% of my games. Probably way more. I don't buy 2.5%.
EDIT: I have to wonder if this is yet another case of a misplaced decimal.
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Comp is important and needs to be a consideration, even if it cannot be the balance goal.
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It's an A-symm you should expect (and accept) these kinds of things to the team that has more players. If you had FULL control of what you wanted to do as survivor you would need to beg BHVR for the killer bots right away. They do NOT need "fixing" only incentives to make it less appealing which BHVR seems to be doing the opposite by nerfing hook perks and gutting killers. You want more chases to people that unhooked? Ask other survivors not to bring super strong perks the killer will be forced to deal with.
There will still be the people who do it regardless but don't act like tunneling and slugging isn't done in response or advanced to what will happen in a match. But the minute you make those strategies significantly weaker (as what I assume you mean by survivors having no control) there WILL be a need for another huge perk overhaul.0 -
You can consider it, but it doesn't have much impact. Comp is very different from DbD, even high MMR. They are playing a very different game.
DbD thrives on randomness, comp tries to take randomness out.
DbD is an asymm, comp tries to balance this by both sides having a turn on each side under the same conditions (which really means all their "balancing" decisions are moot because both teams get a turn at each side).
DbD doesn't have clear win conditions, comp introduces scoring (which is different than the win conditions most of the community has). Both sides play around the scoring system in a way a normal DbD game would not.
On top of that, each comp league has their own rules and decisions. If we're going to consider it, which comp league are we going off of?
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wow you said everything id have said way better!
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The game starts killer sided, but it becomes survivor sided…
Survivor: You can play survivor for 10,000 hours, and it doesn’t matter who you pick. It’s not like each survivor has a unique power to learn (I believe the survivor you select should have a unique quirk). Their approach to their role never really changes. Variables get in the way of it, but that’s it. Survivor is very hard until you really try to win. I mean, really try. When there’s 4 attentive, sweaty players… They’ll surely win. Doesn’t matter who the killer really is. Survivors can literally troll a killer nonstop whenever they have free hook states, totems cleansed, and gens done.
Killer: You can play a killer for 10,000 hours, and the killer you pick DEFINITELY matters! Even when you understand the basics of chase, proxy camp, tunnel, slug, etc… You have to learn how to do all those things EFFECTIVELY as that specific killer. Each killer has a different approach to their role because they’re literally different… You can train for 10,000 hours with Trapper in a hyperbolic time chamber. He will almost always lose to 4 survivors with 10,000 hours each. His power sucks against anyone coordinated, and/or communicating. There’s no amount of training to fix that. The only way to win consistently with Trapper… Is picking an indoor map like Lery’s, Hawkings, or RPD. His traps have huge advantages there.
This is also why killers have tiers. Lower tiers will win less even with all the hours of training. When survivors get good they only see the higher tier killers that, with training, shut survivors down every time. The Clown ain’t shutting down anything, but Spirit is.
If the devs want to fix this game they need to make all killers have a learning curve, or a power that punishes survivors. Everyone hates Nurse because Nurse is the ideal killer. No in between. They’re either stomping you because they so good, or losing to get trials because they’re so bad. Look at how long it’s been since Freddy got a rework. Freddy is equivalent to a survivor. Like survivors there’s variables, but nothing deeper. Freddy becomes predictable, and against an attentive survivor… You lose!
Rework examples:Trickster: Rework his power to where it no longer throws really fast, but allows Trickster to ricochet unlimited blades off the walls for X time.
Trapper: Whenever survivors disarm his trap they have to pass a difficult skill check. If survivors fail they disarm the trap, but lose a health state. If a survivor is already injured they get stuck in the trap instead.
Hag: Whenever Hag teleports, and lands an attack she gets Haste. This effect will stack until it caps, or she begins to set another trap.
Pig: Allow Pig to attack while crouching. So she can sneak up on survivors, and grab them off objectives like Ghost Face. Her dash attack should increase the speed as she travels.2 -
It's a horror themed video game where you're supposed to try and survive in a survival horror experience. Of course the game is tilted more towards Killer. But is that really such a bad thing for what the game is trying to be?
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Trust me @WaveyTrey as a Ghostie main I FEEL that in my soul. I still do pretty okay, but I'm also casual, so I don't always get the world's best Survs 24/7. I'm fairly chill and even let people go. But when I DO get that really rough matchup against a stronger SWF?
Oh boy. Ohhhh boy do I feel it. Still love my stalker boye though.
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I'mma stop you right there, Comp is a specific subset of DBD and not how most people play the game. Most people are a lot more casual. Frankly I think the game needs to be balanced a bit more casually in terms of what a win is.
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I'm very curious where this comes from. I watched all streams and can't remember any of those information. Except for Skully - something is ringin' in my head that the rework was planned for late 2025, but I'm not a 100% sure.
Still.. It fits you to jump on the first thing that fits your narrative without any actual proof or thinking on your end.
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That's the direction the conversation's been moved into by forum killers. When people point out that killers are winning more than they're losing, it's 'survivors bad'. Then when you point out that high MMR has higher kill rates, it's 'Comp favours survs though, and you should balance only to the best of the best'. Then when you point at the 1K+ winstreaks, suddenly we shouldn't care about that anymore.
Literally every piece of statistical or practical evidence gets dismissed in favour of 'I -feel- the game is survivor-sided'.
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Because admitting that dbd stopped being survivor sided years ago and that the pendulum has swung the other way, would mean that their hard games can't be blamed on the game being rigged against them.
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Did you actually watch all the streams? I'm not going to just take your word for it without any proof or thinking on my end.
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If there is no current official comp scene hosted by bhvr or a 3rd party delegated by bhvr, comp means absolutely nothing and does not officially exist. Everyone understands that people want to feel rewarded for their time investment in the hobbies they enjoy, but the delusion that comp dbd is important to anyone other than those who strive to win $5 dollar gift cards from a self hosted tourney (maybe 300 people out of at least 100k active dbd players) is not good for this discussion or longevity of the game.
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I once tried and got a 12 win streak. But I also have a soft spot for survivors doing cute things and either engaging with them or letting them off the hook, so didn't feel especially bad when my winstreak ended
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Ive never watched any of the Asian comp leagues I'll have to check those out. I didn't think to throw in that not only is the killer known but so is the map as far as I know. Now, in normal DBD the map could swing either way or be a fairly balanced one but in comp there seems to be some more strict limitations on maps and killers that play on them. Strips away a lot of rng.
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If a 4K is the win condition, I've probably never strung together more than 5-6. Primarily because I never slug for the 4K, and I don't care if the last person get the hatch. I also spare the last surv quite a bit. I just don't care that much about winning, at least not enough to not care about my fellow players.
Now if a 3K is the win condition (which I think it should be), I've probably gotten 15-20 in a row. That said, I don't keep track of things like that, so that's just a best guess.
When people talk about these obscenely long winstreaks and such, we're talking about people who use strong killers, the sweatiest tactics, and most often have many thousands of hours with their killer of choice. While such things wouldn't be possible if the game were balanced (which will never happen) people can't point at those outliers and use them as examples of overall imbalance. We're talking about a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of killer players.
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I pretty much only play solo survivor and it is only my personal subjective opinion but I always felt at the lower end the game was killer sided but at the high level it is survivor sided. However many maps were quite survivor sided so unless you got lucky RNG as killer, the maps put things in the favour of survivors even if the inherent balance was towards killers.
I feel like that has become even more killer sided now, with solo queue often being pretty miserable.
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biggest winstreaks are held by people with thousands of hours on one specific killer they did them on, long tourney experience and yeah, they are usually going for the most optimal play.
Now what's the catch, matchmaking (or should i say lack of it) is playing a huge role in those winstreaks, because those people are like 0.1% of DbD playerbase playing against average players. Those people know every single macro aspect of the game and they are using that in their favor, while their opponents are just average players. Take it as if a Challenger League of Legends player plays in a Platinum match, but in this case, it's almost every match in soft cap MMR.
And that's the only reason why these winstreaks exist, because i could assure everyone that, if SBMM actually was good, and not in terrible state as it is in rn, those winstreaks would never happen.
Unfortunately, dbd community prefers short queues, now they are tasting the fruits of very low matchmaking accuracy.
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Unless I'm mistaken, that stream no longer exists. I have to wonder if that stat is yet another case of a misplaced decimal.
Didn't they say they cared about comp and want to do more for the comp scene last year?
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“Yes, you're going to fart out that 2.5% statistic to which I'll point out that you're referecing a second hand stat from someone on Reddit who heard it on a stream and that even she seemed iffy about it (as well as a lot of people going 'huh, no that sounds really off).”
that statistic was actually revealed by a community manager on these forums. You asked for proof and I gave it to you. Ofc you don’t like it because it doesn’t fit your narrative.6 -
If they did, you're going to need a source because I hadn't heard anything from any of the official sources about them supporting comp activities.
Also misplaced decimal? So Billy's kill rate is 6.8% or 680%? That doesn't make sense.
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@Equinox_One @Valuetown @iloveandhatethisgame
Not taking a position on the issue, but for everyone discussing it, here is a link to the video I was able to find, but it also has the commentary of the guy watching it. You want the Skull Merchant part about 8 minutes in, but the 2.5% specifically comes at the 9:00 mark.
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Unfortunately, the Asian comp leagues are hard to track down, most of my knowledge of them comes from the scrims between Asian and Western teams and whether they get conducted under Asian or Western rule sets. I did watch a fair amount of Asian twitch streamers once and it can be pretty interesting.
Maps - This is an interesting thing. Knowing the killer is a clear cut, major boost for survivors. Knowing the map ahead of time? I think that gives survivors a little bit of an edge as I think having an overall plan benefits the survivors more than the killer, but that one is more iffy.
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Well then this should apply to killers too and also I do not get this fantasy world of just cause people are playing with their friends means they cannot run multi this or that, yall must enjoy solo q dcs and 4 bots then, at least the chances of a swf giving up or fc is like 1% and it only happen technically when it was that disgusting skull merchant.
Ill take swf matches over solo q matches, least I actually get a match. Please remember not every swf are good or bullies or ayrun/jrm teams,just normal people trying to enjoy the game.
Your idea would probably not make the game last long just like the person who made the topic that looping should not be a thing and is unfair to killers even though so many of them recently is anti loop.
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There's the stream.
I have no idea what I just watched. They contradicted what Mandy said as well as simple common sense - 'we aren't trying to neutralize her, just reign her in a bit'.
What?
Mandy confirmed on OhTofu's stream that this was done to stop people playing her until the rework - to essentially make her nonviable.
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Thanks. That was a weird watch. I'm genuinely not sure to think because whoever was doing this one…? It's either pure corporate-speak or they just straight up lied. Because Mandy confirmed on Tofu's thing that the changes were, as others had assumed, to break SM until the rework - which is why she has a kill rate significantly below their goals now.
I simply cannot square that circle and it's making me reach for my tinfoil hat.
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No, the stat was given in a stream and your initial source was secondary. A stream where they said that 'oh no, our goal isn't to break SM, it's to reign her in slightly' (paraphrase). Which contradicts a CM statement, common sense and her current pick and kill rates.
Something is very strange here.
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Where is that stream located?
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Not really.
SM attracted a lot of people who used her to make games miserable. BHVR obviously doesn't like it when one of their characters is getting a horrific rep like that.
At the same time, the data shows that SM was overperforming massively. The "why" can be contested, but the stats cannot.
Nerfing her lowers her pickrate and pushes the people who used her to bait reactions/troll away from her and also brings her more in line with the rest of the cast. Win-win for BHVR
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Do you have the specific quote? I still see skull merchant fairly often despite the claimed intent to make her non viable, so that statement seems kind of fishy to me without a source.
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I have no words really, there's no point trying to make any kind of point if you truly believe that skull merchant was the best killer in dead by daylight history, even better than 5 blink nurse in terms of kill rate. So i'll just say good luck to you!
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Unless I'm reading this wrong, they outright said they didn't believe skull merchant was the best killer. They said the amount of skill vs reward practically eclipsed every other killer, which they are correct in saying. I would advise not misrepresenting that point because it does look like you didn't read their comment at all.
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Regardless of how "easy" something is, the power level matters. Something could be really "easy" to do but if it isn't the best then it wouldn't be the best. Skull merchant had that kill rate at high mmr. So unless you believe that high MMR players also don't know how to play literally any other killer then there's no way that SM had a kill rate that high.
The argument itself doesn't hold up either because there are plenty of killers that just "drop something at a loop and you have to leave it" Artist exists, pre-nerf knight existed, dredge exists, yet none of those killers had massive kill rates either. I'd argue knight was even easier because you would get chased by 2 things at once which was effectively impossible to deal with as 2v8 showed us, and he had better map control than SM. So why wasn't knight also having a massive kill rate too? Are you trying to say that somehow dropping a guard instantly at a loop is somehow massively more difficult than dropping a drone that it amounts to having a kill rate that is 15% less than SM?
Thirdly, "the devs said that it wasn't from people giving up" any source on that? I'd be willing to be either there is no source, or the source is misconstrued, they probably said it only accounted for some percent of "hook suicides" which would be a vastly different thing than "giving up" also if they have data on "giving up" then they certainly have the capability to stop people from "giving up" which they haven't done and previously already declared that "they cant do it because its hard to detect" so which one is it can they detect people giving up or can they not?
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All of those Killers also have to slow down to drop their powers at loops, with Dredge and Knight both essentially standing still.
SM, I think, doesn't slow down when placing a Drone and there's no real way to see if she's going to. All those other Killers give a small heads-up that they are using their powers, SM does not. You don't have time to run and she can continue to zone you.
Shutting down a single loop wasn't impactful way back when, but nowadays with how maps are, yeah…Some of them only have Shack. I'm not sure it makes up the entire 15%, but it probably does account for some of it.
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People keep blaming it on chess merchant but her second iteration was even more annoying considering she was the biggest stat stick in the game, She had 6 drones that have a pretty decent zone to give her significant uptime on undetectable, she had constant speed boost, her drones almost guaranteed youd be hit leaving a loop or staying at a loop, a punishing hindered effect for eating too many, invisible scan lines that were really hard to see for a lot of players, 6 drones that stay where they were if you deactived them (which only lasted for a short while).
Her kit was overloaded as ######### and she didnt get slowed down or anything for using power so where you could make distance against other killers when they miss there was nothing to miss on SM.
She was the most annoying/problematic killer. Her annoyance was not just from chess merchant
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Again, you are telling me that at the time that knight, taking less than a second to drop a guard, but having a massively better power for actually chasing the person, and controlling the map, made a difference of win rate being in the 50s vs the 70s? You are really gonna tell me that you TRULY believe, that the kill rate wasn't that high because survivors were giving up, and that she was simply that strong? It really astounds me that people can actually believe that SM was that strong. Stronger than 5 blink nurse ever was? The strongest killer in dead by daylight history?
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Did you not watch the 4 comp players play the "chess" skull merchant? A game that lasted more than 55 minutes, and if it would have lasted 5 minutes longer, all 4 survivors would have lost to the match time limit of 1 hour. I'm sure everyone would rather play a game against a nurse that is over in 60 seconds because nurse has 0 counterplay against someone who knows what they're doing versus playing one of the most grueling matches to ever exist.
If someone only needed a basic understanding of a killer, while being able to pressure multiple parts of a map, while also having built in slowdown and suboptimal path mechanics like her drones did, with only the general knowledge of how to play killer, versus a killer like nurse which needs hundreds of hours to fully reach a point where that "skill" would outweigh just locking in skull merchant, a lot of people would consider that a powerful killer. Just because nurse can on paper win every game she's in, doesn't mean that other killers aren't a tier below the "nurse/blight" tier when talking about killers.
Knight did have a massive kill rate, that's why he has been nerfed and reworked at least 3 times since his release.
Yeah the source is you can watch the dev stream that was linked above. Not sure how you can say "that's uncredible" when the source is legitimately right there.
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For me it all depends on who I pick. If I pick Doctor I get the navy seals. I did get 100 wins in a row. This was ages ago when Oni had came out. I am learning Artist. That demon rift skin is simply too amazing.
The fact is killers shouldn’t have tiers imho. They should each be reworked. Made very strong, and oppressive in some way. However, with teamwork/attentiveness can be defeated.
Clown is a very good example; For example, if Clown uses Kerosene it should give a visual effect for all to see. Say, extra blurry vision in the gas with blindness status.When we mix chemicals under the sink bad things happen. Mustard Gas. Chlorine Gas. Etc. His power doesn’t do that. It just putters out. That’s braindead. Whenever Clown reloads he’s mixing whatever is in his bottle. For a short time the Tonic now has more volatile effects when the gas is released. Say… Kerosene + Bleach… Can cause the gas to burst into flames when thrown near a fire source. Dealing damage when survivors stand in it too long. The flames burn down dropped pallets. Bleach + Sulfuric Acid can inflicts Deep Wound on injured players in the gas. Etc.
All killer powers should be interactive. The devs could make all killers really good like this. They just don’t want to.
Post edited by WaveyTrey on1 -
I am telling you that I think SM's Drones are better at locking down a loop than Knight's Guards due to the un-telegraphed ability to instantly drop a Drone, yes. I am also saying that I think this is significant in newer maps due to the unfortunate nature of their loop quality.
If you actually read my entire reply, you'd see that I said, "I'm not sure it makes up the entire 15%, but it probably does account for some of it." This is in reference to the fact that I do not know everything. I do not, contrary to your apparent belief, have access to every SM game ever played nor am I withholding that information from you. I do, however, have some level of experience and the ability to look at things from multiple angles. Due to the information presented, where SM had a 70% KR without Survivors killing themselves on first hook or DC's, this leads me to consider other possible alternatives, SUCH AS the one presented above.
If you'd actually engage in a real discussion, instead of repeating your own strawman argument ad nauseum, we might get somewhere.
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Quote on?
I'll see if I can find the Tofu stream where Mandy confirmed that the goal was to stop people playing her (paraphrase). No idea how you're seeing so many - I'm looking for the infographic but her pick rate is around that of Twins or Hag if I recall and her kill rate is 54% gross.
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thank you!
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I'm referring to the contradiction here. Stream says they wanted to (paraphrase) nerf her down a bit but keeping her viable. Mandy at the very least strongly implied that no, they wanted to absolutely break her so people would stop playing her, and the new kill/pick rate stats which I'm actually struggling to find for some reason bear the latter out way more than the former.
Again - there's something here that smells funny to me.
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Is this a "strongly implied because that's the way I'm reading it" or is it a "Straight up said"
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That was old SM before the last round of nerfs.
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Which is what we were all talking about…
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Unless the devs gave you the credentials for their database and a data dictionary, all we have are the numbers they've given us. Why would they lie about it and nerf her? They want fewer people buying the original chapter?
What's more likely: the same devs who cannot do basic QA for years have pulled off a grand conspiracy to manipulate stats, or the rubric for killer strength that the community completely made up based off of feels is slightly off?
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I think there's is so much to consider here. My thoughts on why the game is extremely hard as a solo queue (which I play exclusively) is communication. They call is a SWF on this game but it's really just people who communicate. Look at every other game they all have communication. So I think to maybe help a little bit with solo queue give the game voice chat or proxy (would be fun I think) . This never happens in games I play (no invite to a way to be able to communicate.....discord or Xbox party etc). Then you have to look at what some of the perks mean against a SWF vs solo queue. This games perk system is to me questionable. For instance the killer perk knockout (just using this perk as a example) who does this perk work against? And the reason it's used for? Slugging and only works on solo queue players. So it only punishes solo queue players. Why does it exist (I also know slugging has been a topic on the game as of late too). That's just one perk there's a few more but goes to show how communication vs non communication can affect a game. I really do think this game has gone completely killer sided ( don't flame me.I play the game for what's it's worth always trying to improve my knowledge). Let's go into SBMM and having constant quitters. Does having people quitting have an effect on your match making? In constant 1v3's what's the chance of you raising the quality of players you get queued up with? It seems pretty low. I'd compare it to Apex legends match making system (example..... having a teammate who won't play as a part of the team and then you are always 2v3 which ends badly 100% of the time mostly because you can also be 3rd party that will come.) this absolutely effect SBMM in Apex. I think killers have gotten to a spot as well that their abilities ignore the only game mechanics the survivors have to make it a game (pallets & windows & gen) I'm constantly getting hit through both pallets and windows the games way of me running the killer (with consistent ping of 48) and gen slow down perks need to be looked at again. What purpose do the fog whispers serve? Is there a PR rep at BHVR? If so I'd replace all of them at some point the bring some new ideas to the game. I've also heard that BHVR wants this to be a esport game ? It's far to late for that. It will never happen the balance of the game is very questionable. I played another asymmetrical game for a very long time in the competitive scene (Evolve) and it was far better balanced then DBD and it fell flat on its face for many reasons but I'm sure it was people unwilling to accept the true nature of the game where as DBD is nothing more than a party game.
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